Kidney Stress

[MrBBQ]

Hey all,

I've been a way for some time again due to travelling and family events, although I've been managing to carefully maintain my raw, low-carb omnivorous eating style amongst the onslaught of invitations to eat of the fire that burns...

Well, in the last month, I noticed dark circles under my eyes (I eliminated them years ago with raw veganism), which could've been a number of things, including overtaxed kidneys according to some traditional medicine.

The point is now that I have pain/burning proximal to both kidneys (bilateral, posterior, low abdominal pain), which is disquieting. I find these two manifestations to be more-than-coincidental (dark circles, kidney pain) and I'm searching some of the online literature/anecdotes for a clue about the appropriate next step.

Has anyone transitioning to RAF from medium-term raw vegan experienced a kidney challenge?

Just out of curiosity, I've been checking the pH of my morning urine (not sure how this may be relevant), which has been between 3.5-4.0 - quite acidic.

Currently, I've just been eating 200g fatty meat + 100g fat (all grass-fed) each day, along with some berries, avocado, coconut meat etc. and plenty of water (2-3 litres).

Is it possible that the change to meat+fat is eroding some kind of oxalate precipitation in the kidneys, which is working loose, or otherwise buildup/precipitation of uric acid crystals?

I read about Lex passing some stones recently, which may have been oxalate-based (eroded over some time on ZC), so I'm wondering if my enquiry is particularly relevant.

I'm confused because Tyler said to me in a recent post that nobody here had experienced renal/kidney problems, yet here I am after only a few months on raw meat+fat with renal pain (not superficial either - the first thing that I notice when I awaken in the morning).

If anyone has any constructive commentary about this phenomenon, I would greatly appreciate their contribution, thanks.

Best,

Scotty

[TylerDurden]

Well, this is the first time I've come across a claim linking rawpalaeo to renal issues. I mean, people do come to this diet with renal issues resulting from past cooked diets etc., but they  go on to resolve those on this diet.

The only thing I could think of was that I only got dark circles under the eyes when I consumed raw dairy or when I went zero-carb, but you're doing neither.

[MrBBQ]

Hey Tyler,

Thanks for the quick response, which is appreciated.

I will try to greatly simplify my raw omni diet and continue with the same moderate meat+fat quantity - sometimes it's easy to overlook the finer inclusions and I've just read that cinnamon can affect the kidneys due to both its moderate oxalate content, coupled with its coumarin content, which is a liver/kidney toxin in significant amounts. I have (recently) regularly been sprinkling cinnamon on my fruit, which is something I didn't mention. I read that cinnamon has the effect of regulating blood sugar (e.g. post-prandial) and blood lipids, so I was including small amounts, although I usually wasn't careful to measure how much (sometimes maybe a full heaped teaspoon).

In any case, if it transpires (after exclusion) that it is the cinnamon that's causing some pain (hopefully it will subside - argh!), I will be somewhat the wiser.

I seem to have the ability of walking blindly into these overdosing scenarios and paying heavy prices.  Woe is me, hehe...

Thanks again. 

[goodsamaritan]

There are fruit that are hard on the kidneys like star fruit. Check your fruits.

Your water may be hard on the kidneys too.  What water are you drinking? I think 2-3 liters a day is excessive.  Try home distilled water for some time temporarily.

[MrBBQ]

Hey goodsamaritan,

Thanks for the great advice.

My fruits are just the non-exotic, low-glycotic-rate ones - berries, freshly-squeezed lemon/lime juice blended with its fibre/pectin, mature coconut meat, avocado, occasional apples from my parents' trees and whatever else I can find organic in my favourite fruit shop across town. Sometimes I eat half a mango or papaya with berries for some variation, but that's maybe twice per moon.

Very astute question to ask about the water...

I distill my water, which drips into a large vessel containing celtic/sun-dried sea salt and some large quartz crystals. I then usually add some blended coconut water+pulp for extra minerals along with different ionic minerals that I'm experimenting with.

