Help with diet.

[miles]

I posted a reply in another topic but I didn't get any response...

So far: In the past, if I had ever had fruit with little or no meat/fat prior to training I would feel jittery as if I had lots of free/active energy, but I would be weak and inflammatory and therefore would not be able to put the energy to good use.

Recently: Since going raw-meat/no fruit I have been much stronger, and less inflammatory, but in training I have very quickly felt out of free/active energy and thus been unable to use my strength.

Does anyone know what I should do? I have considered, with very little information available, the following options; which I would like opinion on:

• Stick with a variety of fatty-meats, and I will become 'ketogenic' and I won't feel low on energy anymore as I will be able to effectively utilise raw fats on their own
• Frequently consume organs(as I would previously have consumed fruit) which contain glycogen, as it is essential to have carbs in order to recover properly(becoming ketogenic is not a good thing in general, and is only good as an emergency response to a lack of carbs, with carbs usually being involved in the utilisation of fat - not ketones), to utilise fat effectively and feel full of energy, however glycogen unlike sugars, does not cause inflammation and is accompanied by much other good nutrition in the organs

I don't know if either of these statements are true, and that's why I'd like a response, thanks.

Miles.

[carnivore]

Fructose from fruits seems to be a problem for some, while glucose is not. This is my case.
The trouble is to find rawpaleo source of glucose without fructose. But there is no to my knowledge.
Liver contains very few glycogen.

[Hannibal]

The trouble is to find rawpaleo source of glucose without fructose. But there is no to my knowledge.

There's no such source, as it is definietely unnatural.

[carnivore]

There's no such source, as it is definietely unnatural.

What is unnatural is the excess fructose in modern fruits. Fructose is sweeter than glucose to the taste. Only berries have a better ratio of fructose/glucose.

According to Schwarzbein : http://thetotaltoner.com/sprinciple.wmv
"If you don't eat enough carbs, insuline goes too low, and you don't rebuild" ie "you don't make (enough) neurotransmetters,  hormones, enzymes, ..."

[Hannibal]

What is unnatural is the excess fructose in fruits. Fructose is more sweet than glucose to taste. Only berries have a better ratio of fructose/glucose. 

Unnatural is also much higher pollution than in paleo times. But we've got to live on this Earth.
Re berries - that's not true - look at nutrtiondata
blueberries - about the same amount of glucose as fructose
but in raspberries you've got more fructose

[RawZi]

Fructose from fruits seems to be a problem for some, while glucose is not. This is my case.
The trouble is to find rawpaleo source of glucose without fructose. But there is no to my knowledge.
Liver contains very few glycogen.

    Does anyone know where a chart is of fructose:glucose ratios in various foods, fruits or honeys?

    http://fabulousforagers.ning.com/forum/topics/digesting-fructose-or-why-does

    There was a discussion on one of the other forums I'm a member of.

[carnivore]

   Does anyone know where a chart is of fructose:glucose ratios in various foods, fruits or honeys?

    http://fabulousforagers.ning.com/forum/topics/digesting-fructose-or-why-does

    There was a discussion on one of the other forums I'm a member of.

http://paleocron.blogspot.com/2009/12/fructose-glucose-ratios.html
http://paleocron.blogspot.com/2009/11/avoiding-fructosesort-of.html

Cranberries have the best fructose/glucose ratio (not very sweet). Carrots have a low fructose content.

http://paleocron.blogspot.com/2009/12/fructose-how-it-acts-as-toxin.html

[miles]

By inflammation I'm not just talking about gut inflammation. I'm talking about all muscles. I haven't been getting it without fruit(sugar). But now I feel like I don't have active energy to use in training, so although I'm not getting this pain/inflammation which was holding me back, I now can't do much anyway because of low active energy(I describe it as active energy, because I may have eaten lots of 'energy' through protein/fat but I'm not being able to use it).

As far as gut-inflammation goes, I've actually had more of that since eating raw meat{[(I didn't have a problem with that, hardly ever, since I started following basic paleo principles(but cooked meat) - only occasionally I'd get gut inflammation if I would eat too much fruit)]}, which I expect is caused by the bacteria(in/on raw meat); I get it when I'm using lots of energy in training(well as much energy as I can since I have very little), I expect because I don't have enough left to fuel the anti-bacterial fight in my gut. 'Libido'(gamete production) also seems to have decreased.

Along with the decreased inflammation in my muscles which was the main objective, the same seems to be happening on my skin, as my spots/acne(I'm 18) seem/s to be decreasing and healing up as a result of my exclusion of fruit. However, I have acquired a viral infection(verruca) on one of my toes.


Whatever I do, I do not see how going on like this could be good, but I do not want to lose the positive effects I have gained(decreased inflammation)...

