Anyone have years worth of ZC carnivorous?

[ForTheHunt]

Basically my question is. Does it work long term or will you eventually get sick and possibly have heart problems?

Because I've tried raw vegan for a few years and it does not work.

[Hannibal]

Look at the indigenous Innuits, who have lived off the land and consumed all but meat and fat.
They were robust with the most stronger teeth on the earth.

[TylerDurden]

There is "The Bear" who claims decades of (cooked) ZC consumption. Unfortunately, he also describes things like getting throat cancer which doesn't make one too trusting of cooked ZC.

Lex seems to have been doing ZC for several years now, and is doing fine. Some others have done it for a couple of years or so without real incident.

I'd say it's been proven that one can do ZC long-term given anecdotal reports.My only quibble is with the issue of organ-meats(ZCers seem to frown on them mostly) and the raw vs cooked and grassfed/grainfed issues - I'm not convinced that a diet consisting solely of cooked, grainfed muscle-meats is remotely healthy.

What does seem to be a concensus view is that there is a difficult transitional process the body has to go through re adaptation to zero-carb. If you do badly on zero-carb, you will generally find out after 3 weeks or so that that transitional weakness will get worse and worse over the next several weeks, while those who do well on ZC report getting more used to it and adapting fully.

[klowcarb]

Charles of ZIOH (where I post) is over a year, as is Suzanne and a few others. I am now at 9 months.

I have had no heart problems, no illnesses. Just great energy, more leanness, better muscle retention and defintion (while increasing calories and cutting back exercise), very clear skin, and zero hunger (no hypoglycemia, etc.)

Fatty meat is great for your health; carbs are poisons to our systems.

[lex_rooker]

Basically my question is. Does it work long term or will you eventually get sick and possibly have heart problems?

I’d say that the answer depends on how you implement ZC.  If you think you are going to eat only muscle meats and fat from grain fed meats at your local market, I think you will ultimately end up with problems.  If you eat grass fed meats and include a small amount (10% or so by weight) of a wide variety of organ meats (liver, kidney, tongue, heart, spleen, pancreas, tripe, etc), then your prospects of being successful with ZC for the long term are probably pretty good.

ZC is not magic.  There are significant trade-offs between ZC and VLC and I think VLC (5% to 10% of total calories from carbs) is probably the better choice for most people as long as they eat grass fed meats and organs as stated above and are willing to follow Paleo principals when choosing the carbs they eat.

I’m sure you’ve read the glowing reports.  Here’s the potential bad stuff.

A good percentage of people that attempt ZC go through a period of several months that stresses the adrenals causing rapid heart beat, arrhythmia, and palpitations.  If there were some hidden heart problem this could conceivably cause death.  I went through this as did Craig, Martin, and several others.  We ultimately got over it, but in my case it took 8 or 9 months – maybe longer.

There is also an issue with cramping.  Many of us experienced severe muscle cramps, especially night time leg cramps, that lasted for a period of 3 to 9 months depending on the person.  These, too, finally went away.

I experienced kidney stones as I think did another person on this forum.  Research shows that there is a significantly higher incident of kidney stones for people eating ZC than the normal population.  My guess is that this is due to a reduction in water intake, but no one knows for sure.  I can tell you that they are excruciatingly painful.  Like a dull knife ripping through your gut with someone pouring alcohol on the wound.  The pain is also relentless.  It can go on for hours at a time with no let up.  In my case, morphine didn’t kill the pain but did make it just bearable.  No other pain killer would touch it.  I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

My experience shows that the symptoms of some metabolic based diseases can be alleviated, ( high blood pressure, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, some IBD, etc), but you aren’t cured.  If you suffered from any of these problems and go back to eating your old diet you will quickly begin to suffer from the problems again.

Some issues may be prevented by a ZC or VLC diet, but once progressed beyond a certain stage, the symptoms can’t be reversed.  My own experience shows that BPH and baldness fall into this category.