Ultimately, I remove all of the total dissolved solids from the municipal water (humans can't be mineralised by dissolved rocks), add back my own ionic minerals with moist sea salt and then structure the water with quartz crystals. I can't say that the celtic salt from today's oceans is totally without impurities, but I accept its most valuable ionic minerals nevertheless.

I've also been considering a way to infuse water with blended sea vegetables (for even more minerals), but that's another elaboration - a little bit like the method of preparing irish sea moss.

I highly suspect the cinnamon as the causal basis for my bilateral kidney pains, especially considering that I've only just started including it and I was also ingesting coumarin from turmeric tincture as part of a liver flush preparation (which never affected me in the past). Typically, moderation is the key, especially with something as spicy/potent as cinnamon. I'm just too bloody excessive with things sometimes - reminds me of Patrick Timpone's deprecated motto "if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing (drum hit!)"...

Having said that, I was also experimenting recently with toning down the acidity of my lemon/lime juices with a teaspoon of french green clay and a capsule of shilajit (also for some extra minerals). I don't actually know how bioavailable the minerals in that kind of sun-dried clay are to humans, but it seems the minerals are pretty bioavailable. I've also heard of a few other RPDers including clay as a source of minerals for tooth healing (along with the bone meal), aside from the apparently small requirement for minerals alongside meats+fats+organs.

I like lemon/lime juice (with its fibre), which does not spike my blood sugar, plus it's nice and sour (although I usually rinse my mouth after drinking it through a straw). Maybe grapefruit is also a good choice, but I don't find the organic incarnations too often...

[PaleoPhil]

between 3.5-4.0 - quite acidic.

That does seem unusually low.

[goodsamaritan]

How about keeping things simple?

pure distilled water (no salt, no minerals, no clay, no nothing)
one serving of fruit.
raw protein, raw fat.

The ideal proportion between the main food components of  protein, fat and carbohydrates should be in the range of :

1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.5

as stated in http://homodiet.netfirms.com/

[jessica]

not sure about in the UK but all cinnamon sold in the US(organic or not) is not really cinnamon unless it is labeled ceylon cinnamon, otherwise it is cassia bark with some oil on it....

http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm

[MrBBQ]

Hey Jessica,

You're right because I've just bought some genuine ceylon cinnamon from a trusted wholefoods supplier and it was really different to the previous supply that I'd been using up until yesterday. I'll go easy on the cinnamon anyway forthwith, although I do like its flavour and as you rightly asserted, the cassia bark is the problematic product (high in coumarin).

Best,

Scotty

[MrBBQ]

Hey goodsamaritan,

Do you reckon it's a good idea to drink water without any dissolved minerals? I realise that rainwater has very low TDS, but I've read from many schools that it's not good practice to drink 0 TDS (artificial) water, which is the reason that I add some TDS back with electrically intact salts. What's your thoughts?

Nevertheless, I agree with the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle. The optimal diet reference is also a useful link (even though it's not raw paleo), thanks.

Best,

Scotty

[TylerDurden]

There's a lot of good info on the dangers of totally distilled water as that does indeed leach out nutrients. I myself experienced this as when I drank only distilled water, I could never slake my thirst.However, mineral-water seems fine, by comparison.

[goodsamaritan]

Hey goodsamaritan,

Do you reckon it's a good idea to drink water without any dissolved minerals? I realise that rainwater has very low TDS, but I've read from many schools that it's not good practice to drink 0 TDS (artificial) water, which is the reason that I add some TDS back with electrically intact salts. What's your thoughts?

Nevertheless, I agree with the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle. The optimal diet reference is also a useful link (even though it's not raw paleo), thanks.

Best,

Scotty

I do not like plain water.  If I have plain water, I squeeze a calamansi or lemon in it before drinking.  All those minerals in the waters are inorganic and just lead to a load on the kidneys.  I feel that the minerals we need should be in the food we eat, not drink.

Gorrilas hardly drink water.

[MrBBQ]

There's a difference between the minerals from rocks (inorganic) and minerals from living colloids/substrates (organic - ocean water, fruit/plant juices etc.), as you rightly assert goodsamaritan. However, I don't have enough coconut water laying around, nor enough heirloom/organic, juicy, low-glycaemic fruits that won't unbalance my blood sugar or mouth acidity. Above all, I got into this sordid affair to save my gradually dissolving tooth enamel (a saga that begun a decade ago, which presently continues with the same vigour!).

