De Vany vs. Graham

[PaleoPhil]

Which of these two would you rather look like, and can you guess their ages at the time of these photos?

Doug Graham:
Aug 2009 Sept 2009

Art De Vany:

[invisible]

I don't know who Graham is, but I just read he does a 80/10/10 (carb/protein/fat) diet.

I know that De Vany does a cooked paleo diet + intermittent fasting.

De Vany obviously looks in better shape

[PaleoPhil]

Here's another guy to consider--I think William or Hannibal tipped me off to him.

Dr. Greg Elllis


You can probably guess the sort of diet that Graham eats vs. De Vany and Ellis. Take a shot at it.


Graham looks like crap like me--maybe even worse. At least I'm not fool enough to try to do videos selling a diet looking like that. Graham writes it off to bad genes, but that raises the question of why bother with his diet if the genes override it anyway? Especially given that he looks a heck of a lot worse now than he did when he started his vegan insanity--even accounting for aging.

Of course, anecdotal evidence is not conclusive, as the vegheads would probably say, but the scientific evidence is also accumulating into mountains that eating lots of plant foods, especially cooked plant foods, is simply foolish if one has the choice not to--especially for people like me who apparently have hunter genes.

[cherimoya_kid]

I fear that Doug Graham is going to have an ugly, ugly end...unfortunately, I don't think he's the type of person who knows how to turn back when things are going wrong.  Who knows, maybe he'll adopt animals products again, but I doubt it.  I think his terrible, untimely death from inadequate diet will rock the raw foodist world, and hopefully wake some people.

I'm definitely planning to use his early death as a way to warn people away from 80/10/10, should he choose to die that way.

[Nation]

There are lots of people on raw vegan forums who don't do well on 80/10/10, i don't think that diet is catching on at all.

Also, comparing 2 gurus to judge a diet is silly. Speaking of which, Durianrider (80/10/10 guru) has been making fun of Ajonus lately because Ajonus was apparently very sick during a presentation in Australia.

[PaleoPhil]

There are lots of people on raw vegan forums who don't do well on 80/10/10, i don't think that diet is catching on at all.

Also, comparing 2 gurus to judge a diet is silly.

I already acknowledged that anecdotal evidence isn't scientific. What's more silly is vegans/fruitarians blindly following Graham despite mountains of scientific evidence weighing against his insane views and his looking like crap. The anecdotal evidence is not meant to be conclusive--just to call into question the absolute utopian purist fanaticism of Graham and his devotees. If we believed the uber propaganda of the 80-10-10ers there wouldn't be anyone looking better than Graham and his ilk. You see, they don't claim that 80-10-10 is just a little better than a meat-heavy diet or that only some people benefit from it. They claim that there's no comparison and everyone can benefit from it if they just do it "right." Yet the obvious decline of their guru seems to have little effect on them. Some of the coolaid drinkers even claimed that he looks good.  
 

Speaking of which, Durianrider (80/10/10 guru) has been making fun of Ajonus lately because Ajonus was apparently very sick during a presentation in Australia.

I pointed out myself that Aajonus doesn't look good and is deteriorating faster than just age would necessarily account for, and I wouldn't follow his diet unless a gun was pointed to my head. Isn't it interesting, though, how that Graham-follower you mention fails to acknowledge that his own guru makes Aajonus look great by comparison? And at least Aajonus recognizes that raw meat and high meat are healthful. Aajonus also claims he overcame more severe health problems than Graham did, though I don't put a lot of stock in guru claims.

I would feel sorry for Graham if he wasn't bringing a lot of people down with him. The 80-10-10/fruitarian-oriented forums are the most sickly diet groups I've ever seen. I've never checked out a Breatharian forum, though.

[William]

 I pointed out myself that Aajonus doesn't look good and is deteriorating faster than just age would necessarily account for, and I wouldn't follow his diet unless a gun was pointed to my head.

Aajonus sleeps 4 hours/day. Maximum
That's what he looks like to me - sleep deprived.

[RawZi]

Speaking of which, Durianrider (80/10/10 guru) has been making fun of Ajonus lately because Ajonus was apparently very sick during a presentation in Australia.

    That heel was making fun of aajonus when he looked and felt good too before the Asia incidents.  dR and his like make fun of skinny models and call them too fat, if the model is not practicing a very low fat vegan diet.  It's really funny how he makes fun of everyone.  I just hope he and the rest of them don't believe all the non-sense they spout.  I doubt they could.  A good many of the lord Doug devotees (otherwise known as Dog Grahamonites) will be practicing raw paleo diet soon enough.  I just hope they don't set off a nuclear bomb first, to reduce the animal (including directly the human of course) population before they think of changing diet.  

[carnivore]

What I find interesting is that, in this discussion, those who look the worst (Graham and AV) are the raw fooders, while those who look the best (Devany and Ellis) eat cooked food. It seems the way food is eaten (raw/cooked) is less important than the food in itself and the macronutrients ration of the diet.
Devany is really in perfect shape for his age with a cooked paleo Mediterranean lean diet, including veggies and fruits.