There is a widely accepted belief that if you eat ZC you can’t gain weight.  This is not true.  During the first 18 months or so, your body is adapting to burning fatty acids rather than carbs as its primary fuel.  Initially it is very inefficient and many of the calories you eat are discarded.  However, after 18 months or so, your body will have adapted and you will again gain weight unless you keep calorie intake equal too or less than energy expenditure.   In all fairness, it is easier to keep calories down as fat is very satisfying and you naturally eat less.  But don’t fool yourself into thinking that just because you lose lots of weight when you initially go ZC or VLC that this will go on forever.  Unfortunately it doesn’t. 

Finally, I don’t believe that there is any evidence that this is a life extending diet.  What little I’ve been able to find on the subject seems to point to an average lifespan of around 85 years for those eating ZC or a similar diet.  The plus side is that you are very active right up to the end and maintain mental acuity, while many who eat a more varied diet heavy in carbs often live well into their 90s but suffer a high incidence of debilitating strokes, physical degeneration, and dementia for the last 10 to 15 years of their lives.  Again, it’s all about trade-offs.

You will also discover that the ability to do intense physical work (heavy weight lifting, wind sprints, etc) will be reduce, but activities requiring endurance will be enhanced – more trade-offs.  Including some carbs (VLC rather than ZC), seems to offer the best compromise.

I have been ZC for about 4 years now and have kept good records of my experience.  You will find much of what I’ve learned along the way in my journal if you are interested.  In the future I will probably take my own advice and transition back to VLC as I have found little difference in the overall health benefits of ZC over VLC, and VLC may indeed have the upper hand for the long term over a deep ketogenic diet like ZC.

Hope this helps,

Lex

[William]

A good percentage of people that attempt ZC go through a period of several months that stresses the adrenals causing rapid heart beat, arrhythmia, and palpitations.  If there were some hidden heart problem this could conceivably cause death.  I went through this as did Craig, Martin, and several others.  We ultimately got over it, but in my case it took 8 or 9 months – maybe longer.

I started ZC as a desperate attempt to be rid of potentially deadly arrhythmia and palpitations. It worked, and the only recurrence was when I deliberately ate cooked carbs for three days.
I did notice the rapid heartbeat, but to me that was trivial after the arrhythmia.

There is also an issue with cramping.  Many of us experienced severe muscle cramps, especially night time leg cramps, that lasted for a period of 3 to 9 months depending on the person.  These, too, finally went away.

I had calf cramps - IIRC it was less than 3 months.

[carnivore]

I’d say that the answer depends on how you implement ZC.  If you think you are going to eat only muscle meats and fat from grain fed meats at your local market, I think you will ultimately end up with problems.  If you eat grass fed meats and include a small amount (10% or so by weight) of a wide variety of organ meats (liver, kidney, tongue, heart, spleen, pancreas, tripe, etc), then your prospects of being successful with ZC for the long term are probably pretty good.

ZC is not magic.  There are significant trade-offs between ZC and VLC and I think VLC (5% to 10% of total calories from carbs) is probably the better choice for most people as long as they eat grass fed meats and organs as stated above and are willing to follow Paleo principals when choosing the carbs they eat.

I’m sure you’ve read the glowing reports.  Here’s the potential bad stuff.

A good percentage of people that attempt ZC go through a period of several months that stresses the adrenals causing rapid heart beat, arrhythmia, and palpitations.  If there were some hidden heart problem this could conceivably cause death.  I went through this as did Craig, Martin, and several others.  We ultimately got over it, but in my case it took 8 or 9 months – maybe longer.

There is also an issue with cramping.  Many of us experienced severe muscle cramps, especially night time leg cramps, that lasted for a period of 3 to 9 months depending on the person.  These, too, finally went away.

I experienced kidney stones as I think did another person on this forum.  Research shows that there is a significantly higher incident of kidney stones for people eating ZC than the normal population.  My guess is that this is due to a reduction in water intake, but no one knows for sure.  I can tell you that they are excruciatingly painful.  Like a dull knife ripping through your gut with someone pouring alcohol on the wound.  The pain is also relentless.  It can go on for hours at a time with no let up.  In my case, morphine didn’t kill the pain but did make it just bearable.  No other pain killer would touch it.  I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

My experience shows that the symptoms of some metabolic based diseases can be alleviated, ( high blood pressure, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, some IBD, etc), but you aren’t cured.  If you suffered from any of these problems and go back to eating your old diet you will quickly begin to suffer from the problems again.