With unripe and hybridised fruits, it's impossible to avoid excessive organic acids/sugars, plus I don't have my seasonal heirloom fruit-growing operation online yet. ;-))

One of the best ways to rehydrate is to consume one's own urine, but I realise that's a taboo practice not to be advocated around here (open minds, of course). Urine is structured and has its complement of anions/cations!

Many people say that the kidneys are efficient with no unnecessary net mineral loss with fluid intake, yet I'd be willing to bet that if you simply fasted on distilled water, a TDS meter of the urine would confirm loss of dissolved solids each and every time - hence the need to add back some bioavailable ionic minerals and bring a little structure...

Anyway, back to the topic...

I read that any water heated above ~70 degrees celsius / ~160 degrees fahrenheit invokes leukocytosis (cooked water like cooked food!), even when it's subsequently cooled - this is absolutely the case with boiled-condensed (i.e. distilled) water. I reason that this is down to the loss of natural structure, plus there are virtually no anions/cations in the water, so it almost tastes caustic (my pH meter says it's ph 9-10, which I find a little weird). If my taste buds don't trust something, I don't...

So what's my strategy to avoid both the murky contents of plastic-bottled spring water and cooked TDS-skeletonised, unstructured distilled municipal water?

I drip the water straight into a vessel with a layer of sun-dried ocean water in the bottom, surrounded by piezoelectric quartz, thereby dissolving ionic (very bioavailable and no net effect on kidneys) minerals from the word go as well as bringing natural structure back to the water (apparently!).

Very high TDS water is a burden on the kidneys because the dissolved minerals are not bioavailable, so they're only good for excretion, or worse still, for deposition in joints/organs etc.

Personally, if I lived close to a spring and that water didn't taste too "hard", I'd collect the water in glass bottles every week/month, but I don't have the facility. Saying that, apparently, some stories report that cultures did very well (longevity-wise) on both low and high TDS water, so this net load must be natural/normal for a fully evolved double set of kidneys.

I might return to trying local spring water (Buxton in my case, which is the closest with moderate TDS) as an experiment to see if my thirst is better quenched than the mild coconut-saline cocktail I'm drinking, although I still subscribe to this idea of dead/stagnant and living water, whereby some people are running their water through a vortex to emulate nature's water courses. I do find it disgusting and exclusive though that the charge is so much for something that naturally comes out of the ground and ultimately destroys the environment with its packaging/distribution - sacrilegious rape!

I might find a way to start collecting/filtering rainwater, considering the high rainfall around my parts...

By the way, I'm merely vocalising what's in my head as a means for constructive thrashing, rather than antagonistic chant-downs - in that vain, I like what you've been suggesting and of course, I'm learning every day...

It would be int'resting to know whether the aboriginals drank much locally-harvested spring water, or obtained hydration from fruits, given the latitude - then again, today's fruits and today's bottled spring water are far from anything akin to our genome's original habitat...Not that I'm survivalistic or anything...

I will try to keep the lymph circulation around my kidneys moving, drink some chanca piedra and other diuretic teas, as well as some cucumber+lemon juice and maybe things will subside in the absence of that cheap&nasty cinnamon equivalent.

Thanks again my good contemporaries. ;-))

Best,

Scotty

[djr_81]

I drip the water straight into a vessel with a layer of sun-dried ocean water in the bottom, surrounded by piezoelectric quartz, thereby dissolving ionic (very bioavailable and no net effect on kidneys) minerals from the word go as well as bringing natural structure back to the water (apparently!).

This bothered me in the water thread and now here as well so I have to ask for clarification.
The vast majority of ocean salinity is as a result of solids dissolved in runoff on land which is eventually transported to the oceans. You stated earlier in the last post that these dissolved inorganics are at best poorly bio-available. Yet here you are adding these same dissolved solids back into the mix in the form of sea salt. I understand that there are additional organisms in the sea water as opposed to the runoff but I fail to see a huge difference.

