De Vany vs. Graham

[carnivore]

If Aajonus ages faster and looks tired, I would guess it is because of the large numbers of terminally ill patients who consult with him.

I've had my share of treating terminally ill patients and it is very taxing on the healer's own constitution.  Too much sadness, fear and negative emotions every day.

I bet his dairy and green juice based diet has also something to do with the way he ages.

[carnivore]

I personally am too bored with gyms and weights.  I don't enjoy this.

I run at full speed with my kids in the playground and swim in the pool with my kids.  Same with Aajonus, I like sex too. I enjoy these activities.

I just want to look lean and attractive to young women.  Bulky muscles scare young women away, you get old women instead... at least in my culture it works this way.  My gym instructor told me this.  Ah crap to bulging muscles, I want the young women.

They are many ways to exercice, and play is probably the best one !

[jessica]

pre-RPD

post-rpd!

[ForTheHunt]

Honestly, I've tried every diet under the sun. Vegan, Raw vegan, SAD, RZC, fruitarian, vegetables only.

With all these diets I looked thin, my face was hollow and I just generally looked like a pussy aswell as my energy was just so horrible that I could hardly work.

When I switched over to RZC my energy came back and I have now a stable awesome energy. Yet I had a lot of brain fog, heart palpitations and was extremely irritable.

So what I do now and makes me feel good and I feel I am healing (skins clearing and healing very fast) is eating a big fatty meaty meal before I go to bed so that my body gets plenty of calories. Also the good thing about eating before you sleep is that it helps you sleep and the meal is digested when you wake up there for you don't get the tiredness you sometimes get when digesting. Then over the day I snack a little bit on fruits. Perhaps an apple and a few carrots. That's it.

The only thing I'm trying to figure out now is whether to eat cooked meat or raw meat. I'm still a bit scared of all the "parasite" theories and so on.

[ForTheHunt]

Honestly, I've tried every diet under the sun. Vegan, Raw vegan, SAD, RZC, fruitarian, vegetables only.

With all these diets I looked thin, my face was hollow and I just generally looked like a pussy aswell as my energy was just so horrible that I could hardly work.

When I switched over to RZC my energy came back and I have now a stable awesome energy. Yet I had a lot of brain fog, heart palpitations and was extremely irritable due to lack of carbs.

So what I do now and makes me feel good and I feel I am healing (skins clearing and healing very fast) is eating a big fatty meaty meal before I go to bed so that my body gets plenty of calories. Also the good thing about eating before you sleep is that it helps you sleep and the meal is digested when you wake up there for you don't get the tiredness you sometimes get when digesting. Then over the day I snack a little bit on fruits. Perhaps an apple and a few carrots. That's it.

The only thing I'm trying to figure out now is whether to eat cooked meat or raw meat. I'm still a bit scared of all the "parasite" theories and so on.

[RawZi]

There's a photo on the web of kieba with Aajonus in Hawaii. Can't remember where, ah:-

http://www.bodytemplebootcamp.com/images/Aajonus-JohnWood-0811.jpg

There are plenty of others, just use google image.

    Googled.  Right on the same site.  With Kiebs also.  The same November visit.  I believe this was eight months after a very serious incident, I direct you to the accounting of injuries and recovery care, refusal of surgery etc.  I also saw him after the injuries, about three months later or four months before the photo.  Kieba practices her Retro Raw diet.  She eats raw meat, raw milk, raw fruit, raw green salad and up to twenty percent of her diet is steamed vegetables, pop corn and coffee (from what I have heard).  She wrote recipe books and sells them on raw foods, a book for adults, a book for children, etc.

    
    "Kieba and Aajonus Speaking at the Raw Game 2008 Kickoff"
    in the picture he is 61 +xmos she is literally about 50 y/o (they both started raw meat         after long close brushes with death)

    Sure, if you can eat a diet that gets you doing
 whatever exercises you want to, fine, do it.  In some situations you may need raw diet, but one that will work whether you exercise or not.  

    The Doug Graham all raw diet, you have to exercise or you will fail right away.  He charges $10,000USD/3wks water fasting, a good time to program you when your brain receives no glucose nor other energy.  