Some issues may be prevented by a ZC or VLC diet, but once progressed beyond a certain stage, the symptoms can’t be reversed.  My own experience shows that BPH and baldness fall into this category.

There is a widely accepted belief that if you eat ZC you can’t gain weight.  This is not true.  During the first 18 months or so, your body is adapting to burning fatty acids rather than carbs as its primary fuel.  Initially it is very inefficient and many of the calories you eat are discarded.  However, after 18 months or so, your body will have adapted and you will again gain weight unless you keep calorie intake equal too or less than energy expenditure.   In all fairness, it is easier to keep calories down as fat is very satisfying and you naturally eat less.  But don’t fool yourself into thinking that just because you lose lots of weight when you initially go ZC or VLC that this will go on forever.  Unfortunately it doesn’t. 

Finally, I don’t believe that there is any evidence that this is a life extending diet.  What little I’ve been able to find on the subject seems to point to an average lifespan of around 85 years for those eating ZC or a similar diet.  The plus side is that you are very active right up to the end and maintain mental acuity, while many who eat a more varied diet heavy in carbs often live well into their 90s but suffer a high incidence of debilitating strokes, physical degeneration, and dementia for the last 10 to 15 years of their lives.  Again, it’s all about trade-offs.

You will also discover that the ability to do intense physical work (heavy weight lifting, wind sprints, etc) will be reduce, but activities requiring endurance will be enhanced – more trade-offs.  Including some carbs (VLC rather than ZC), seems to offer the best compromise.

I have been ZC for about 4 years now and have kept good records of my experience.  You will find much of what I’ve learned along the way in my journal if you are interested.  In the future I will probably take my own advice and transition back to VLC as I have found little difference in the overall health benefits of ZC over VLC, and VLC may indeed have the upper hand for the long term over a deep ketogenic diet like ZC.

Hope this helps,

Lex

Thank's Lex for your honesty.
Why don't you eat any seafood/wild fish ?

[goodsamaritan]

I'd have to second that inquiry.
If innuit is an example, they have access to sea food.
Not just fish, but sea lions, walruses and whales.
There must be something very different about those creatures.

It was funny that Burger King has a documentary with arctic people in it.
They were made to taste the Burger King and Mc Donalds hamburgers and Burger King was voted as tasting better.

But the last scene was asking a man which tasted better, burger king or seal meat, and the man adamantly said it was seal meat.

But we city folk have no access to seal meat.

I wonder what kind of nutrition in seal meat vs beef.

[alphagruis]

I'd have to second that inquiry.
If innuit is an example, they have access to sea food.
Not just fish, but sea lions, walruses and whales.
There must be something very different about those creatures.

It was funny that Burger King has a documentary with arctic people in it.
They were made to taste the Burger King and Mc Donalds hamburgers and Burger King was voted as tasting better.

But the last scene was asking a man which tasted better, burger king or seal meat, and the man adamantly said it was seal meat.

But we city folk have no access to seal meat.

I wonder what kind of nutrition in seal meat vs beef.

Yes this might be a very important point when the inuits are invoked as an example of a people "thriving on ZC".

-Arctic sea mammals are not land mammals and one difference one can see is precisely the fairly different fat composition of blubber as compared to beef fat: less SFAs and more PUFAs (typically 10 to 20% and a few % only respectively). Moreover see mammals are wild and land mammals as beef are usually domesticated.

-Inuits most likely ate all the plant foods (berries, sea weeds...) they could gather in their harsch environment. So they were not ZC but rather VLC.

-Inuits ate actually a large variety of foods over a one year period (fishs, sea bird eggs, organs from mammals etc) and not just something like 80/20 ground beef all year round.