[MrBBQ]

Why let anything bother you, hehe?! ;-))

Sun-dried ocean salts with their full complement of charged trace minerals, charged potassium-balanced sodium chloride and organic lifeforms aren't the same as rocks dissolved in rainwater runoff. Magnesium in sun-dried, hand-harvested (well, by wooden rakes) salt is particularly important in the ratios (not present in crystal salt).

Ocean water minerals are dissolved ions, whereas fresh water minerals are less so - hence the freshness! Of course, our kidneys cannot deal with so much sodium that we can survive drinking pure sea water, but mixing with a ratio of fresh/pure H2O assists with this little caveat (without the dissolved rocks).

It's the same reason that these salts from long-past inland seas (e.g. pink Himalayan rock salt) represent a danger to life - because they're rocks that've long crystallised out of substrate, losing much of their trace mineral balance and content of organic life...

By all means, add ground up rocks to your organic garden, but not to your water - hence the point about high TDS water presenting an excretion/deposition burden. Animals can't get their minerals from rocks - only from ions (charged particles), which are provided by consuming flora/fauna in various forms (yum!).

Maybe there is some contamination from runoff water at certain points in the ocean (e.g. near estuary), but that's not considered here!

Also, there's this recent point about nanobacteria, which use this kind of inorganic mineral to build their encapsulating bodies/shells and ultimately turn us to stone from the inside out (e.g. vascular calcification) - int'resting, to say the least...

Anyway, at least that's what's supposed, but I can't give references to studies etc.

Just stay away from the rocky, dry white/pink stuff...and high TDS water (or maybe not - just enjoy what works for you - efficacy rules!).

For now, I'm sticking with the H2O+ions+structure, although I may experiment with moderate TDS spring water, if I can find a source that delivers in glass bottles. Most plastics turn out to be harmful on an everyday basis (a la endocrine disruption), but of course, personal efficacy rules!

By the way, where's the water thread - I'd like to read it...

Cheers,

Scotty

[djr_81]

By the way, where's the water thread - I'd like to read it...

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/primal-diet/aajonus-doesn%27t-believe-in-drinking-water/
I thought you had mentioned how you were preparing your water in that thread but upon review you didn't. Maybe it was in a journal?

Maybe there is some contamination from runoff water at certain points in the ocean (e.g. near estuary), but that's not considered here!

I'll defer to your knowledge about most of this as it's been a long time since I studied any Chemistry or Biology but you should really read up a little more on where the dissolved minerals do/did come from. It's not an inconsequential percentage of the salinity, it's the majority.
Here's the first link Google brought up but the web is loaded with pages explaining "Why are the oceans salty?".

Please don't take this as trying to pick apart your logic though; I'm just curious as I drink 95% of my water as well water from a very shallow (~20 foot) artesian well in the floodplain of the creek behind my house and I thrive on it. It is incredibly "hard" water though and very quickly builds up a film and/or white deposits on anything. We even have to clean the shower head twice a year in vinegar due to the build up.

[MrBBQ]

I don't really have any direct knowledge about most things - I'm merely repeating/synthesising from stuff I've read, hence my motto efficacy rules!

Yeah, you must've read it elsewhere in another thread because I have written it down (merely because I'm often appealing for someone to enlighten me about my naivety!).

Personally, I like the simplified description on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawater), which is where I obtained some of my knowledge - not that it's the most authoritative source.

Simplisitically, I read that minerals in non-ionic (colloidal) form are more taxing to uptake/digest, so they're less bioavailable and to some extent become taxing to the kidneys and find themselves deposited throughout the organism (or raw materials for nanobacteria!).

I have never looked at studies or peer-reviewed journals (or done the pathology/histology myself), so I can't say that what I relate is completely factual - it's just what I've read from various sources that seem well-intended and non-profitable.

Another thing I said is that I'd read about cultures exhibiting longevity while consuming high TDS water, so unless you're experiencing any health challenge, you may continue (although you can consider alternative perspectives/practices for your own experimentation).

Previously, I would just fill a few jugs of tap water and let them sit on the counter overnight.

