So why do hunter gatherers & neolithic's Have short lifespans?

[PaleoPhil]

Anthropologists get a large number of factors wrong, mainly because its a field based on theories based on very little evidence, its basically a pseudo science


Archaeology & more recent evidence based fields are far more accurate & far more useful

Check out lloyd pye, he lists the fields & sciences which correctly date & catalog

More than any other field, anthropologists tend to get diet right. Below is a partial list of anthropologists who advocate some form of Paleo Nutrition. It includes Boyd Eaton, who is the scientist that developed the very theory that underpins Paleo nutrition and is both an anthropologist and a radiologist (interestingly, Dr. Kurt Harris is also a radiologist and Paleo diet advocate). Show me a list of achaeologists or scientists from any other field that has as many advocates of Paleo-type nutrition as anthropology and then I'll take your claim seriously. The proof is in the pudding.

> Eric B. Ross, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology, Institute of Social Studies, co-editor of Food and Evolution: Toward a Theory of Human Food Habits
> Geoff Bond, Nutritional Anthropologist and  Evolutionary Biologist, "Natural Eating: The Bond Effect," http://www.naturaleater.com/index.htm; “Deadly Harvest: The Intimate Link Between our Health and Our Food,” Square One Publishers, New York, March 2007.
> H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS, Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, "ANTHROPOLOGICAL RESEARCH REVEALS HUMAN DIETARY REQUIREMENTS FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH," Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1982, 16:1:38-45, http://www.empowerfoods.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2676&start=0&sid=fedadaa4655393a180573cf0cb436634
> Jeanne Sept, Professor of Anthropology, Indiana University, teaches "Prehistoric Diet and Nutrition," http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/teach/P380/P380read.html
> Katharine Milton, PhD, professor of physical anthropology at the University of California in Berkeley, ucjeps.berkeley.edu/Endangered_Lang_Conf/Milton.htm
> Kristen Hawkes, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, hawkes@anthro.utah.edu, http://www.anthro.utah.edu/hawkes.html
> Lionel Tiger, Charles Darwin Professor of Anthropology, Rutgers University, "The Caveman Diet," Wall Street Journal, July 9, 2002, http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p81.htm
> Magdalena Hurtado, Associate Professor of Anthropology, a human evolutionary ecologist who has spent many years studying the Ache, a group of hunter-gatherers who live in the South American country of Paraguay; her story is told in Anthropologist: Scientist of the People, by Mary Batten
> Mark F. Teaford, Professor of Anthropology, Center for Functional Anatomy and Evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> Melvin Konner, Ph.D., Samuel Candler Dobbs Professor of Anthropology and Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Neurology at Emory University, www.anthropology.emory.edu/FACULTY/ANTMK
> Peter S. Ungar, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> S Boyd Eaton, MD, Professor of Radiology and Anthropology, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, author of The Paleolithic Prescription: A Program of Diet and Exercise and a Design for Living

I tell people, when it comes to nutrition, you're better off listening to an anthropologist (especially one that specializes in hunter-gatherers or the Paleolithic era--i.e., a Paleoanthropologist) than nutritionists or physicians (who have been indoctrinated in the standard erroneous dogma re: nutrition).

[RawZi]

Pelvis & childbirth's have very little to do with complications, i can go into specifics if you like, healthy women rarely have complications, tribal women laugh at childbirth ...

    I think you're right.  My pelvis was tiny before pregnancy and after.  I gave birth ok, even though I was on my back.  I did not like being on my back at all, but it was doctor's orders and I listened.  I used no medication and there were no forceps involved.  I have plenty of friends with much bigger pelvises than me who had to get c/s's because their pelvises would not respond properly to their hormones when it was time.  I know other small pelvised women who gave birth to large babies easily and quickly.  I think birth has more to do with hormones and mother's health than size.  I am not a midwife nor doula though.  Which tribal women do you know who laugh at it? 

[roony]

    I think you're right.  My pelvis was tiny before pregnancy and after.  I gave birth ok, even though I was on my back.  I did not like being on my back at all, but it was doctor's orders and I listened.  I used no medication and there were no forceps involved.  I have plenty of friends with much bigger pelvises than me who had to get c/s's because their pelvises would not respond properly to their hormones when it was time.  I know other small pelvised women who gave birth to large babies easily and quickly.  I think birth has more to do with hormones and mother's health than size.  I am not a midwife nor doula though.  Which tribal women do you know who laugh at it? 