[Hannibal]

Inuits ate actually a large variety of foods over a one year period (fishs, sea bird eggs, organs from mammals etc) and not just something like 80/20 ground beef all year round.

That's really true. This kind of constant eating 80/20 of ground beef is definitely not natural.

[Paleo Donk]

Lex, thanks for the thorough and honest reply as you are one of the very few with more than a year of zc experience. I'd like to comment on several things though. Overall, at least in this post, you seem quite cautiously optimistic, making sure to point out the negatives while not necessarily giving all your positives their fair run. I suppose you'd like to err on the side of caution when it comes to touting something as a cure, possibly since you've gone through so many diets before and they have all failed you in one way or another.

ZC is not magic.

I think this depends on how you define magic. Your pre-cancerous lesions on your back have completely disappeared without treatment. This seems pretty 'magical' to me. Your BPH, although not cured, has gotten better every year and the medication you need is the lowest dosage you've had since you've started ZC. Your hair has stopped falling out and even gotten a little thicker. Your nails are tough and flexible. And there surely are many other benefits I am forgetting. To me this is magic, since it takes no modern medicine, no real thought, just eating animals.  

Some issues may be prevented by a ZC or VLC diet, but once progressed beyond a certain stage, the symptoms can’t be reversed.  My own experience shows that BPH and baldness fall into this category.

Sure, and it won't regrow a lost kidney or testicle either.

I experienced kidney stones as I think did another person on this forum.  Research shows that there is a significantly higher incident of kidney stones for people eating ZC than the normal population.

From what I can tell the kidney stone was the only real negative associated with this diet and obviously a very serious matter. What research shows that kidney stones develop in ZC'ers. Are you referring to the epileptic kids? They consume heavily cooked grain-fed meats which could change everything. Is there any info on raw ZC kidney stones? You failed to mention here that there is a possibility that the stone was there from your previous years eating your other diets that led you to horrible health. ZC very well might have decreased the size of the stone enough where it was free to pass out. Since, literally every other aspect of your health has increased rather dramatically I would guess that this is actually it and would wager money that the next CT scan you get in a year shows a reduction of calcification in your kidneys. I'll even lay you 2-1 odds if your up for a friendly wager.

There is a widely accepted belief that if you eat ZC you can’t gain weight.  This is not true.  During the first 18 months or so, your body is adapting to burning fatty acids rather than carbs as its primary fuel.  Initially it is very inefficient and many of the calories you eat are discarded.  However, after 18 months or so, your body will have adapted and you will again gain weight unless you keep calorie intake equal too or less than energy expenditure.

I agree that on ZC you can gain weight. Though the 18 month mark is based mainly on your experiences and is certainly not something that can be applied to everyone. I stopped secreting extra ketones after about a month when I went ZC. From what I've read on the ZC board, the older you are and perhaps the sicker you were the longer it will take to fully adapt.  

Finally, I don’t believe that there is any evidence that this is a life extending diet.  What little I’ve been able to find on the subject seems to point to an average lifespan of around 85 years for those eating ZC or a similar diet.  The plus side is that you are very active right up to the end and maintain mental acuity, while many who eat a more varied diet heavy in carbs often live well into their 90s but suffer a high incidence of debilitating strokes, physical degeneration, and dementia for the last 10 to 15 years of their lives.  Again, it’s all about trade-offs.

I can't imagine there be evidence either way whether ZC extends modern day life expectancy. But, if you are less likely to get cancer, heart disease, etc then I'd guess there is a great chance you are extending your life. Do you know why a healthy ZC'er would suddenly die in their sleep if they had no disease?

You will also discover that the ability to do intense physical work (heavy weight lifting, wind sprints, etc) will be reduce, but activities requiring endurance will be enhanced – more trade-offs.  Including some carbs (VLC rather than ZC), seems to offer the best compromise.

