Author Topic: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?  (Read 7320 times)

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Offline MaryC

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New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« on: January 29, 2010, 09:19:03 am »
Hi, I'm quite new on this Zero carb/Carnivorous WOE. I've suffered from ED my whole life and a couple of years ago i "discovered" low carb and for the first time in my life i wasn't binging on daily bases... Anyway long story made short: I was still binging, never lost a pound (because of this) but it was better than nothing.

I started VLC and helped a lot, then after reading ZIOH I decided to give ZC a try (i wanted to become a member but i think my personality doesn't fit well in there  -[ and viola, no binges, no urges to, never EVER tired after eating (something i couldn't achieve even with VLC).

ZC definitely is the WOE for me (not raw yet). I'm not convinced human is carnivorous, i really think we evolved consuming  60-70 percent plus from animal kingdom and the rest from plant matter, however it doesn't work for me, I'm a carb addict and after so many year i quit, cant keep fighting against it, i cant eat carbs.


I've got some doubts, i hope you can help me here (paleo/low carb community have really smart members, i don't understand 98% of what you guys talk about lol):

1- If you are 100% carnivorous (i know, i know carnivorous sometimes eat some plant matter), it means you have a totally acid diet, am i right? According to Cordain the balance alkaline-acid is vital in order to prevent depletion on calcium and therefore is more important than calcium in/out concerning to osteoporosis. I'm a women, 22y/o, not consuming any diary and really concerned about it, I'm currently taking calcium supplements (not planing to quit them). Do you have any studies, opinions, theories about this? Are we at high risk of developing osteoporosis?

2- Other vitamin and minerals. I know that if you eat the whole animal you will be getting most micronutrients you need. i.e chicken liver i think it's a great source of Vit C... But what abut others? do you supplement? I think magnesium plays a great role for preventing heart disease, etc.

3- Also, I've read alot about having muscle cramps on ZC, Felling really hot after eating, etc, is that supposed to be normal? Cause i can not imagine a caveman having to suffer from that, I've read about people that after years still suffer from that. It sends me the kind of message as when eating High Carb "you are not doing the right thing". Does it eventually go away? why does it happen?

4- I had other questions but i forgot  -\

I hope someone can help me with the doubts. Thanks a lot guys ;)
(Sorry for my spelling, you can notice I'm not an English speaker he he)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 09:27:26 am by MaryC »

Offline invisible

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2010, 10:38:42 am »
meat doesn't make the body acidic. Acidic or Alkaline foods don't effect the acidity of the body. Weak digestion makes the body acidic. Proper digestion requires strong stomach acid (strong stomach acid being needed to stop the acidity of the blood is probably the reason for the confusion), which a carb free diet allows. Stomach acid precedes the release of alkaline digestive juices. Without the stomach acid the digestion process can't occur properly and the body becomes acidic, bloated etc.

It's explained in more detail here, about 3/4 of the way through

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/good-eating/another-reason-to-eat-grass-fed-beef/

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2010, 12:33:17 pm »


1- If you are 100% carnivorous (i know, i know carnivorous sometimes eat some plant matter), it means you have a totally acid diet, am i right? According to Cordain the balance alkaline-acid is vital in order to prevent depletion on calcium and therefore is more important than calcium in/out concerning to osteoporosis. I'm a women, 22y/o, not consuming any diary and really concerned about it, I'm currently taking calcium supplements (not planing to quit them). Do you have any studies, opinions, theories about this? Are we at high risk of developing osteoporosis?

No, not right. Raw meat is very slightly acid-forming, cooked meat much more so. What people notice is that those who test urine have acid pee, but the way I look at it, better out than in - so this is just the way a healthy body works.
Those who get the most osteoporosis are Finns, and they are the national group that consumes the most dairy.
There is enough calcium/magnesium/phosphorus etc. in raw meat that no raw ZCer has had a problem with weak bones. Supplements are not required as long as we eat nothing that contains nutrient blockers; these are vegetables, and maybe fruit.
L. Cordain has been proven wrong so many times that most no longer pay attention to him.



Quote
2- Other vitamin and minerals. I know that if you eat the whole animal you will be getting most micronutrients you need. i.e chicken liver i think it's a great source of Vit C... But what abut others? do you supplement? I think magnesium plays a great role for preventing heart disease, etc.


If the animal was healthy, it had to have had all the needed micronutrients or it could not have been healthy.
So we eat raw fat organic grassfed grassfinished beef/bison and rejoice.
Some eat some organ meat, some don't. It seems that if you try it and need it you will know by acquiring a taste for it.



