Author Topic: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!  (Read 88522 times)

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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #200 on: April 02, 2010, 02:53:32 am »
You are getting about 300g of protein a day not anywhere near the 1000g that Red supposedly got. Most of this protein is converted to glucose which is then converted to fat. You could actually lower protein down quite a bit to burn even more body fat. Since your protein intake isn't extravagent its going to take much longer than 3 weeks to show any symptoms that constant nitrogen waste will produce. In fact, you may never show any symptoms with this protein intake. Some body builders might get this much for decades and be fine.

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #201 on: April 02, 2010, 08:55:05 am »
it's not about fat.  It's about eating "lean meat".  The primitives knew they could not survive on lean alone.  Go look up the content of a steak on nutritiondata.com.  I guarantee it doesn't have all of the vitamins and minerals.  You go on a diet of lean muscle meats, you will create an imbalance in your body.  Why do you think it's so important to eat liver?  That's where the copper and vitamin A is.  Keep eating this way and you'll be as nutty as the vegans.  No carnivore eats muscle first.  First they eat the organs, fat, and muscle and bones last.  You think your average bodybuilder knows how to grow?  I bet most of these guys wouldn't grow if you take their supplements away.  If your diet was so great you wouldn't need to take a multi.  You will not keep growing on lean meat, eventually you'll deplete all your vitamins and minerals, then you'll start dying. 

300g of protein is pretty normal and average.  That's about 2lbs. of steak and a dozen of eggs.  I don't buy the whole protein turns into fat business.  Glucose can only turn into fat if there's too much glucose in the bloodstream, which happens after eating a box of "goldfish".  I don't think the liver makes excessive amount of glucose.  I have not seen my blood sugar shot up that high after a high protein meal.  I don't think I put on that much fat when I was eating lean either.  Your body will upregulate protein metabolism though, which explains for the increased body heat, hence why protein is thermogenic. 

There's a reason why the old school bodybuilders mix their protein with cream.  Fat soluble vitamins are important bro.  Can't make cell membranes or testosterone without good old saturated fat. 

I like it that you were hardheaded like I am.  You'll figure it out for yourself when you get sick.  Good luck eating lean. 



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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #202 on: April 02, 2010, 10:46:52 am »
Protein is very slowly converted to glucose. Slow enough so that insulin can act on it properly without blood sugar moving much if at all. 300g of protein per day is no where near average and is most likely dangerous. I have a bunch of liver and other organs on hand but I have no desire to eat them right now.   There was a pretty big stop signal my body put up the last time I ate raw liver but not the couple times before. Could just be randomness or possibly the fact that I have enough of whatever is in liver already. So liver might not be that important except for occasional consumption.

I'd like to hear a plausible explanation why we need more protein than what our body's use for maintenance or repair. It unfortunately doesn't just accumulate in the lean tissue.

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #203 on: April 02, 2010, 12:17:56 pm »
300 grams is not a lot.  I don't see how you would grow with 150 grams without eating carbs.  If you eat carbs, it's protein sparing and all of the protein can go to building structures.  If you're low carbing, most of that protein will be used for energy.  The body doesn't store carbs for long term.  It has to store protein and fat for the long term.  No protein, no glucose, no immunity, etc.  That's why being muscular is better for long term health.  You don't live too long emaciated without muscles, look at all those starving skinnies in Africa.  In order to store protein, you have to eat it in excess.  Why do you think women respond to muscular men?  They're suppose to, just like men respond to a woman's chest.  It's all instinct.  If you're only eating 150 grams, you'll maintain, but won't grow.  Fat does not turn into muscle, protein does.  There's no nitrogen in fat.  You don't have to eat 300 everyday, but you do at some point if you want to increase your protein stores aka muscles.  How do you expect to grow without eating protein?  That's like 95% of the people in the gym, believing that working out makes your muscles bigger.  365 days a year and still look the same.  Those muscles need molecules from somewhere, it just doesn't come from outer space or another dimension.  Or the other way around, cardio all year round and still look fat and sloppy.  Women always compliment me on how great my skin is, I tell them I eat a lot of meat and fat, and they'll just say it's my genetics.  It just blows my mind how people don't think diet makes any difference.  We're all here because we understand diet does make a difference. 