This is the one area of the diet that concerned me the most. I searched endlessly through the medical journals, without success, to find a good answer here. There was only one study done on ZC athletes that I am aware of with that being the 6 weeks bicycle study done by Phinney. There was one line in it about the cyclists not being able to sprint as well, but this was not directly measured, just an observation. The study was done for only 6 weeks as well so the cyclists might needed a lot longer to adapt. They were also probably fed cooked grain-fed beef which might make a difference as well. So, I don't take too much from that I study

 I never was ZC long enough to get the full impact of whether my performance would have decreased, but my progress was almost surreal on ZC. I lifted heavy weights for low reps and progressed nearly every work out. Even now, if you check my journal, during my first week back being ZC I am lifting very heavy weights. I even had one of my best days ever at the time when I am supposed to be my weakest. So with regards to weightlifting, at least in the short run (less than 6 months) I have not been affected. I haven't really sprinted but will be getting involved playing sports soon so I should be able to test this as well. Also, Charles sprints frequently and has an incredible 400m time for his age, so there is evidence that neither sprinting or weightlifting is compromised.

I’d say that the answer depends on how you implement ZC.  If you think you are going to eat only muscle meats and fat from grain fed meats at your local market, I think you will ultimately end up with problems.  If you eat grass fed meats and include a small amount (10% or so by weight) of a wide variety of organ meats (liver, kidney, tongue, heart, spleen, pancreas, tripe, etc), then your prospects of being successful with ZC for the long term are probably pretty good.

I think eating cooked grain-fed meat over the course of a lifetime is a potentially mammoth mistake and the factor that is most highly overlooked on the ZC board. They have gone this far but won't eat the best quality meat??? This makes no sense to me. Are you really willing to risk your health on this potentially huge factor?

[Tom G.]

Again, it’s all about trade-offs.

 This is the way I see all aspects of life, not only diet. Another idea that I hold is that, "The best is the enemy of the good." In other words, "sometimes in people's search for the best, they over look the good."

 You have given a good report on both positive and negative aspects. A person has to decide for themselves whether the changes they have made are of more benefit to them then their old methods. Many of us have come from lifestyles which were not the healthiest before, and have sought an answer to our problems, whatever they are for each individual.

  For the most part, starting to eat VLC 6 years ago provided me with the greatest benefit of health in a very short time frame. What I have experienced in the last few months by trying to go further has not helped me. It has created new problems and questions. with no apparent benefits. Trying to go all pemmican a couple of months ago surprized me when I failed. You may have also read Nicola's post, and mine in ZIOH  about my experience with eating a large amount of crab meat. I can't tell you how scary it was to have dark brown urine. Since I told my Doctor, friends and family what happened, try telling them the problem isn't diet related. They have all heard about Atkins' destroys kidneys. Since I am the only one they know of that has eaten this way long term, I am their proof that it is true. These 2 events are a possible turning point in what I may be doing in the near future.

  I have also found that eating ZC and raw foods in public is like wearing a neon sign board. I don't like to seek attention, but it is unavoidable when a person eats this way. If I sneeze, it must be because of what I am doing. The fact that my BP, cholesterol levels, weight and other problems got better, it must be because I'm unique, not because I'm eating better. So, sometimes the trade offs are more like a consequence rather than a direct relationship. The social aspects of this style of eating is important to me. It was far easier for me to justify VLC.

  It is very much about the trade offs. It is time again with the new year approaching, to re-evaluate what has worked, and what hasn't for me.


   Tom

[lex_rooker]

Why don't you eat any seafood/wild fish ?

Fish and poultry don't satisfy my hunger like red meat.  They are way to lean.  I do eat them on occasion, but not often.  I don't have access to blubber or seal fat and I doubt that the Inuit would do well without these traditional foods as well.

There is also some evidence that late paleo man ate mostly terrestrial animals and very little fish even when living close to the ocean.   Humans are terrestrial animals and this makes me believe that most of their food would have been terrestrial as well.  Native Americans depended on Buffalo herds and elk on the North American plains, and humans originally evolved on the African Savanna where there are large herds of animals and few fish.  To assume that fish is our ideal food because a single group of humans that have little access to any other source of food is eating what is available in their environment is not all that convincing to me.  I certainly believe fish is better than wheat, but not convinced that it is better than red meat from grass eating animals.