Do you think that if I get my sugar/carbs from foods with balanced glucose/fructose(some berries[but they can be expensive and if I'd need a lot to keep up with my training I wouldn't be able to afford it], carrots and w/e else) that I won't get hyper-inflammation? Or is this just relating to gut-inflammation? I thought it was suggested that any bacteria/parasites may thrive on fiber?

If I would definitely adapt to this diet, and whilst maintaining low-inflammation, the other negative effects I've so-far endured would gradually disappear, then I would stick with it; because I would really like to not have to go back to inflammation. But if for that, I need to go somewhere between where I am now and where I was, then I will do that also(e.g. if I need to have carbs, but from different sources to before).

What I need it feedback/opinion from you,

Thanks,

Miles.

[William]

The point of rawpaleo is to replace all sugars/carbs with animal fat.

It takes time for your body to change, and some get side effects, usually called detox.

And stop believing in the germ theory of disease - it is a lie.

[klowcarb]

The point of rawpaleo is to replace all sugars/carbs with animal fat.

Concise and perfect.

[miles]

Why do I want to adapt, how will I adapt, will I really or will I just get used to this? Why did someone give me a link to a woman saying you need some carbs and why would I be affected so badly by this if it was better? Can't someone/some people please spare some time to explain this to me properly. I feel like I'm walking blind. Everything in me is telling me to eat some fruit... but I'm not because I don't want muscular inflammation, and am assured that I will adapt. But please tell me how I will adapt... What is  this adaptation. Please tell me what happened to you when you changed diet, what you went through, time-scale, how you adapted, so I can relate and understand what will happen... Please.

I also don't know what you mean by 'the germ-theory of evolution' but that is minuscule compared to the other issues I'm facing...

[djr_81]

The point of rawpaleo is to replace all sugars/carbs with animal fat.

No William; that's your opinion of what a raw paleo diet is.
Many others feel that there were varying amounts of vegetation in a paleolithic diet.
Just because you or I do best on a carnivorous diet doesn't mean it's the only way.

[miles]

Djr please tell me about yourself, what happened when you went carnivorous, the +'s and the -'s, how you adapted, when you adapted... What your body actually did to adapt. I want to give this the best chance to work(because I don't want to get back the inflammation I had[muscles or skin]), but nobody is really telling me anything about what happened to them...

I want to go and eat a Banana, or anything carbs, but I have been a while now without carbs, and the reason I've been able to last so far is because I remember the last time I had fruit I got inflammation(muscles, particularly my neck) again all of a sudden. However, after reading this about fructose/glucose balance, although it seems to be relating to gut-inflammation, it's fuelling my curiosity and desire to eat some fruit just in-case this glucose/fructose balance will spare my muscles from inflammation. Although I doubt it, it would take very little such as this to get me eating fruit as everything else in my body is telling me to do so(all except my most upper-level of consciousness). But if I'm progressing towards a positive adaptation, I don't want to ruin it and slow myself down. I need information, stories. Why do people seem reluctant to give actual personal transition-stories rather than just general statements?

I beg.

[djr_81]

Why do I want to adapt, how will I adapt, will I really or will I just get used to this? Why did someone give me a link to a woman saying you need some carbs and why would I be affected so badly by this if it was better? Can't someone/some people please spare some time to explain this to me properly. I feel like I'm walking blind. Everything in me is telling me to eat some fruit... but I'm not because I don't want muscular inflammation, and am assured that I will adapt. But please tell me how I will adapt... What is  this adaptation. Please tell me what happened to you when you changed diet, what you went through, time-scale, how you adapted, so I can relate and understand what will happen... Please.

I also don't know what you mean by 'the germ-theory of evolution' but that is minuscule compared to the other issues I'm facing...

Miles,

I'll try to answer as much as I can. Note, this is all from my own personal experiences and everyone's body has different responses and adaptations so you really need to listen to your body first and foremost while using our anecdotal experiences to give you an idea of how things are going.
I'm also feeling the effects of yesterday's pemmican so this will not be as eloquent as I'd like but should give you the gist.

The intent & desire of switching to a keto-adapted body is one of efficiency. Fat gives more energy by weight than carbohydrates so there's less burden on the body. This has the added benefit of giving our bodies which have been barraged with elevated insulin since childhood, a chance to repair itself.
Your body right now is creating, and excreting, a large quantity of ketones to handle the larger volume of fat in your diet and is starving for glucose which it's used as fuel since you were a baby. It's trying to use the ketones but it's grossly inefficient at this right now. Over time (weeks) your body will go through changes to allow it to use the fat as a fuel as opposed the carbohydrates it uses now. This transitional time is hell on your body. Most of us here have gone through it in varying degrees and will confirm that it's hard (look through many of our early journals and you can see what symptoms/problems we had). You just need to trust the low energy will pass. There are some that do not do well on a carnivorous approach (such as Tyler) but you've got a good sounding board here who can help you decide how it's going if you experience abnormal symptoms.

