GAINED 6-7lbs, stopped eating/working out like an idiot

[ys]

keep going.
it'll be nice to see before and final after pictures.

are you a hard gainer?  or can put on weight easily?

[sven]

Definitley a hard gainer.  I stand 6 feet tall and had an average weight of 150 for many years.  My dad stays around that same weight, so basically tall and skinny build.  It can be frustrating because some of my friends eat crap and don't work out but they still appear to have larger muscles than I do, although they are in no way as strong as I am.  However I'm having second thoughts about calling myself a hardgainer anymore with the results I've been getting with my diet. 

[ys]

i'm extremely hard gainer as well.  so frustrating...
i did manage to gain 5lb over the last 6 months.  hopefully i will continue to gain pounds.  i think i should limit fruits as well.

[KD]

I've always been thin/had a hard time putting weight on, but seem to be able to put on muscle ok...maybe with a bit more effort than others.

my problem with raw seems more to be what the reverse body-type would want, I get full really fast and don't otherwise get hungry. If I boost my activity I do tend to eat more but not necessarily on par with the whole calories-burned theories.

on the positive it seems like if I do manage to pack in the cals through great effort, my body will respond with gains, its just alot more preferable to not do that. I can remain more or less stable around 2k on raw, which I guess is another plus for my height/activity.

[sven]

What kind of foods do you guys eat and how much?  5lbs in 6 months is a fair amount of weight lol you could go to the supermarket and look at 5 lbs of meat and that is a lot of body tissue!  One of my favorite things to do for gaining weight is eating a handful top raw round lean steak(15-20g of protein) with 1-2tbsp of raw butter/honey between meals.  So basically I'll eat Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner(say tuna, chicken, oysters, pork)... and between all of these snack on the the top round steak... you could even snack on smaller amounts(10-15g).  I've found this to help with the hunger issue that you get KD.  It seems that when I eat a Big meal to try and put on weight it is counter productive it just satisfies my hunger for longer periods of time and I can't get enough calories in.  I heard a good interview on superhuman radio and they talked about not needing to eat more than 20g of protein in a meal because if you go over that the remainder of the protein isn't used for protein synthesis but used for energy, you would of course need to add fat to the 10-20g of protein you consume ENSURING that it doesn't get used as fuel(my favorites are raw butter/honey, egg yolks, olive oil).  

my problem with raw seems more to be what the reverse body-type would want, I get full really fast and don't otherwise get hungry. If I boost my activity I do tend to eat more but not necessarily on par with the whole calories-burned theories.

[Paleo Donk]

The part about only using 20g of protein per meal is most likely false. If it were the case, then those that eat once a day (which are quite a few) would be dead pretty quickly. Now, whether spreading out your protein intake over the course of the day is going to lead to more protein synthesis than gorging in one meal is another issue.

[sven]

. Now, whether spreading out your protein intake over the course of the day is going to lead to more protein synthesis than gorging in one meal is another issue.

This is exactly what I was trying to say

[sven]

The part about only using 20g of protein per meal is most likely false. If it were the case, then those that eat once a day (which are quite a few) would be dead pretty quickly.

Why would they be dead?

[Paleo Donk]

Well, if you eat once a day and are thus only synthesizing at most 20g of protein per day and the rest of dietary protein is converting to glucose/fat then you will not be able to meet your body's minimum repair requirements and you will atrophy pretty quickly. Don't you think 20g of protein per day is pretty low? And wouldn't you think there would be a huge difference in muscle size for those who eat once a day vs those who eat multiple times per day (especially for those who lift heavy weights)? I haven't seen a reported difference and I gained plenty of strength eating just once a day. So, the statement you heard is most likely incorrect.

I can make an argument for your statement being true though. In long term starvation studies, the body wastes about 25g of protein per day - mainly from muscle tissue. Much of this is used to turn into glucose for proper brain function. Also, in studies, any carbohydrate intake during starvation will spare protein, though the ceiling is pretty low. I think the benefit from anything more than 15g of carbs is not significant. So, maybe we can only synthesize a small amount of protein during every meal.

Also, eating meals more often unfortunately will not simply give you more muscle. If the body thinks the muscle is repaired enough to achieve good health its not going to keep adding to its size.

[sven]

Well put.   I'll try to go back and listen to the interview see if theres any truth to this and post the link from superhuman radio.  The problem with this is half their links are broken.  Hopefully we can dig a little deeper into this.  So far I can only speak from my experience. 