    With cooked meat you need extra exercise too.  

    With RAF based diet all raw exercise is easy but even without the exercise muscles grow and maintain.  

    Aajonus is busy fighting chemtrails, fighting for raw food rights for the US (as politicians act as tricksters over and over at opportune times to take them away), and he travels to several countries each year (it seems to me) and not "just for fun".  He also does experiments to learn more about raw foods and publishes it in newsletters, so if he prefers not to exercise, I excuse him.  He doesn't even try to make money on most of these things, from what I know.  

    Raw milk is made by mothers for babies that sleep more than adults that make hormones for growing.  That's what raw milk does, it gives certain energies that some people need for a time or prefer.  

    I don't suppose many of the people reading or responding to this have developed multiple stage four system cancers at the same time before taking up raw foods.  It's more than food that is needed to cure.  Some may feel better than curing themselves quickly than their roll is to help more people in whatever capacity they are set up to.  Each person has a different role.  Pretty much, it's all good (IMV).  

edit: changed months part of their ages to be more vague. @__:09 PM time 1/29/2010 Fri

[PaleoPhil]

....    For me, this whole diet this can boil down to freedom.  Do you want to be free to be healthy?  Do you want to be free to eat like other animals do?  Do you want to be free to eat like your ancestors did? ....

I like that quote.

My point completely failed to get across to Tyler and possibly others. I'm not saying those photos prove that an obligate or near-obligate carnivore diet is the way to go for everyone or anything like that. I have never said that. As a matter of fact I have frequently explained that I never intend that in any way, shape or form. In general I'm not about promoting things for others (unless they ask--and even then I try to encourage them to seek and decide for themselves) and telling people what to do. I'm not into dogma. I'm about asking questions, refuting extreme claims, posing hypotheses and looking for data. Doug Graham and his followers make extreme claims which his photo vs. Art's call into question. They don't prove anything, but they should make you go "Hmmmm."

You'd never know what Graham looks like from his followers. I've never seen them show his photo. Why is that, I wonder? Do you think maybe it's because he looks like crap? This sort of information should be put out for all to see and judge for themselves. Hiding it raises questions.

I'm not promoting any particular diet for others, but In the interests of promoting fairness and avoiding misunderstanding, I'll note anyway that Dr. Cordain and Dr. Harris don't look as good for their age as Dr. De Vany does. I think they would probably admit that, too.

When I do something like posit that maybe humans are facultative faunivores or meat-oriented omnivores, I'm not telling you what to eat, I'm hypothesizing and inviting folks to add data pro or con so I can put my speculations to the test. I don't have a firm opinion and the opinions I do have can change as I receive more data.

When do I think we can "know for certain" that we've found an optimal diet? Never. Instead I seek what works best for me and hope for the best. I may act like I've found the certain "truth" for practical reasons, but I recognize that new evidence or changing circumstances may change what seemed like the "truth." I hope that this time I've cleared this up.

I had hoped that my current signature would have helped make this clearer, but signatures are pretty small, so maybe no one noticed mine. Admittedly, I often don't read other people's signatures until long after I've been reading their posts.

[RawZi]

    Thank you.

    And no, if you thought I was upset about anything, I'm not.

I like that quote.

My point completely failed to get across to Tyler and possibly others. I'm not saying those photos prove that an obligate or near-obligate carnivore diet is the way to go for everyone or anything like that. I have never said that. As a matter of fact I have frequently explained that I never intend that in any way, shape or form. In general I'm not about promoting things for others (unless they ask--and even then I try to encourage them to seek and decide for themselves) and telling people what to do. I'm not into dogma. I'm about asking questions, refuting extreme claims, posing hypotheses and looking for data. Doug Graham and his followers make extreme claims which his photo vs. Art's call into question. They don't prove anything, but they should make you go "Hmmmm."

...

I'm not promoting any particular diet for others, but In the interests of promoting fairness and avoiding misunderstanding, I'll note anyway that Dr. Cordain and Dr. Harris don't look as good for their age as Dr. De Vany does. I think they would probably admit that, too.