You increase your rate of complications by about 50% if you give birth in bed, on your back

All modern home birth techniques are now virtually based on tribal women's technique's for childbirth, most homebirth midwives are surprisingly well informed on how successful primitive tribes techniques of childbirth work

Just goes to show what happens when health professionals reject modern medicine & embrace real as nature intended medical knowledge

BABIES IN THE CORNFIELD

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20282597/Babies-in-the-Cornfield-Stories-of-Maternal-Health-and-Death-from-Around-the-World

"I remember the first time I did a vaginal exam on a woman in labor during a “house call” in the mountains of western Bolivia.  When I turned my back to wash my hands, she ran out the door, waddled up the hill, and birthed her baby in a dense cornfield.

 As a midwife, I had been trained to investigate, to prepare.  How many centimeters dilated?  Is it time to “deliver” the baby?  Hot water and warm towels in the room? 

This was her seventh baby, a baby that would be born at home, without help, and drop onto the waiting sheepskin floor cover just like the first six before him. 

She didn’t need me telling her when it was time to give birth.  Her body knew.  I was the one who didn’t know anything.  This rural woman was shamed by me, made nervous by me, and risked her life and her baby’s life by running away from me.  Some midwife.  Some “authority on childbirth.”Those of us who have a university education think we know what’s best for those who don’t. "

[roony]

More than any other field, anthropologists tend to get diet right. Below is a partial list of anthropologists who advocate some form of Paleo Nutrition. It includes Boyd Eaton, who is the scientist that developed the very theory that underpins Paleo nutrition and is both an anthropologist and a radiologist (interestingly, Dr. Kurt Harris is also a radiologist and Paleo diet advocate). Show me a list of achaeologists or scientists from any other field that has as many advocates of Paleo-type nutrition as anthropology and then I'll take your claim seriously. The proof is in the pudding.

> Eric B. Ross, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology, Institute of Social Studies, co-editor of Food and Evolution: Toward a Theory of Human Food Habits
> Geoff Bond, Nutritional Anthropologist and  Evolutionary Biologist, "Natural Eating: The Bond Effect," http://www.naturaleater.com/index.htm; “Deadly Harvest: The Intimate Link Between our Health and Our Food,” Square One Publishers, New York, March 2007.
> H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS, Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, "ANTHROPOLOGICAL RESEARCH REVEALS HUMAN DIETARY REQUIREMENTS FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH," Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1982, 16:1:38-45, http://www.empowerfoods.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2676&start=0&sid=fedadaa4655393a180573cf0cb436634
> Jeanne Sept, Professor of Anthropology, Indiana University, teaches "Prehistoric Diet and Nutrition," http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/teach/P380/P380read.html
> Katharine Milton, PhD, professor of physical anthropology at the University of California in Berkeley, ucjeps.berkeley.edu/Endangered_Lang_Conf/Milton.htm
> Kristen Hawkes, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, hawkes@anthro.utah.edu, http://www.anthro.utah.edu/hawkes.html
> Lionel Tiger, Charles Darwin Professor of Anthropology, Rutgers University, "The Caveman Diet," Wall Street Journal, July 9, 2002, http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p81.htm
> Magdalena Hurtado, Associate Professor of Anthropology, a human evolutionary ecologist who has spent many years studying the Ache, a group of hunter-gatherers who live in the South American country of Paraguay; her story is told in Anthropologist: Scientist of the People, by Mary Batten
> Mark F. Teaford, Professor of Anthropology, Center for Functional Anatomy and Evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> Melvin Konner, Ph.D., Samuel Candler Dobbs Professor of Anthropology and Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Neurology at Emory University, www.anthropology.emory.edu/FACULTY/ANTMK
> Peter S. Ungar, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> S Boyd Eaton, MD, Professor of Radiology and Anthropology, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, author of The Paleolithic Prescription: A Program of Diet and Exercise and a Design for Living

I tell people, when it comes to nutrition, you're better off listening to an anthropologist (especially one that specializes in hunter-gatherers or the Paleolithic era--i.e., a Paleoanthropologist) than nutritionists or physicians (who have been indoctrinated in the standard erroneous dogma re: nutrition).

I'm not refuting the paleo diet & the research behind it, or its historical research, i was referring to the anthropology profession as a whole, as its tries to find links & patterns & then tries to theoretically explain them, alot of the theories it claims about other cultures & races, are usually simple junk science

Unfortunately i havent got the time to go into the pro's & con's, just stating my experience with having researched anthropology for a few years

[RawZi]

    Haha .  