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3- Also, I've read alot about having muscle cramps on ZC, Felling really hot after eating, etc, is that supposed to be normal? Cause i can not imagine a caveman having to suffer from that, I've read about people that after years still suffer from that. It sends me the kind of message as when eating High Carb "you are not doing the right thing". Does it eventually go away? why does it happen?

I had leg cramps. Not bad. It's just a phase, and if you stick with the diet it passes. Was 3 weeks IIRC.
Hot after eating is when I eat too much.



Quote
4- I had other questions but i forgot  -\

I used to do that a lot.  ;)
Memory improves too, on raw zero carb.



Quote
I hope someone can help me with the doubts. Thanks a lot guys ;)
(Sorry for my spelling, you can notice I'm not an English speaker he he)

Your English is better than that of most native English speakers. Not one mis-placed apostrophe!
(funny sig - A Friend of the Apostrophe)

Welcome to our world.  :)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 12:45:13 pm by William »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2010, 05:49:41 pm »
There are studies done on (low-calcium-diet-eating) Bantu women who had excellent bone-health, so the calcium-issue doesn't exist. Indeed if you consume too much calcium via dairy you block the uptake of magnesium into the body thus harming your bones in another way.

As for ZC, some people go through stages lasting weeks/months/years of getting leg-cramps, racing heartbeat and other symptoms, but eventually adjust. Others start deteriorating very heavily on raw zc after a week or more on such a diet and have to give it up or end in the morgue. I guess you have to judge by symptoms:- if the symptoms aren't lowering your quality of life too much, keep on with it. But if you notice a steady decline, then you'd better give up ZC.

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Offline Diana

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 12:45:05 am »
About acidity of animal flesh, an interesting observation. After years of a raw vegan diet I started to add raw fish, and noticed the pH of my urine go up to 9 in the evenings without any explanation. Same with lamb or goat and same with increased consumption of nuts.  I guess a lot of calcium was excreted in the urine, making it so alkaline. Needless to say I was so scared. Because of studies which indicate that the calcium loss is only temporary I decided to continue (but with much fear). One day last week all of a sudden the picture changed, and the pH of urine in the evening dropped to 6.5. What a relief. Apparently the calcium loss stopped, and it has never been up again since that day. So it appears the studies were right, the calcium loss seems to be only initially when transitioning. This is just my interpretation of the results.

Offline klowcarb

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2010, 10:11:16 am »
Welcome, Mary! I have been ZC for 10 months, and since September I have been raw ZC. ZC made my abs, ended my constant hunger and gives me super energy for my weightlifting/bodybuilding. I hope you let yourself adapt and you will not be disappointed  :)

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 11:33:15 am »
I disagree.  Your body can only recycle so much, then you start losing it.  It might take a couple of years, but if you keep eating just muscle meat, you will lose bone mass.  No meat eating culture just eat muscle meats. 

Don't consume dairy.  Dairy is nature's processed food.  I have no idea what is the big deal with nature not putting all the minerals in milk in the first place.  Anyways, after my rabbit starvation experiment, I realized that I was very low in copper and magnesium.  That would explain the tremors and hyperthyroidism.  I almost had a damn heart attack.  So, the moral to the story is to eat nutrient dense foods.  Don't eat white rice, eat blueberries.  Don't eat muscle meat all the time, eat liver and heart.  On and on. 

The public puts way too much emphasis on calcium. That's what causes high blood pressure.  Calcium is what tenses muscles.  Low potassium and low magnesium will not allow your muscle to relax.  When I say muscle, EVERY MUSCLE, from your biceps, to your veins, and your heart.  Calcium is nothing but a poison without the other minerals.  On top of that, everything is salted.  Sodium is a big no no.  Goodbye kidneys.  SAD will kill you eventually. 

People we got to get smarter about our diets.  Besides following traditional or ancient diets, we need to learn about the chemical reactions behind the scenes in our bodies.  Everyone should study up on biochemistry. 
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 11:41:22 am »
Welcome, Mary. Very inciteful questions. You've done some homework, I see. Good for you. That's the best advice I think I can give you--if you value your health, do your homework, learn a lot about health matters, especially dietary/nutritional, see what makes logical sense to you, learn about the risks and learn from the mistakes of others, tinker/experiment and find out what works best for you.

One thing I highly recommend is reading Lex Rooker's entire journal. Granted, I'm a biased fan of Lex's, but it also contains critical opinions, so I think it is extremely valuable. Tyler Durden is also quite valuable, because he often takes the counterpoint position to that of Lex and myself and both Lex and Tyler present quite a bit of research and experience, so you are pretty sure to get a wide range of views and conflicting data here, which I find to be quite enlightening and invigorating. The debates can get quite heated, so gird yourself, but I don't think anyone means any real harm. GoodSamaritan makes sure we don't get out of hand with his positive and calming approach.
1- If you are 100% carnivorous (i know, i know carnivorous sometimes eat some plant matter), it means you have a totally acid diet, am i right?
Well, based on Cordain's research and Lex Rooker's and my urine pH's (I think they were 5.0-5.5, as I recall) it appears to produce very acidic urine, if that's what you mean.