When I do something like posit that maybe humans are facultative faunivores or meat-oriented omnivores, I'm not telling you what to eat, I'm hypothesizing and inviting folks to add data pro or con so I can put my speculations to the test. I don't have a firm opinion and the opinions I do have can change as I receive more data.

When do I think we can "know for certain" that we've found an optimal diet? Never. Instead I seek what works best for me and hope for the best. I may act like I've found the certain "truth" for practical reasons, but I recognize that new evidence or changing circumstances may change what seemed like the "truth." I hope that this time I've cleared this up.

I had hoped that my current signature would have helped make this clearer, but signatures are pretty small, so maybe no one noticed mine. Admittedly, I often don't read other people's signatures until long after I've been reading their posts.

[PaleoPhil]

RawZi, I think your comment points out well the problem that a number of our critics seem to have. I don't have a problem with their not wanting to eat like us, but that is not sufficient for some of them. Some of them want to tell us how to eat as well, and if we don't follow their prescriptions they label us as fanatics, fools or fiends before they've even learned much about our way of eating and why we do it. I've never understood this lack of curiosity and rush to judgment. That seat-of-the-pants style of thinking has never appealed to me.

Before I said anything critical about Graham or 80-10-10 I learned what it was about and read posts from its adherents and proponents. I found the arguments to be emotional and unscientific and the adherents to be a sad lot of sickly, complaining folk. I harbor more pity than ill will toward them, because I think they really believe in the self-destructive diet they are following and they are doing it largely for reasons they see as ethical rather than for health reasons. Their intentions appear to be good. Yet our critics don't seem to put nearly the effort into learning about us that I did in learning about them and their WOE (which I also knew something about from past brief vegetarian experiences). They seem to feel the need to dismiss RPD out of hand without even investigating it. I find this unthinking approach puzzling and unappealing.

There are exceptions, of course. Amir seemed to be one. While he was not averse to insulting some of our lot, he did at least ask questions, including pointed questions to the proponents of fruitarian dogma. He had a skeptical side that was quite appealing to me. I enjoy challenging questions when they are honest, at least somewhat open-minded, and not too insulting.

[RawZi]

    A sad lot, they're just children.  They were raised on Kraft macaroni and diet soda unfortunately and are mixed up.

    I like being whole.  I did become vegan and stay vegan for decades, but even in the exact same moment I became vegan I did it with not only animal health in mind but my own too.  I knew I had worth so I not only imparted my worth on the animals, but what they deserve I deserve.  We all die sometime.  They get to live, I get to live.  They get to eat what makes them healthy, I get to eat what makes me healthy.  Animals shouldn't feel guilty for eating and I won't either. 

    Maybe we're more evolved than the 80/10/10ists.  Maybe they are an earlier stage.  Maybe like almost all embryos of all animals look alike but develop differently afterward, maybe one group of humans is like that from another.  Maybe humans were frugivores.  Maybe the 811ers got that right.  Then maybe humans evolved further to eating meat.  I do not believe that eating natural raw meat puts extra stress on the Earth.  I have to add that; because the Grahamonites may be reading this, and get the wrong idea.  Anyway, if evolving to being more advanced went from frugivore to us, and embryos start through the same stages then develop to look like various animals, then maybe we are able to learn their way and still do what's right, but they cannot even try to comprehend our way; because we are the future, their brains are just not developed enough. 

    It's like us thinking we can think like bottlenose dolphins.  We can't.  We have a different complexity of connections between the brain cells.  We are not them.  We are each made differently for reasons.  Some 811ists believe and teach that means we don't have a right to live.  I believe differently, that each has beauty.  We are human and might do well to support each other in best of health.         

    I just feel sorry for Faychesca.  I saw that look in his eyes in his video.  He had a sadistic get-off-on-her fear look when he told of how she was surprised when he told her that other humans eat animals.  Then he looks so insecure when he talks about other things on video.  I hope baby Fay only gets the good.  I felt for her, she must have felt scared when dad got so happy saying outside people eat her friends that she feeds bread to.  I wonder too, why did they have bread in the house after he wrote Grain Damage?