I used to have a large amount of muscular inflammation. My knees were the worst. I took this as a sign of getting older. I do not have this eating raw carnivore. I also have higher energy than I did before (as shown by better time & endurance both running and cycling). I do not spar so can not confirm equal or greater performance in this area but it appears others on here have done perfectly fine following the transitional period.
Read my journal. It's only 8 pages at this point and the first 4 or so are my transitional period. Hopefully this and other journals can give you some solace in this period; they did this for me during my transition and made it easier to push through since I knew there was an end in sight.

[livingthelife]

I can't know what your health situation is, particularly regarding inflammation/endocrine function/metabolism... I don't even know what my exact situation is because I've had some physiological problems unrelated to diet

I will tell you about my reduction in carbs

I'm not eating only meat. I'm now eating 3 servings of fruit a day (actual servings, such as 1 small or 1/2 large banana). I was consuming 16+ servings of carbs a day in the form of dates, wine, bread, and fruit (along with some raw meat and fat)

I had inflammation of the gut and endocrine problems and wanted to get that resolved through diet

When I cut back I had headache, fatigue, trouble focusing my eyes, sweating, anxiety, heart palpitations, puffy eyes, and insomnia

I had to eat more RAF in order to compensate for the loss of calories from carbs

I got gall bladder twinges for a few weeks

However, despite this suffering, my gut improved, my mood improved, and my blood sugar stabalized. I would eat half an orange if the symptoms got too bad.

I'm still not feeling fabulous but I'm feeling much better. The symptoms subsided. I'm more tired than I was (I think my body is being required to actually digest now) and sometimes I still get low blood sugar.

There is a disagreement on this forum about how many if any carbs are healthy. I personally am following as closely as I can the Homo Optimus Diet ratio of

protein 1 : fat 2.5 - 3.5 : carbs 0.5

I also eat other low-carb plant foods that are close to this ration naturally, such as avacado and sunflower seeds. The only carbs I'm really eating are the 3 fruits a day.

I don't want to go deep into ketosis (fat/protein-based metabolism) because of my compromised health. I'm metabolizing fat and protein better now (as confirmed by the ketostix urine tests and my decrease in "induction flu" symptoms) but also can eat some fruit without a problem (1 serving with each meal)

I don't know if I'd be better off eating no carbs. Some seem to do well with zero-carb, others don't. Maybe I'll reduce carbs further in the future

My goal is to be well and continue to be active. I'm a 41 yr old woman. I'm not an athlete, a man, or young.

[carnivore]

Djr please tell me about yourself, what happened when you went carnivorous, the +'s and the -'s, how you adapted, when you adapted... What your body actually did to adapt. I want to give this the best chance to work(because I don't want to get back the inflammation I had[muscles or skin]), but nobody is really telling me anything about what happened to them...

I want to go and eat a Banana, or anything carbs, but I have been a while now without carbs, and the reason I've been able to last so far is because I remember the last time I had fruit I got inflammation(muscles, particularly my neck) again all of a sudden. However, after reading this about fructose/glucose balance, although it seems to be relating to gut-inflammation, it's fuelling my curiosity and desire to eat some fruit just in-case this glucose/fructose balance will spare my muscles from inflammation. Although I doubt it, it would take very little such as this to get me eating fruit as everything else in my body is telling me to do so(all except my most upper-level of consciousness). But if I'm progressing towards a positive adaptation, I don't want to ruin it and slow myself down. I need information, stories. Why do people seem reluctant to give actual personal transition-stories rather than just general statements?

I beg.

Maybe you can give us more details on your diet : amount of food, cooked or raw, etc.

In my experience, inflammation is, on a rawpaleo diet, caused by too much food. The excess nutrients, whether fat, protein or carbs cause inflammation.
Gut inflammation is generally related to an unbalanced digestive flora. Often excess carbs (fibers) are the culprit. My gut is calm when I eat only animal products.

As for fruits, I can't handle a lot of fruits without hypoglycaemia and addiction. Beware of your body telling you to eat fruits. they are highly addictive!

[miles]

Excess Macro-Micro Nutrients, or excess Intake-Output of Energy, or simple Excess Intake full-stop?

[carnivore]

Excess Macro-Micro Nutrients, or excess Intake-Output of Energy, or simple Excess Intake full-stop?

I also feel tired when I eat too much (fatty meat).

what amount of food do you eat ?
and what food ?

[Paleo Donk]

The point of rawpaleo is to replace all sugars/carbs with animal fat.

I don't believe this to be the case nor do most of the members here.