I know protein slowly converts to sugar, that's why you should let your liver handle the glucose making instead of eating carbs.  To say that excess protein turns into fat, I personally went thru it, I did not gain fat, I gained muscles.  If you can't gain muscles eating that amount of protein, somewhere along the metabolic process, you're missing some vital nutrient or you are already at a genetic setpoint.  Go on any steroid forums, those guys are downing protein levels into the 500g.  If protein were a waste to eat, these muscle heads would not put much emphasis in it.  This should be common knowledge.  You really think ancient samurais and knights trained hard and didn't eat a lot of meat(protein).  The nobles understood this so well that they made laws that forbade the common person to eat meat, so they can have it all for themselves or their armies.  They understood that not allowing the peasants to eat meat would keep them weak and subservient, and besides it's a lot of work back then to raise animals.  Can't go passing around the good stuff to the "common man". 

Of course you don't want to eat liver all the time.  That's just like eating lean meat all the time.  You shouldn't eat anything all the time, but you have to eat it sometimes.  That just goes back to making sure your diet is balanced. 
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #204 on: April 02, 2010, 12:58:08 pm »
...

I know protein slowly converts to sugar, that's why you should let your liver handle the glucose making instead of eating carbs.  ...  

Of course you don't want to eat liver all the time.  That's just like eating lean meat all the time.  You shouldn't eat anything all the time, but you have to eat it sometimes.  That just goes back to making sure your diet is balanced.  

    I'm starting to dislike the copper in liver.  I don't like the taste of liver.  I think liver keeps some of the toxins it filters, and that means maybe excess copper from the vegetation the animals eat.  The glucose too.  Maybe it's really just something excess.  I'm thinking more and more of zero carb.
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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #205 on: April 02, 2010, 01:12:26 pm »
You might want to read some starvation studies. Once sufficiently adapted to the starved environment only about 6g of nitrogen is being lost every day in the excrement which translates to about 35g of protein. There are studies that show that nitrogen balance can be maintained with as little as 30g of protein. The RDA recommended amount is just .8g/kg body weight. If our daily repair demands are this low, which seems to be fact since Americans eat only 15% of their diets from protein and they don't waste away, then where does all this extra protein go? 150g a day would be giving each of us atleast 50g extra grams of protein a day or 250g of muscle (since muscle is 80% water). No one gains half a pound of muscle a day. I think all the extra past what your body uses for repair simply gets converted to glucose. This might start happening at around the 50g mark, especially if you are getting protein from good quality sources.

The reason I believe excess protein is potentially harmful in the long run is because primates lack the necessary enzymes to convert toxic nitrogen waste into allatoin like almost all other mammals. This continual excretion of nitrogen taxes the kidneys. There are many excellent hunter-gatherer populations that have low protein intake with excellent health. The kitavans get just 10% of the their diet from protein.

I'm far stronger than you and am not worried about low protein intake affecting my lifting. I lifted for quite some time with higher than average protein and never really gained much size, though I gained significant strength. The body only repairs muscle to what it needs to be and is conservative in this manner. I'm now experimenting with low protein intake, probably around 70g a day to test whether or not I can maintain nitrogen balance as starvation/low-calorie studies suggest.