    Sure Doug's skin looks terrible, but his body is fairly muscular.  He manages on his diet, but it's certainly not for everyone.  You're right.  He and his followers push their diet on other people for stomach/guilt chakra's sake.  That is not a right thing to do.  They need healing in their guts.  They have to eat 3,500 per day at least in fruit fiber just to push things along; because their peristaltic muscles don't work.  They get very worn out.  It shows on their faces and organs.  They are full of fear and disgust.  They may jump around like they are on cloud nine, but they can't handle any other emotions.  They are very imbalanced.  I wish them healing.   

RawZi, I think your comment points out well the problem that a number of our critics seem to have. I don't have a problem with their not wanting to eat like us, but that is not sufficient for some of them. Some of them want to tell us how to eat as well, and if we don't follow their prescriptions they label us as fanatics or fools before they've even learned ...

... ethical rather than for health reasons. Their intentions appear to be good. Our critics don't seem to put nearly the effort into learning about us that I did in learning about them and their WOE (which I also knew something about from past brief vegetarian experiences).

[redfulcrum]

Aajonus looks skinny fat.  I know he's big on the raw milk thing.  I'm sure he's a healthy dude.  I'm sorry, if you're paleo you have to have muscles.  You have to look like a hunter, not some dude with a 9to5 desk job.  I wonder how far can he throw a javelin. 

[PaleoPhil]

Oops! I know it's well intentioned, but if at all possible I'd rather we didn't speculate critically too much about how our critics raise their children. I could be wrong, but I think that's pretty much an off-limits area in modern Western versions of "civil discourse."

[TylerDurden]

Other than the aspects of the thread re ZC, I should add that whitebox/amir was definitely a troll, and it was quite right that he was banned, in the end. He said a number of very unpleasant things about a number of members(even of  PP who foolishly supported him, it seems).  But the ultimate point is that photos of gurus mean absolutely nothing since most/all of them could/would have been photoshopped etc.

[PaleoPhil]

Other than the aspects of the thread re ZC, I should add that whitebox/amir was definitely a troll, and it was quite right that he was banned, in the end. He said a number of very unpleasant things about a number of members(even of  PP who foolishly supported him, it seems).  But the ultimate point is that photos of gurus mean absolutely nothing since most/all of them could/would have been photoshopped etc.

Well he never characterized my posts or behavior as foolish and I didn't mind his questioning whether I might have aggressive qualities from meat eating, but I'm not defending his behavior toward others, and I don't want to debate further whether Amir was a troll or not, as that is a done deal.

Your self-anointed "ultimate point" to this thread appears based completely on your own imagination without evidence. There are multiple photos and videos of both men online. If you don't believe these then check into it yourself. The image of Graham was taken from the RenegadeHealthShow video by Kevin Gianni. You can watch the video here and decide for yourself whether you think every frame in the video was photoshopped: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMjcXQyiSQw&feature=PlayList&p=DB01BE52EFE1D482&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=17

The real ultimate point I was trying to make is that the video images of Graham raise questions about the extreme claims of Graham and his followers, as do the numerous posts about health problems at fruitarian/vegan forums. I'm not saying they prove anything, I'm saying they raise questions. We have some health problems here at RPD, but nowhere near to the extent that the fruitarian forums do, and this was something that an undecided semi-fruitarian reported and asked about at a Graham-promoting 80-10-10 forum, BTW. That's the sort of question that needs to be asked--why do RPDers seem to fare better than 80-10-10ers? If we don't question things and instead simply try to make up excuses to defend Graham's appearance or his views then I think we make a major mistake of lack of critical thinking.

BTW, I don't know Dr. Graham and assume him to be well intentioned (he appears to believe so strongly in his diet, for example, that it looks like he is following it to the detriment of his own health), so I'm not trying to criticize him personally, just questioning his claims and views. I came across the video and had never seen his image before (and now that I've seen it I can see why 80-10-10ers don't display it much), so I was shocked at how poor he looks for his age.