Quote
According to Cordain the balance alkaline-acid is vital in order to prevent depletion on calcium and therefore is more important than calcium in/out concerning to osteoporosis. I'm a women, 22y/o, not consuming any diary and really concerned about it, I'm currently taking calcium supplements (not planing to quit them). Do you have any studies, opinions, theories about this? Are we at high risk of developing osteoporosis?
This is one of the more puzzling and fascinating subjects in all of nutrition. Cordain's hypothesis seems to make a bit of intuitive sense on the surface, yet Lex and I and others have experienced increased firming of teeth and other indicators of increased bone density instead of decreased. Some people, like Tyler, do experience the opposite effect from VLC/carnivorous dieting, but just adding back a small to moderate amount of carbs apparently resolved the problem for them. My personal, speculative opinion is that there is a surprisingly wide variation in what is optimal for different individuals, influenced by a number of factors. For me there were no noticeable negative side effects from adopting a nearly-raw carnivorous diet at all beyond increased bubbling in my urine (probably due to my high protein intake, which I have tried to modulate with increased water and fat intake) and some temporary acetone-sweetness in my saliva. I suspect that this is because my genetic heritage is particularly tilted toward hunters, which has been further suggested recently by some knowledge I've gleaned about what some aspects of myself (such as my color blindness and greenish eyes at birth) may indicate, with the help of RawZi.

Quote
2- Other vitamin and minerals. I know that if you eat the whole animal you will be getting most micronutrients you need. i.e chicken liver i think it's a great source of Vit C... But what abut others? do you supplement? I think magnesium plays a great role for preventing heart disease, etc.
Admittedly, I do supplement/replace with magnesium, and vitamins A, D3 and K2. The magnesium supplementation I was doing before I started this diet and was able to stop for a while but had to restart recently (in part because fecal volume decreases when one switches to a carnivorous diet). The D3 I do because I don't get much sun and the A and K2 are mainly to assist the D3. As I understand it, most here do not supplement beyond maybe D3 and those of us who do tend to try to use either foods or food-like supplements (I sometimes call them foodlements), and we only do so to replace what is either deficient in our systems or missing from our diets. We don't tend to get megadosers here.

I've been able to greatly reduce the zinc and potassium supplements I was taking when I was eating raw carbs and now only tend to have to take them after I've eaten some carbs. I seem to be carb intolerant (or at least plant-carb intolerant) and the carbs I ingest may bind with minerals, based on what I've read.

Quote
3- Also, I've read alot about having muscle cramps on ZC, Felling really hot after eating, etc, is that supposed to be normal?
I have seen a number of people report that. Magnesium deficiency was cited as the cause in a couple of cases. In my own case, I had toe and foot cramps caused by potassium deficiency that mostly resolved when I adopted a raw carnivore diet (again, eating carbs--even supposedly high-potassium bananas--can quickly bring back the cramps and taking potassium supplements quickly resolves them, or eating lots of raw red meat also resolves them, albeit somewhat more slowly).

I think mineral deficiencies are the most common cause of muscle cramps, but dehydration is another common factor. Traditional facultative carnivores like the Inuit people reportedly consume massive amounts of water. However, this is somewhat controversial, based on the response I got when I reported what I found.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 09:53:26 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 11:56:47 am »
I don't know about taking too many supplements.  Unless you're a genius and can figure out the perfect ratios, you're better off eating the food whole.  If you need bone making materials, you better scarf down some marrow or something.  It is very difficult to get all your minerals and vitamins balanced inside your body.  I was messing around with all kinds of supplements and it took forever.  I forgot the one most important thing, fat.  Fat is the ultimate gatekeeper in the intestine.  No fat, no absorption.  Pistachios saved my life, again.  I've should've known better about drinking cocoa.  It was worthless without the cocoa butter. 
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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 12:17:30 pm »
Correct, foods are always preferable to "supplements," even foodlements, and I'm not advocating foodlements for anyone else, I just find that I do better when I take some, despite what people like you tell me--sorry, I wish it weren't so. Bone marrow doesn't appear to work for me--maybe because it contains more calcium than magnesium or maybe because there are no grassfed sources in my area (that I've seen). My symptoms are only assisted by magnesium ingestion, not calcium. The problem is, magnesium is not found in high quantities in most animal foods, yet everything else indicates I am otherwise best suited to a carnivorous diet. Somehow the Inuit managed to get lots of magnesium on a diet of facultative carnivory. I think it was due to seafoods, though I'm not sure which. Shellfish tend to be too high in calcium, I think, and they are bloody expensive in my area. Besides, I can't imagine the Inuit eating a lot of shellfish. It must have been something else, but what? Seaweed? Maybe I should try seaweed? I can't stand the salty taste, though, but maybe I'd get used to it. It's also very expensive in my area. How did the Inuit eat seaweed? Did they soak it or mix it with something? What about the inland caribou hunters? Did they have to rely on trading for seaweed or did they get their magnesium from a different source?