But, keep eating 300g a day and keep reporting how much new muscle you get. Measure the nitrogen in your urine and get back to me. I really doubt it'll be any different than when on 150g a day. And yes 300g is way, way too much protein.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #206 on: April 02, 2010, 09:34:39 pm »
I thought I would be out of control by now, terrorizing fat people down the street, running after them, trying to get some of the rich, creamy goodness mmmm  :D





LOL That was hilarious. :)

Offline KD

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #207 on: April 03, 2010, 04:26:06 am »
I mean this non-judgmentally in regards to safety or effectiveness, but I still don't even see the objective in doing this. Is it simply that they want to eat more protein and thus don't want the satiation from fat, or are they saying that even at 300 g protein or whatever, that eating fat would somehow affect their biochemistry of creating muscle? Or is this merely some kind of bodyfat burning thing?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 04:34:13 am by KD »

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #208 on: April 03, 2010, 05:14:57 am »
Alright then, try it.  The average american eats a ton of carbs too.  Carbs put you into anabolism.  Like I stated before, if you eat carbs with protein, the protein will go towards building structure.  What average american eats low carb?  Go work out hard everyday and eat a 1lb steak only and see how much gains you'll get. 

The only time nitrogen has to be excreted is during the breakdown of amino acids.  Unless you plan on running a marathon everyday, there's is no reason your body is going to break down that much protein for energy, unless you have some kind of metabolic problem. 

You need to read up on the strongman and bodybuilder diets of the past before the whole steroid and supplement craze came into.  Those guys ate tons of eggs, meat, milk, blood, etc... They didn't get strong eating a puny 150 grams a day.  Vince Gironda promoted eating 36 eggs a day on top of god knows how much steak he was already eating.  36 eggs a day is roughly 210 grams of protein already.  If you want to be anabolic, you need to up your protein period. 

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Offline Savage

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #209 on: April 03, 2010, 02:56:10 pm »
You are getting about 300g of protein a day not anywhere near the 1000g that Red supposedly got. Most of this protein is converted to glucose which is then converted to fat. You could actually lower protein down quite a bit to burn even more body fat. Since your protein intake isn't extravagent its going to take much longer than 3 weeks to show any symptoms that constant nitrogen waste will produce. In fact, you may never show any symptoms with this protein intake. Some body builders might get this much for decades and be fine.

I just looked it up it's 380-480g of protein and 56-96g of fat and 2700-3400 calories, I'm gonna lower it to 2lbs/day by the "worst" estimates, the low end of protein at 250g and a high end of calories @ 2200, that should be speed things up and make them more miserable too, the way dieting should be.

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #210 on: April 04, 2010, 06:20:17 am »
Dieting is only miserable if you don't have enough protein or fat.  Most weight loss diets are high carbs, which messes with hunger.  I can skip days without eating easily doing low carb. 
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Offline sven

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #211 on: April 04, 2010, 08:01:01 pm »
300 grams is not a lot.  I don't see how you would grow with 150 grams without eating carbs.  If you eat carbs, it's protein sparing and all of the protein can go to building structures.  If you're low carbing, most of that protein will be used for energy.  The body doesn't store carbs for long term.  It has to store protein and fat for the long term.  No protein, no glucose, no immunity, etc.  That's why being muscular is better for long term health.  You don't live too long emaciated without muscles, look at all those starving skinnies in Africa.  In order to store protein, you have to eat it in excess.  Why do you think women respond to muscular men?  They're suppose to, just like men respond to a woman's chest.  It's all instinct.  If you're only eating 150 grams, you'll maintain, but won't grow.  Fat does not turn into muscle, protein does.  There's no nitrogen in fat.  You don't have to eat 300 everyday, but you do at some point if you want to increase your protein stores aka muscles.  How do you expect to grow without eating protein?  That's like 95% of the people in the gym, believing that working out makes your muscles bigger.  365 days a year and still look the same.  Those muscles need molecules from somewhere, it just doesn't come from outer space or another dimension.  Or the other way around, cardio all year round and still look fat and sloppy.  Women always compliment me on how great my skin is, I tell them I eat a lot of meat and fat, and they'll just say it's my genetics.  It just blows my mind how people don't think diet makes any difference.  We're all here because we understand diet does make a difference. 