Everyone has to find the diet that works the best for him. Rawpaleo (from carnivore to omnivorous) has enough flexibility for that purpose.

[Nation]

What I find interesting is that, in this discussion, those who look the worst (Graham and AV) are the raw fooders, while those who look the best (Devany and Ellis) eat cooked food. It seems the way food is eaten (raw/cooked) is less important than the food in itself and the macronutrients ration of the diet.
Devany is really in perfect shape for his age with a cooked paleo Mediterranean lean diet, including veggies and fruits.

Everyone has to find the diet that works the best for him. Rawpaleo (from carnivore to omnivorous) has enough flexibility for that purpose.

We could make a case for any diet, i'm sure there are world class athletes who eat S.A.D., or people over 110 years old in good health who have been eating S.A.D all their lives. What is interesting to me is the impact of diets on sick people who are trying to overcome illnesses. Looking at the health of someone who's always been healthy (such as Graham) doesn't say much. Could a sick person get better on cooked paleo? Is raw paleo the only answer?

[RawZi]

    From my experience, there can come a time, when you need to not be limited by outside things for diet.  If you are not torturing anyone, and not killing any people, you should be able to eat whatever gives you health. 

    Doug Graham is not going for health any more than he's going for making his stamp for the vegan movement.  Nothing wrong with vegan, but it's not natural, and I need natural to live and so does just about everybody. 

    For me, this whole diet this can boil down to freedom.  Do you want to be free to be healthy?  Do you want to be free to eat like other animals do?  Do you want to be free to eat like your ancestors did?  Or do you want to be free to say you'd rather die than let anyone in the world ever kill an animal?  Where is the freedom? 

    There are choices, and may there always be choices.  Teach your children to be healthy and spend time with them hunting, foraging or raising their food in fun ways.  Give them happy memories growing.  When big guys come around trying to destroy health, I want to say shoot them.  Just do the best you can to be healthy.  With health, that is what feels like true wealth. 

[Hannibal]

What I find interesting is that, in this discussion, those who look the worst (Graham and AV) are the raw fooders, while those who look the best (Devany and Ellis) eat cooked food. It seems the way food is eaten (raw/cooked) is less important than the food in itself and the macronutrients ration of the diet. 

Those who look the best are raw fooders - e.g. Stanley Baas (91 years old) or Edward Howell (111 years old).
There are some other crucial factors - e.g. enough sleep, physical activity, happy family, etc. 

[TylerDurden]

There's no point in showing photos of diet gurus. 1 photo may be of a guru caught after having not slept for 24 hours or having done exhausting exercise etc., another might be specially photoshopped(ie
most of them) with gurus taking steroids in order to look more muscular. In short, the attempt of the thread to claim that cooked-meat is better than raw vegan, and therefore that palaeo is better than raw falls flat. Both are equally important and missing out on either just leads to serious health-problems in the long-term.

[carnivore]

There's no point in showing photos of diet gurus. 1 photo may be of a guru caught after having not slept for 24 hours or having done exhausting exercise etc., another might be specially photoshopped(ie
most of them) with gurus taking steroids in order to look more muscular. In short, the attempt of the thread to claim that cooked-meat is better than raw vegan, and therefore that palaeo is better than raw falls flat. Both are equally important and missing out on either just leads to serious health-problems in the long-term.

In general, guru want to look their best, so I doubt they would show a picture of them after a sleepless night or after an intense workout. I doubt Devany takes steroids as he is very concerned by health contrary to most of bodybuilders.
Photos (when they are not disguised) can give interesting information about health, etc, especially when they are taken at different ages, to see how the person ages...AV and Graham badly grow old.
   

[TylerDurden]

In general, guru want to look their best, so I doubt they would show a picture of them after a sleepless night or after an intense workout. I doubt Devany takes steroids as he is very concerned by health contrary to most of bodybuilders.
Photos (when they are not disguised) can give interesting information about health, etc, especially when they are taken at different ages, to see how the person ages...AV and Graham badly grow old.

  Not true, I've seen photos of AV in an obviously impromptu setting where he is unlikely to have been photoshopped as it was just taken by a fan on the spot without promoting him as such. I haven't seen any such impromptu photos of other gurus like Greg Ellis etc. Also, there are conflicting issues such as AV's frowning on exercise which is not emulated by DeVany et al. Heavy exercise can conceal a diet's flaws to some extent. And there's just too much temptation for people to use artificial growth hormone/steroids etc. for gurus with really big muscles not to have tried it.

[carnivore]

  Not true, I've seen photos of AV in an obviously impromptu setting where he is unlikely to have been photoshopped as it was just taken by a fan on the spot without promoting him as such.

Guru, even if they would like, cannot control everybody! I suspect AV was not particularly pleased with these photos. I would be curious to see them if you have them online.
So you think that guru don't generally want to look their best on their photos ?

I haven't seen any such impromptu photos of other gurus like Greg Ellis etc.