[KD]

What kind of foods do you guys eat and how much?  5lbs in 6 months is a fair amount of weight lol you could go to the supermarket and look at 5 lbs of meat and that is a lot of body tissue!  One of my favorite things to do for gaining weight is eating a handful top raw round lean steak(15-20g of protein) with 1-2tbsp of raw butter/honey between meals.  So basically I'll eat Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner(say tuna, chicken, oysters, pork)... and between all of these snack on the the top round steak... you could even snack on smaller amounts(10-15g).  I've found this to help with the hunger issue that you get KD.  It seems that when I eat a Big meal to try and put on weight it is counter productive it just satisfies my hunger for longer periods of time and I can't get enough calories in.  I heard a good interview on superhuman radio and they talked about not needing to eat more than 20g of protein in a meal because if you go over that the remainder of the protein isn't used for protein synthesis but used for energy, you would of course need to add fat to the 10-20g of protein you consume ENSURING that it doesn't get used as fuel(my favorites are raw butter/honey, egg yolks, olive oil).  

Interesting to compare to a 5lb slab of chuck.

I'm pretty much at the same height/weight. heres a pic from 5 weeks ago: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/journalistica/msg33405/#msg33405

since then I lost over 7 lbs. and now according to the scale am back to where I was (was even up to 170 apparently) but still look a little thinner in my face and body, so its a mystery to me where this stuff goes. I have been working out less, and lost most of the weight basically water fasting and massively under-eating afterwards so I guess that is why it came back so quick.



Mostly my 2 meals consist of ~1/2 lb of muscle meat (on occasion more w/o added fats)with some kind of fat or combination of fats from marrow, suet or raw butter. For awhile I was using pork fat but I think that made me ill. Sometimes I eat seafoods and poultry as well, but less so than I used to purely on $ and taste reasons. to gain weight I've been doing a cucumber/cellery/parsley/cilantro juice with 6 eggs in the morning (this is a real appetite killer) not to mention my 'morning' is still like 12-1pm (I get up around 10 at the moment). so I don't even have my first real meal around 1-2 pm at the earliest.

I think you are right about the meal frequency, but this is pretty much what I meant about not wanting to be on some kind of weight gaining regiment. When I start back working a regular schedule, I might snack more here and there. The other thing that has been helpful (although I don't plan on sticking with it) is drinking 1/2 gallon of raw milk a day or more. some days I've had eggs at the end of the day as well.

by the end of next week I should finally have a decent stock of both suet, marrow and butter, so I'm going to try and do lower protein again.

[sven]

Interesting to compare to a 5lb slab of chuck.

I'm pretty much at the same height/weight. heres a pic from 5 weeks ago: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/journalistica/msg33405/#msg33405

since then I lost over 7 lbs. and now according to the scale am back to where I was (was even up to 170 apparently) but still look a little thinner in my face and body, so its a mystery to me where this stuff goes. I have been working out less, and lost most of the weight basically water fasting and massively under-eating afterwards so I guess that is why it came back so quick.



Mostly my 2 meals consist of ~1/2 lb of muscle meat (on occasion more w/o added fats)with some kind of fat or combination of fats from marrow, suet or raw butter. For awhile I was using pork fat but I think that made me ill. Sometimes I eat seafoods and poultry as well, but less so than I used to purely on $ and taste reasons. to gain weight I've been doing a cucumber/cellery/parsley/cilantro juice with 6 eggs in the morning (this is a real appetite killer) not to mention my 'morning' is still like 12-1pm (I get up around 10 at the moment). so I don't even have my first real meal around 1-2 pm at the earliest.

I think you are right about the meal frequency, but this is pretty much what I meant about not wanting to be on some kind of weight gaining regiment. When I start back working a regular schedule, I might snack more here and there. The other thing that has been helpful (although I don't plan on sticking with it) is drinking 1/2 gallon of raw milk a day or more. some days I've had eggs at the end of the day as well.

by the end of next week I should finally have a decent stock of both suet, marrow and butter, so I'm going to try and do lower protein again.

Seems that you have a good program worked out, I'll have to read through your journal sometime soon. You don't look too much like a hardgainer




Here is the interview on superhuman radio with Doctor Stuart Phillips on amounts of protein to stimulate protein synthesis.  Please give it a listen and tell me your thoughts. 

make sure to click download episode that way you can skip through the commercials

http://www.superhumanradio.com/components/com_podcast/media/mp3s/SHR_Show_468.mp3

[ys]

What kind of foods do you guys eat and how much?

i eat about 70-80% raw meat/fat/organs and 20-30% PANU style mostly bone broths and some fruits.
i do not know how much i eat, i do not measure it.  i eat when i'm hungry 2-3 meals per day, and stop when i feel pretty full.
so far the weight is very slowly going up.  i'll post pictures when i get to the 10lb gain.

[KD]

Seems that you have a good program worked out, I'll have to read through your journal sometime soon. You don't look too much like a hardgainer

I don't know if their is much positive to glean from my journal, mostly its just me bitching about stuff.