No one made any guesses, so I'll reveal that the ages of De Vany and Graham were quite close at the times of those images, if the sources are correct. De Vany has aged more since that photo and is significantly older than Graham, but seems to be aging more "gracefully" than Graham. Granted, people could point to Dr. Cordain and Ray Audette's images and say they don't look all that great, and Art's diet is not completely raw, so I'm not using De Vany's image to claim it proves that an RPD diet is good, I'm again just raising questions about Graham's 80-10-10 doctrine. I'm also not asking people to instantly accept my take on this. Check out the images of Graham vs. De Vany or other meat eaters like the Eades, and some 80-10-10/fruitarian/vegan forums, yourself and decide for yourself whether you accept Graham's claims.

[Nation]

I did the 80/10/10 diet for 5 months and my body was always so cold, especially my limbs. I had to take 2-3 hot showers a day to feel better. That went away when i switched to cooked-ZC except that my hands and feet would still get cold after drinking water, even lukewarm water, that problem dissapeared after only 1 week on raw ZC.

Also on 80/10/10, at 1st i'd have 2-3 bowel movement a day which i i read was a good thing. After a couple of weeks, i had 4, then 5... and finally up to 6 a day near the end, IS THAT NOT INSANE? I was no longer digesting fruit. I tried to eat more, i'd just shit more and i kept losing weight, I was 58 kg when i realized that it wasn't working at all. Ironically, i had the opposite problem when i switched to cooked-zc, sometimes i didn't go to the bathroom for a week. Went from 6 times/day to once a week LOL.

[Paleo Donk]

Hmm, I always pronounced it CAN-did-a, almost like canada.

Pictures of diet gurus don't mean much unless they have lived for a significant time on their diet, 20+ years, and even then its still not likely to give us much information since they haven't eaten that way since birth. The bear is one decent example, now having 50 years of carnivorous eating. I remember in the original  "bear" thread, he stated how he had few wrinkles and then when I google imaged him there was a picture of him when he was 62  that showed plenty of wrinkles and he looked just about his age. This picture seemed to have vanished. I was quite dissapointed as he made it seem like this diet had made him invincible. Another picture (well not ever confirmed that it was him) surfaced on the zero carb board. He wasn't looking at the camera but looked again his age, around 72 I believe. He also claimed to be 5% body fat and lift heavy weights twice a week. A video of him doing so would go quite a ways. I thought I would be dunking on kids 50 years younger than me, but maybe this isn't meant to be.

And Tyler, could you come up with one image you think is photoshopped?

[carnivore]

The Bear :

[Paleo Donk]

Yes, thats it and from what I remember that was from 1999 and hes actually 64. For some reason it isn't showing up in the google image searches anymore. I started reading some of his thread again and it completely amazes me how much terminology hes capable of throwing around. Its like every post I see terms I've never heard of before.

[carnivore]

Yes, thats it and from what I remember that was from 1999 and hes actually 64. For some reason it isn't showing up in the google image searches anymore. I started reading some of his thread again and it completely amazes me how much terminology hes capable of throwing around. Its like every post I see terms I've never heard of before.

On the first page of google image (Search Owsley "Bear" Stanley)

[TylerDurden]

This is all pointless. It's a suicidal move to judge one's diet from the appearance of a guru on a photo. No one can seriously claim the photo is or isn't photoshopped, so why bother?

[Paleo Donk]

You were the one proclaiming that most pictures were shopped. It should be pretty easy to find one if that were the case.

[Hannibal]

I too think that it is pointless. That's definitely not statistically significant, how one person looks like.

[William]

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

IMO, Bear wins the beauty contest.   

[RawZi]

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

IMO, Bear wins the beauty contest.   

    I showed bear's picture from here to my vegan dieted husband.  He says bear looks good.

    Thanks for posting bear's pic. 

[invisible]

Judging diet by appearance is silly, since the bone development and appearance while growing effects how you look as an adult. People with symmetrical well developed faces will always look better and younger. Paleo people had good faces because they started their diet from birth which is the most important time with regards to appearance, while most gurus and followers of obscure diets begin once they have already grown. Someone could come here and say SAD is the most superior diet showing pictures of people who follow SAD and look better than anyone in this thread, but of course it would be irrelevant.