This does not mean that they don't exist.

Also, there are conflicting issues such as AV's frowning on exercise which is not emulated by DeVany et al.

Devany promotes paleo exercice as much as paleo food. The fact that AV dislikes exercice proves to me that his diet is not optimal. A good diet gives lots of energy to practise physical activity.

Heavy exercise can conceal a diet's flaws to some extent.

Agree, see Devany with his cooked diet.

And there's just too much temptation for people to use artificial growth hormone/steroids etc. for gurus with really big muscles not to have tried it.

Many gurus in health don't have big muscles. Devany started sports early in his life, and has definitely some genetic easiness to put on muscles. And he has the good technology for that.

[TylerDurden]

Exercise has nothing to do with diet. I mean one can have a great diet and be incredibly lazy and do nothing.

There's a photo on the web of kieba with Aajonus in Hawaii. Can't remember where, ah:-

http://www.bodytemplebootcamp.com/images/Aajonus-JohnWood-0811.jpg

There are plenty of others, just use google image.

[carnivore]

Exercise has nothing to do with diet. I mean one can have a great diet and be incredibly lazy and do nothing.

There's a photo on the web of kieba with Aajonus in Hawaii. Can't remember where, ah:-

http://www.bodytemplebootcamp.com/images/Aajonus-JohnWood-0811.jpg

There are plenty of others, just use google image.

Of course diet has everything to do with exercice, because one needs energy, good nutrition and correct weight to sustain any physical activities. Someone incredebly lazy simply cannot be on a good diet!

AV is posing in this photo. Nothing impromptu!
I was talking about "stolen" photos. I have not found only one on Google.

[TylerDurden]

Of course diet has everything to do with exercice, because one needs energy, good nutrition and correct weight to sustain any physical activities. Someone incredebly lazy simply cannot be on a good diet!

Hmm, then you are suggesting that Lex who doesn't indulge in exercise to any real extent, is following an unhealthy diet?

AV is posing in this photo. Nothing impromptu!
I was talking about "stolen" photos. I have not found only one on Google.

Stolen photos with people turning round and gasping, you mean. Somewhat unlikely given that everyone poses for almost all photos re smiling and saying cheese. That was a rather conventional photo clearly not specially arranged with any special lighting etc.There are several others, just google-image aajonus.

[carnivore]

Hmm, then you are suggesting that Lex who doesn't indulge in exercise to any real extent, is following an unhealthy diet?

Is Lex incredibly lazy ?

Stolen photos with people turning round and gasping, you mean. Somewhat unlikely given that everyone poses for almost all photos re smiling and saying cheese. That was a rather conventional photo clearly not specially arranged with any special lighting etc.There are several others, just google-image aajonus.

Well, any guru has a fan club... Many fans take stolen pictures of their beloved guru, during conferences, trip, etc.. No such photos on google for AV.

[TylerDurden]

Is Lex incredibly lazy ?

Yes, he is. He's admitted not doing any real exercise. I mean, he may fiddle around fixing pemmican-makers or some other gadget but he reported not doing anything serious re exercise. I merely gave him as an example of someone doing a healthy diet but not bothering with the other aspects of palaeo, such as exercise.

Well, any guru has a fan club... Many fans take stolen pictures of their beloved guru, during conferences, trip, etc.. No such photos on google for AV.

Well, AV is a rather more obscure guru compared to DeVany et al so has far fewer photos, naturally. And I find that several photos of AV on the web with kieba etc. are clearly not "managed" in any way. Besides, your own definition of stolen photos is conveniently rather extreme.


[/quote]

[goodsamaritan]

Is Lex incredibly lazy ?

I personally am too bored with gyms and weights.  I don't enjoy this.

I run at full speed with my kids in the playground and swim in the pool with my kids.  Same with Aajonus, I like sex too. I enjoy these activities.

I just want to look lean and attractive to young women.  Bulky muscles scare young women away, you get old women instead... at least in my culture it works this way.  My gym instructor told me this.  Ah crap to bulging muscles, I want the young women.

[goodsamaritan]

If Aajonus ages faster and looks tired, I would guess it is because of the large numbers of terminally ill patients who consult with him.

I've had my share of treating terminally ill patients and it is very taxing on the healer's own constitution.  Too much sadness, fear and negative emotions every day.

[TylerDurden]

You double-posted, GS, so I removed the 2nd post(in case you think I'm censoring your posts!)

[carnivore]

Yes, he is. He's admitted not doing any real exercise. I mean, he may fiddle around fixing pemmican-makers or some other gadget but he reported not doing anything serious re exercise. I merely gave him as an example of someone doing a healthy diet but not bothering with the other aspects of palaeo, such as exercise.

Lex wrote : "I run now and then but not regularly.  I try to walk  10 – 12 miles (15-20 km) per week" so I would not said he is incredibly lazy. I mean he is not a couch potato.
But it looks like his diet does not give him the extra energy to exercice. When I feel energetic, I NEED TO MOVE MY ASS!