I think its more correct to say that we are trying to replace our old sugar/carb intake with varying amounts of raw foods. The amount of raw animals and raw vegetation will vary for each person. For some, like you it will be 0 and for most it will be very low.

I don't understand why you are making such a broad statement that you know does not allign itself with the conventional thoughts of the board. Are you purposely trying to get attention? Why can't you add the phrase, "In my opinion" before you write these things. It really seems like you are intentionally trying to provoke an emotional response.

[carnivore]

I don't believe this to be the case nor do most of the members here.

I think its more correct to say that we are trying to replace our old sugar/carb intake with varying amounts of raw foods. The amount of raw animals and raw vegetation will vary for each person. For some, like you it will be 0 and for most it will be very low.

I don't understand why you are making such a broad statement that you know does not allign itself with the conventional thoughts of the board. Are you purposely trying to get attention? Why can't you add the phrase, "In my opinion" before you write these things. It really seems like you are intentionally trying to provoke an emotional response.

Yes I believe William like confrontations and emotional exchanges. I think the best strategy is to ignore those provocations, otherwise we waste our time in futile arguments.

[miles]

Well Previously... I would eat ~1200-1500g of minced beef/day. The ratio would be approximately equal protein/fat i.e 'Nutrition/100g: Protein:20g, Fat:20g; or 16/16. This meat would be cooked, but just enough so it would not be red(cooked on 100 degrees Celsius). On top of this I would have fruits/veg, mainly pears and bananas. It would also include other fruits when we had them, but all sweet not sour, and sometimes cabbage/lettuce/carrots as well. I was on this maybe slightly over a year, but with variation on the meat nearer the beginning e.g. salty/high cooked/microwaved but I stopped this.

Towards the end of that, I started cutting out fruit more and more. I found that I still 'needed' it, but if I could just have meat/fat before training and no fruit I would have a lot less inflammation during the training. So I was doing this, but then I thought 'Why have the fruit at all if it does this to me, is it also causing the inflammation/acne on my skin?' etc... But I thought that without fruit I would need my micro-nutrients somewhere else, and there seemed to be a ying/yang between meat/fruit, like dry/moist, even ignoring the sugar.

The quantity's been about the same. I've been eating ~1000-1500g of raw meat(including fat) per day. I found I had to eat more earlier on though, as if I eat late now it keeps me up. I used to eat fruit alongside my last meal and I would get to sleep fine but without it I don't, so I just don't eat late on.

Because of this, I simultaneously cut fruit and went carnivorous.

So far I've been having mainly beef but a bit of lamb. I've been getting fairly fatty cuts of braising steak/diced stewing steak predominantly, along with some other experiments e.g. Fish/Rabbit. I couldn't get the same mince I had cooked because there seemed to be some chemical which would usually go away with cooking. But the other mince which I've had(fresh-minced from the store/local butcher not mass-shipped) has been what I've enjoyed by FAR the most because of texture and that it's all mixed in I guess. I'm UK, so I think the beef is grass-fed then grain-finished, but isn't organic so will have added hormones etc. I guess.


I do two sessions of exercise per day, one being Conditioning and the other being Judo. On the week-end I have Judo earlier/Conditioning later and vice versa during the week.

[miles]

=S ... I didn't want to complicate this Thread... I'd tried making posts in other threads and no one would reply. Therefore I tried to make this one as simple and plain as possible. Now it's too much information and no one would be bothered to read it...

[djr_81]

=S ... I didn't want to complicate this Thread... I'd tried making posts in other threads and no one would reply. Therefore I tried to make this one as simple and plain as possible. Now it's too much information and no one would be bothered to read it...

It's ok Miles; it's better we have too much information as opposed to not enough. I've read the whole thing and I'm sure others have as well.
I honestly think you're just dealing with typical adaption problems. I felt much like you do including the overwhelming fear about if what I was going through was normal adaptation. I remember one day I felt like complete hell with no energy and didn't think I could do much more. The next day I actually felt good. It still took a while to feel great but the day of clarity was a sign I was on the right path.
I'm serious about looking through old journals (this helped me the most; much more than having others tell me it would be ok) as they show exactly how people were feeling and then the shift.

[roony]

=S ... I didn't want to complicate this Thread... I'd tried making posts in other threads and no one would reply. Therefore I tried to make this one as simple and plain as possible. Now it's too much information and no one would be bothered to read it...

Are you eating organs? & are you cooking meats? just want to confirm thnx

[miles]

All the meats are raw. I had heart once but didn't like the 'suet' in it. I have been consuming a small amount of liver, post-exercise, prior to consuming muscle-meat/fat; although this isn't really set and I've had it some other times  too. I had to get the liver from the butcher not the supermarket, as I can't consume that much of it and it just goes off too much, since my gut seems still to be struggling with the high-bacteria levels.