Typically now, I'll cook/distill a few litres at a time and the boiler chamber is generally encrusted with a lot of white/brown ground minerals within only a single batch, leaving a very crystal clear water...

I might cut out the celtic sea salt for a bit and just use these concentrated de-salinated ionic drops that I have - see if I feel any different with the reduced sodium intake (although I like the chloride for my stomach acid). I'm glad that we had this discussion now...

I think I read somewhere that because of the presence of the right ratio of magnesium in the salt, the sodium is excreted without any taxation/expenditure of minerals/water from the body.

I reckon you're pretty fortunate to have a natural well, rather than treated water+chlorine (and no plastic bottle in between).

Also, wasn't traditional salt one of the only cargo that was selectively imported (traded) into self-sustaining populations, even though it's reputably non-paleo (however useful to the organism)? After all, in their right ratios (that is, forming the substrate of life-supporting oceans), they are simply trace ions that we happen to have in our bodily fluids...

[djr_81]

I reckon you're pretty fortunate to have a natural well, rather than treated water+chlorine (and no plastic bottle in between).

It's got it's ups and downs.
Things, like pumps, wear out quicker as a result of the hardness of the water (we never used softener during my childhood and I wouldn't consider it now). We also have the occasional critter that gets in the well and can't get out (my mother and I can pick up the smell/taste of death in the water when no one else in the house can).
On the bright side it's great for gardening, our pets, and our bodies.
It's funny, I moved away for a couple years and only just moved back here with my wife. While away we had municipal water and it was awful. I took to drinking bottled water all the time and had to add ionic electrolytes for the water to be adequately quenching. Since moving back I've been drinking the well water and only just realized I no longer use any of the electrolytes-the water tastes fantastic without them. 

Also, wasn't traditional salt one of the only cargo that was selectively imported (traded) into self-sustaining populations, even though it's reputably non-paleo (however useful to the organism)? After all, in their right ratios (that is, forming the substrate of life-supporting oceans), they are simply trace ions that we happen to have in our bodily fluids...

I believe it was the preservation properties that spurred the trading of salt but other benefits might have contributed.

[raw-al]

I am not certain that consuming salt is a good idea. Aajonus suggests how to deal with a salt craving on page 144 of "We Want To Live".
He says:
"It causes sodium molecules to clump in the blood. That reverses ion magnetism and pulls the guts (so to speak) from cells. The affected cells can no longer eat anything and they shrivel and die. Four little bitty grains of salt - including sea salt - destroy approximately 2 million red blood cells. It takes at least three hours to replace the blood cells and about 24 hours to cleanse the dead cells. During those processes important nutrients are leached from the blood and body. As a result salt speeds aging.
" The craving for salt is symptomatic of a mineral deficiency. To satisfy he craving for salt, I suggest that your wife eat any or all of these foods: fresh raw tomatoes, no-salt-added raw cheeses, fresh celery juice and raw fish. Eating raw shellfish, like oysters and clams, several times per month is particularly effective in quickly correcting a mineral deficiency.) These foods will supply a concentrated balance of minerals that the body can utilize easily and pleasurably."

[pc701]

Maybe its because your eating too much protein. I think maybe some people cant handly that much protein, what else can it be? you ate raw vegan which is low in protein and now your eating very high in protein...

[pc701]

try eating more fruits and vegetables and lessen meats, that is what i am experimenting/doing myself and the dark-eye circles seem to have faded a bit. If milk isnt a problem for you then drink more milk and lessen meat.

[raw-al]

I looked a little further in Aajonus V. book We want to Live and it described your symptoms and the solution. It's on page 282-3.

[ForTheHunt]

I looked a little further in Aajonus V. book We want to Live and it described your symptoms and the solution. It's on page 282-3.

can u tell us in short what it is?