Right now I'm trying an increase in liver, fat and water. This has helped some in the past and I'm hoping it works again. Lex said to just wait it out, but it's been getting worse lately--waiting it out just isn't doing it for me anymore. I'm getting more bound up again like I was before I adopted a VLC diet. VLC/ZC helped greatly at first, just as going gluten and dairy free did at first, but the benefits in that area are gradually decreasing.

And remember, I'm not doing carnivore out of some weird obsession with re-enactment or something, but because I've tinkered and found that it to work the best of anything I've tried so far. I study the Inuit and other facultative carnivores, not for re-enactment, but because they have thousands of years of experience in facultative carnivory. They weren't optimally healthy (though they had far less chronic disease than moderners, by all accounts), but they knew better than me what measures to take.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 12:28:30 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline MaryC

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2010, 02:48:10 pm »
Hey guys. thanks a lot for all the replies.

Well if we are being skeptical enough to go against SAD, low fat, low calorie, high carb, high fiber, low-to no meat, and all that conventional wisdom I guess I can try to open my mind to consider high calcium intake not being that necessary.

I'm still having hard time understanding then What causes  bone density loss, I guess i bought Cordain's theory way too fast without researching, anyhow i guess the method most of you suggest is the best way to go, Self experimentation mmmmm, let's see how it goes. Eades has written about it as well hasn’t he? I’m going give it a read.

I'm currently supplementing with magnesium and calcium. I'm pretty sure i get enough Vit D (Australia lol) and I’m getting myself to eat most parts of the animal (sorry no stomach content for me   -v I prefer dying from starvation).

About ratios, definitely I’m not going to fall into rabbit starvation xD I eat about 70-75% fat and the rest from protein, grass fed (cause is the only thing you find here). I’ve been doing that for a long time while low carbing.


There are studies done on (low-calcium-diet-eating) Bantu women who had excellent bone-health, so the calcium-issue doesn't exist. Indeed if you consume too much calcium via dairy you block the uptake of magnesium into the body thus harming your bones in another way.

As for ZC, some people go through stages lasting weeks/months/years of getting leg-cramps, racing heartbeat and other symptoms, but eventually adjust. Others start deteriorating very heavily on raw zc after a week or more on such a diet and have to give it up or end in the morgue. I guess you have to judge by symptoms:- if the symptoms aren't lowering your quality of life too much, keep on with it. But if you notice a steady decline, then you'd better give up ZC.


You've scared me a bit  -[;  I mean when people say "You are going to die from a heart attack or colon cancer" I just ignore them cause I know they're just a SAD's broken disk, however someone who's tried it and says that actually worries me,  I’m not planning to give up because anything that can help me with my ED is worth it but what you mean? Isn't it normal ketosis symptoms? Increased heartbeats?


Thanks again for all the help ;)

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2010, 05:38:58 pm »
Look, for some it's just a minor,transitional stage lasting weeks/months, sometimes years. For others, it's a life-threatening situation within weeks and they would be fools to continue given the lethal symptoms involved for them.  Just experiment and see for yourself, that's the only way.


Re PP:- he seems to have coined a whole new RPD term "foodlements":- (ie supplements which are so unprocessed as to be almost like whole raw foods, but not quite).
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2010, 11:10:23 pm »


You've scared me a bit  -[;  I mean when people say "You are going to die from a heart attack or colon cancer" I just ignore them cause I know they're just a SAD's broken disk, however someone who's tried it and says that actually worries me

Tyler Durden does not eat Zero Carb; he tried it and failed. Details why not available.

A good source of info for this is http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/, and especially
http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/about1646.html&highlight=bears+words+wisdom     --
Bear has more experience than anyone else with zero carb; for a whole family's experience including healing and  pregnancy, see delfuego's posts&journal  at http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com

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Re: New to ZC...Osteoporosis, vitamins and others....?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2010, 11:28:58 pm »
The Cure Tooth Decay book is your best friend that shows you that re-mineralizing teeth is dependent on eating a lot of raw meat, raw fat and raw innards.

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