I know protein slowly converts to sugar, that's why you should let your liver handle the glucose making instead of eating carbs.  To say that excess protein turns into fat, I personally went thru it, I did not gain fat, I gained muscles.  If you can't gain muscles eating that amount of protein, somewhere along the metabolic process, you're missing some vital nutrient or you are already at a genetic setpoint.  Go on any steroid forums, those guys are downing protein levels into the 500g.  If protein were a waste to eat, these muscle heads would not put much emphasis in it.  This should be common knowledge.  You really think ancient samurais and knights trained hard and didn't eat a lot of meat(protein).  The nobles understood this so well that they made laws that forbade the common person to eat meat, so they can have it all for themselves or their armies.  They understood that not allowing the peasants to eat meat would keep them weak and subservient, and besides it's a lot of work back then to raise animals.  Can't go passing around the good stuff to the "common man". 

Of course you don't want to eat liver all the time.  That's just like eating lean meat all the time.  You shouldn't eat anything all the time, but you have to eat it sometimes.  That just goes back to making sure your diet is balanced. 

Great post man.  Keep them coming

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #212 on: April 05, 2010, 12:48:58 pm »
Thanks man.  It's hard.  It seems a lot of people in here have no clue about how much food it takes to see gains or really know anything about bodybuilding nutrtion.  Glad to see someone understood it. 
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Offline chucky

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #213 on: April 06, 2010, 04:15:29 am »
Thanks man.  It's hard.  It seems a lot of people in here have no clue about how much food it takes to see gains or really know anything about bodybuilding nutrtion.  Glad to see someone understood it. 

Did you have any problems with facial flush or increased anxiety/heart beat ? I can't understand what has caused this for me. I had it before then it went away and now I have it again. When I am sitting in classroom my face just starts to flush. I can feel how my face goes damn hot and lips start to burn. It it because of ketogenese ? I will skip few glasses of my milk kefir to be sure it's not because of it.

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #214 on: April 08, 2010, 01:33:45 am »
Sounds like the beginning of rabbit starvation.  This is not normal.  Ketogenesis just means ketones in blood or urine, it shouldn't make you have a strong/fast heartbeat.  Your problem is a imbalance.  Go eat some chocolate and/or nuts, that will fill you up with magnesium and the theobromine will help calm down your anxiety. 

This is what I'm talking about people, can't eat muscle meat forever.  Get your liver and kidneys in your diet.  Stop eating like civlilized people and eat like humans are suppose to.  Good luck. 

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #215 on: April 08, 2010, 05:05:33 am »
I'm afraid that's simply wrong advice as Lex and I and many others who have tried zero-carb have had issues with rapidly increasing heart-beats during transition, and even well after(months) for a time in the case of some RZCers. Nothing to do with rabbit-starvation.
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Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #216 on: April 08, 2010, 05:53:10 am »
Your heart rate shouldn't change just because you eat zero carbs.  I eat zero carbs from time to time, I don't notice the heart rate issue.  I only notice it when I eat to much muscle meat.  It has everything to do with rabbit starvation.  That's how it starts, I've been there twice.  The first time I had it, I was extrememly lean, and I thought it was because I didn't eat enough fat.  This time around I had fat stores and had a worse reaction than last time, indicating I was missing something in my body, but it wasn't fat.  You have any idea how many freaking magnesium tablets I had to take to slow me down?  Where do you find the most magnesium in a cow?  The bones, that means you have to eat more stock or soup made from real bones.  After a period of time after going zero carb and eating muscle you will become somewhat more hyperthyroid, this goes back to zinc building up and copper becoming deficient.  The more zinc dominant the faster your metabolism becomes.  There were times I couldn't even eat a quarter of a chicken, everytime I tried to eat more my heart starts to beat really fast.  It took me a little over 2 months to be able to eat normally again.  Now I handle eating large amounts of meat without dealing with blood pressure and pulse issues. 

If you go zero carb and don't feel good, don't keep going with it.  That's your body telling you something is wrong.  There's no trial period like that going zero carb.  If you feel like crap, you're doing it wrong. 