[raw-al]

There are two aspects to what he says. The first concerns:
"Kidney infection (a detoxificaton) is chracterized by pain originating in the middle back that reaches around to the lower abdominal area, frequent urination, sometimes blood or pus in the urine, nausea, and vomit.
Throughout the day of infection, drinking a large glass of good mineral water with three tablespoons fresh lime juice and beet or 1/2 cup raw vege juices (that includes 1 oz beet juice) with 3 oz of good mineral water 1/2 hour before eating has nurtured and soothed the kidneys. (The juice or water were mixed or drunk separately) Raw lime and beet juices and fresh raw corn on the cob regulate bacteria levels so that infection does not become excessive. If there is blood in the urine, it is best to stay off the feet and remain sedentary."
The second concerns:
"Kidney stones are crystalized cooked vege-fat resins and crystallized hydrogenated fats and oils and mineral salts that collect and form clusters and clumps in the kidneys. I have had many kidney stones analized. Most were composed of food additives such as flavour and fragrance oils. Many were composed of crystallized oils from syrups and candies.
Most stones are formed during the sleep. KS cause pain originating in the mid back that reaches around to the lower abdominal area, increased urination that sometimes contain blood or pus, sometimes sharp pain in the kidneys, nausea and vomiting.
2 to 3 hours before sleep, abstaining from sold food and drinking a mixture of 1 cup warm raw milk with 4 tbsp raw cream and 2 tbsp unheated honey relaxes kidneys during sleep. Drinking a blended mixture of 1/2 c raw unripe pineapple, 1 tbsp. raw unpasteurized apple cider, 3 tbsp. fresh raw lemon juice and 4-6 tbsp raw coconut cream helps gradually dissolve KS. Or 6-8 tbsp of fresh raw lemon juice or lime juice mixed with 6 tbsp raw coconut cream 2-3 hrs before sleep gradually dissolves KS. Eating at least 1/2 c of raw fat (ie. avocado or unsalted raw butter) daily usually prevents large kidney stones.
When stones are being dissolved, there may be some discomfort. Drinking plenty of raw milk to which you have added 4-6 tbsp raw cream and 2 tbsp unheated raw honey per 28 oz. of raw milk and staying in bed for 1-2 days alows the body to use all of it's accessible nutrients and energies for dissolving stones, making the process easier."

[goodsamaritan]

Hey all,

I've been a way for some time again due to travelling and family events, although I've been managing to carefully maintain my raw, low-carb omnivorous eating style amongst the onslaught of invitations to eat of the fire that burns...

Well, in the last month, I noticed dark circles under my eyes (I eliminated them years ago with raw veganism), which could've been a number of things, including overtaxed kidneys according to some traditional medicine.

The point is now that I have pain/burning proximal to both kidneys (bilateral, posterior, low abdominal pain), which is disquieting. I find these two manifestations to be more-than-coincidental (dark circles, kidney pain) and I'm searching some of the online literature/anecdotes for a clue about the appropriate next step.

Has anyone transitioning to RAF from medium-term raw vegan experienced a kidney challenge?

Just out of curiosity, I've been checking the pH of my morning urine (not sure how this may be relevant), which has been between 3.5-4.0 - quite acidic.

Currently, I've just been eating 200g fatty meat + 100g fat (all grass-fed) each day, along with some berries, avocado, coconut meat etc. and plenty of water (2-3 litres).

Is it possible that the change to meat+fat is eroding some kind of oxalate precipitation in the kidneys, which is working loose, or otherwise buildup/precipitation of uric acid crystals?

I read about Lex passing some stones recently, which may have been oxalate-based (eroded over some time on ZC), so I'm wondering if my enquiry is particularly relevant.

I'm confused because Tyler said to me in a recent post that nobody here had experienced renal/kidney problems, yet here I am after only a few months on raw meat+fat with renal pain (not superficial either - the first thing that I notice when I awaken in the morning).

If anyone has any constructive commentary about this phenomenon, I would greatly appreciate their contribution, thanks.

Best,

Scotty

Maybe you are overdosing on protein.  Lessen the protein and up the fats and carbs.  Dr. Henry Bieler says that kidneys are damaged by undigested protein.  So don't overdo protein even if it is raw protein.

I do meat free days when I feel I've overdosed on meat.  A diluted juice fast works well for me.  I felt some kidney load when I experimented with a high raw protein diet lately.  Juice fast and reduced protein intake gave me relief.

Always adjust as you see fit.