    I assisted a woman give birth in a wildly rural area.  She did lie down, but it was no soft bed, it was more like a concrete block.  This (sigh) was her choice.  She had a hard time.  I didn't like that they were using herbs to speed up the labor either, but I just gave support, as I had less experience.  I believe if she would have let labor come as it may, it would have been easier.  She thought she couldn't nurse either.  I had to show her how.  She was amazed it was possible.  She thought she wasn't built right for her baby.  I don't know why so many women go in to these things with modernish pharmaceutical type ideas.  Oh, she was on a neolithic diet, lots of grain that weren't even indigenous to her area.    

You increase your rate of complications by about 50% if you give birth in bed, on your back

...

BABIES IN THE CORNFIELD

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20282597/Babies-in-the-Cornfield-Stories-of-Maternal-Health-and-Death-from-Around-the-World

"I remember the first time I did a vaginal exam on a woman in labor during a “house call” in the mountains of western Bolivia.  When I turned my back to wash my hands, she ran out the door, waddled up the hill, and birthed her baby in a dense cornfi...this was her seventh baby

[invisible]

where is the evidence of short lifespan amongst hunter gatherers?

Paleo people aged slower without degeneration of the body (the quality of their bones at the time of death shows this) which could only mean they would have lived longer.

[TylerDurden]

The trouble with claims of complication-free birth among native tribes is that a) those native tribes often eat lots of unhealthy foods such as fermented grains etc. and b) even wild animals on perfect, natural diets have some trouble with giving birth, although it's much lower than either HG women or women on modern diets. Lying on your back isn't a quick-fix solution.

[roony]

The point is healthy women drastically reduce the rate of complications, tribal women & primitives even with grain fed diets, still suffer LESS complications then modern cities

Because of their better midwifery & advanced birthing knowledge

Primitives & primal's have always had better infant mortality birth rates then modern cities, & continue to do so to this day

Their superior natural forms of midwifery & superior forms of natural birth, drastically reduce infant mortality, AT CHILD BIRTH, COMPARED to modern cities

[jessica]

i guess what i was trying to express was that sure maybe a few elders made it to 90
but they were definitely the exception as many more perished in earlier stages of life
also i think paleo man could have probably aged differently then we did and maybe at 10 years old he is more mature to equal 15 so at 20 of our years he is 30, 40=60 etc.....?

[PaleoPhil]

I'm not refuting the paleo diet & the research behind it, or its historical research, i was referring to the anthropology profession as a whole, as its tries to find links & patterns & then tries to theoretically explain them, alot of the theories it claims about other cultures & races, are usually simple junk science

Unfortunately i havent got the time to go into the pro's & con's, just stating my experience with having researched anthropology for a few years

The anthropology profession as a whole is what produced the Paleo diet movement--a version of which you're following. Surely that is of some value to you? You were unable to produce a longer list of Paleo nutrition advocates from any other field because no other scientific field has produced as many as anthropology. If anthropology is purely junk then why is that? If anthropology is junk then the fields of conventional allopathic medicine and nutrition must be junkier. If you want to pick on a field, I recommend those as worthier targets.

When people ask me who to listen to on nutrition or how physicians and nutritionists could be so wrong about diet, I suggest that they'd be better off in general listening to anthropologists who study HGs or the Paleolithic era than physicians and nutritionists when it comes to diet. The reason anthropologists tend to get more things right about diet than physicians or nutritionists is that instead of basing their knowledge on the dogma that was in their textbooks in school they learned by observing the people who have been eating better than SADers for millennia and by experiencing benefits themselves from partaking of HG diets. Observation, experience and tinkering seem to produce better results than theoretical book learning.

Most or all of us here are also examples of this. We tinkered with various diets and, like the anthropologists, we observed the results in ourselves and others and found we did best on RPD. The quotes in my signature summarize it pretty well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all anthropologists get everything right or anything like that. I'm just saying that so far anthropologists have gotten nutrition more right than any other field. The results speak for themselves. The proof is in the pudding.

[TylerDurden]

Given infant mortality rates of 20-30% in palaeo times, I rather doubt that mortlality-rates in modern cities are higher even if one only takes into account infant mortality at birth.

[roony]

I'm pretty confident most of the paleo lived alot longer then they do now lol

Re. air, soil quality etc

but those with malformed or dysfunctional communities, like the trading paleo's & tribes, who had to move due to seasonal pressures, did suffer from low age life spans


Those who adapted & learned to use successfully the environment around them did live successfully with ridiculously long life spans


It's ridiculous to state billions of people in a stage of time, & average their lifespans, we simply dont have the data or immense man power & resources to make that assertion


Which is also why anthropology as a whole is largely theoretical, we simply dont have a large enough sample of data to accurately catalog these cultures