Just my opinion.  You'll have to make up your own mind on the matter,

Lex

[Neone]

I do not believe in the whole 'trade off' thing going ZC..   Unless the infrequent berries i was eating during my ZC time was giving me superpowers, I found no lack of energy anywhere.

[cherimoya_kid]

I do not believe in the whole 'trade off' thing going ZC..   Unless the infrequent berries i was eating during my ZC time was giving me superpowers, I found no lack of energy anywhere.

Some experience it more than others.

[PaleoPhil]

Charles of ZIOH (where I post) is over a year, as is Suzanne and a few others. I am now at 9 months.

....

Charles claimed here - http://blog.zeroinginonhealth.com/?page_id=2 - that he started ZC in the Fall of 2007.

The traditional Inuit avoided the kidney stone problem on VLC, including the Greenland Inuit at just 1% of calories coming from carbs. In my research I've come across some clues as to how they managed this. They reportedly drank ungodly amounts of water and had unusually high magnesium levels. Water and magnesium are two of the most consistently cited preventatives of kidney stones.

Eating ZC requires knowledge and taking precautions, probably including ingesting plentiful water and sufficient magnesium, and perhaps keeping calcium and phosphate relatively low (common ingredients in stones that can be consumed by ZCers; oxalates, another common stone ingredient, are apparently low in any ZC diet). My hope is to incorporate some carbs in the future, for variety, social reasons, and to add a safety margin. My recent experiments with testing some carbs have so far not been as promising as I'd hoped. It was quite surprising to see how quickly I get negative results from small amounts. I'm thinking that my carbs of the future will have to be the most Paleo I can find--perhaps wild berries and a couple types of low-sugar wild-growing domesticated fruits in season. Luckily I have access to these. If it goes well I might also add a little bit of low-sugar organic fruit in season and maybe even dry some of the berries for out-of-season eating. I'm planning on testing this more extensively this summer.

[klowcarb]

Lex, my ability to do intense weightlifting has INCREASED on zero carb.

[klowcarb]

I don't see the purpose in ever eating carbs. We weren't designed to eat them. Social reasons, variety, etc. are all acculturation. Meat tastes better than any paleo carbs. I have no problem going out and being social.  To each his own, but I think thinking of carbs as a "someday reward" is the wrong outlook.

[carnivore]

I don't see the purpose in ever eating carbs. We weren't designed to eat them. Social reasons, variety, etc. are all acculturation. Meat tastes better than any paleo carbs. I have no problem going out and being social.  To each his own, but I think thinking of carbs as a "someday reward" is the wrong outlook.

What makes you think we are not designed to eat carbs?
Carbs are everywhere in the nature, from plants to animals. Life would simply not be possible without carbs. One cannot imagine that our paleo ancestors never eat them, depending of course on the location and season of the year.
I believe many can't handle carbs (like me) because of the poor quality of today's carbs food. Modern fruits and vegetables are nearly empty calorie, with too much fructose, which makes them toxic, especially for compromised metabolism.

[William]

What makes you think we are not designed to eat carbs?

Experience.
Ate carbs, got sick. Ate pemmican, got well.

Bear had 47 years of experience when he wrote that carbs are poison.

[carnivore]

Experience.
Ate carbs, got sick. Ate pemmican, got well.

Bear had 47 years of experience when he wrote that carbs are poison.

What a ridiculous generalization!

[TylerDurden]

Experience.
Ate carbs, got sick. Ate pemmican, got well.

Bear had 47 years of experience when he wrote that carbs are poison.

Hmm, and both the Bear and you advocate smoking.

[carnivore]

Experience.
Ate carbs, got sick. Ate pemmican, got well.

Bear had 47 years of experience when he wrote that carbs are poison.

Bear does not look healthy at all. And he got cancer...Not the best example to follow...

[William]

Bear ain't raw, and there were no anti-smoking loonies in the paleolithic.

I would not be surprised if it were discovered that they also drank coffee.

[wodgina]

The bear has the disadvantage of about 400 sickly generations of ancestors. Thats 90% of the equation on his looks.