I don't think my advice is bad, the guy can try a little chocolate with nuts, it's not going to kill him, but it can make a world of a difference.  The worst it can do is that it doesn't work or you can listen to Tylerdurden, the low carb god, and just suffer with a runaway heart. 
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #217 on: April 08, 2010, 05:56:40 am »
Your heart rate shouldn't change just because you eat zero carbs. ...
I didn't experience it, but Tyler is right that some people (like Lex) did report racing or irregular heartbeats. I think Lex said he thinks it was due to his not having been fat-adapted yet.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #218 on: April 08, 2010, 06:44:25 am »
I didn't experience it, but Tyler is right that some people (like Lex) did report racing or irregular heartbeats. I think Lex said he thinks it was due to his not having been fat-adapted yet.

I have definitely experienced that during periods of low-carb.  I think that eating a lot of omega-3s and very little omega-6s will probably help.  That thins the blood, allowing it to flow more easily. 

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #219 on: April 08, 2010, 07:29:49 am »
I definitely think it is more than just having thick blood.  I remember in the hospital I had to keep eating chocolate to keep my heart rate controlled.  That's what lead me to believe that something in the chocolate was anti-adrenergic.  That's why I started drinking cocoa.  2 months later my cardiovascular system is back to normal. 

Take it or leave it. 
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Offline ys

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #220 on: April 08, 2010, 08:52:50 am »
Quote
I remember in the hospital I had to keep eating chocolate

how did you end up in the hospital?

Offline van

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #221 on: April 08, 2010, 10:06:41 am »
I'll 'leave it'.  You tend to make quick conclusions, and this time, it was from not eating much fat at all, but a heck of alot of protein.  You might like to see what it would be like if you slowly changed the ratio of fat and meat, allowing your body to adapt to using fat as fuel.  That is an experiment you can't do overnight and write about your response the next day. 

Offline Savage

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #222 on: April 08, 2010, 01:45:10 pm »
Eating lean meat only isn't a problem, I set new PRs last night on my bench (Incline+Flat), Snatch and Weighted Dips, it's only a problem if you are under 5.8% body fat.

"In a study of these elite troops, body fat percent dropped from 14.3% at the start of the course to an average of 5.8% at the end. Fat Mass declined according to initial fatness. The body fat loss ceased at a point where each man still carried 2.5 Kg of body fat. This apparently represents a lower limit of body fat loss in healthy men.

In a few soldiers, bodyweight loss, but not body fat loss, continued after reaching this low Fat Mass. This bodyweight loss was fully accounted for by losses in Lean Body Mass. At a critical point in bodyweight loss, the body chooses to spare its remaining fat reserves. Now, instead of losing fat, it sacrifices proteins (muscles and organs) to provide fuel. " P. 196, UDS, Dr. Greggory Ellis

Maybe an extreme amount of lean would be bad, but then, other than sex and sports, everything extreme is bad for you.

Offline miles

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #223 on: April 09, 2010, 07:32:56 am »
Similar to the the lower limit of body fat, which when 'pushed at'(from consuming too little fat for what you're using whilst already at the lower limit) causes the body to resort to breaking down essential structures for vital energy; there seems to be an upper limit too, which when 'pushed at'(from consuming too much fat for what you're using whilst already at the upper limit) leads the body to into a reckless overdrive in order to use up the excess fat and prevent it being stored, which means the body is carrying out some processes in excess, or when they should not be carried out at all and this causes problems. So there would be a 'safe range' between maybe 6-16% in which body fat ideally lies. This would mean you could afford to lower or increase dietary fat as long as you increase/decrease appropriately before hitting these boundaries and maintain body fat% within this range. This is just how it seems to me at the moment...

[Also this is separate but I did not get an answer before: People have spoken here about the Eskimos drinking a lot of water. Do they get this from melting snow? Thanks.]
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Gained 10lbs. of MUSCLE in less than a week!
« Reply #224 on: April 09, 2010, 04:42:59 pm »
Melting ice, not snow.
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