I've been working out for well over 10 years now so that factors in, and while I've attempted to change by diet for the positive/raw for 5 years,  and some approaches have been debilitating/emaciating, there seems to be some underling muscle memory of sorts. I know if I had to really bulk up, like Will Smith in Ali or something, if would be excruciating...or to become AV fat. I have some substance in that pic but it takes tons of effort to maintain and build on, more so than it should on meat/fat diet IMO, although I'm also probably at a point where I need to do actual weight bearing exercise than the body-weight stuff I do.

I also eat organs like heart, tongue and liver, but not frequently. I eat a variety of red meats like buffalo, and now getting 100% grass/forage finished lamb and goat.

I'll check out the interview, I had listened to some stuff about raw on that station before which were good to hear.

[onekingreigns]

I was wondering if anyone has had any problems/knowledge of raw egg producing vitamin A deficiency?

And also, Is it not really beneficial at all to include much plant matter in your diets, apart from the muscle building?

That is the one thing I've been having trouble with is the strictly carnivorous diet.

[sven]

Don't have any knowledge of the vitamin A deficiency... According the the nutritional facts on eggs there is a good amount in them.  I only eat the egg yolks now. 

I have started eating a couple more fruits a day ( by themselves without meat)  it is a great muscle building tool.  I only eat a select few such as bananas, walnuts, few apples, and some celery juice.  Coconut oil is great when not eaten alone.  As redfulcrum stated in one of his crazy topics:: Carbs are natures steroids.  Apart from muscle building?  I probably wouldn't eat many plant foods at all.  10% fruits is a good way to go according the opinions of many carnivores. 

[sven]

On a good note I've hit 167lbs.  Can't wait to post pics once I hit 170. Home stretch baby!   

Is there a way to move this topic to journals or should I just keep it here?

[miles]

I have started eating a couple more fruits a day ( by themselves without meat)  it is a great muscle building tool.  I only eat a select few such as bananas, walnuts, few apples, and some celery juice.  Coconut oil is great when not eaten alone.  As redfulcrum stated in one of his crazy topics:: Carbs are natures steroids.  Apart from muscle building?  I probably wouldn't eat many plant foods at all.  10% fruits is a good way to go according the opinions of many carnivores.  

In an average sort of day, could you tell me when you might eat the different foods? e.g. fruit ~1hr after getting up, and again a few hrs later, meat ~8hrs after getting up. Or whatever. I'd just like to know how you use the fruit, as I could never really figure out how to use it.

[sven]

Wake up -  drink cod liver oil

10 minutes later-  2 bananas

20 minutes later- breakfast-  1 pound raw steak

5 minutes later - breakfast - 5 egg yolks mixed w/ lemon juice maybe some raw honey

2 hours later - half pound of cooked turkey with 2tbsp coconut oil

30 minutes later - apple/walnuts

2 hours later- half pound of cooked ground beef- 2 tbsp olive oil

2-3 hours later repeat of breakfast, adding 2 bananas after the steak

milk before bed


I find that eating the fruit directly after eating the meat works ok, if you wait 20-30 minutes even better.

Bananas always seem to work, apples don't mix well with other foods, avocados don't work for me at all... lemons work after meat has been eaten first. 

I have not experimented very far with other fruits.

I always add 2tbsp of either coconut oil, olive oil, almond butter, or beef tallow to each meal(currently given up on raw butter) so I can hit my calorie goal of around 4200kcal.  and of course egg yolks to the steak. 

sorry if this is all confusing, contradicting, or unorganized its been a long day at work.  Let me know if you need more info

[sven]

Alright, I'm 1-2 pounds away now... those extra pounds aren't going to make a difference

I will try to match up before and after pics, sorry for the lighting differences, angle differences, and distance differences,(differnet cameras used because I broke the older one) I am not a professional photographer... BUT anyone can see there is a difference in my body composition minor picture differences or not.  Even Tyler might be impressed(lol jk), also I'm more tan.

unfortunately I am not comfortable showing my legs where a good amount of weight has been added due to squats/deadlifts- sorry guys



More importantly I am proud of my progress, very ecstatic knowing that I've gained weight(be it fat, glycogen, muscle, or water), as previously mentioned I had a major problem bulking with SAD.  Thanks to everyone.... I started this thread to inspire muscle seekers here and to inspire myself, I hope I have accomplished that. 

New goal- 180lbs

before pics are posted first, then following with an after pic.  The before pics were taken september of last year weighing 150-155, the new pics were taken tonight(july) 2010 weighing 168-170ish

[sven]

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[sven]

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[sven]

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[sven]

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[sven]

Whew! time for an  10 egg yolk/ 2 lemons /1 tbsp honey shake!