food poisoning AGAIN

[razmatazz]

so today, i got food poisoning for the 4th or 5th time since this time last year. The symptoms are always the same - i wake up in the morning with a sharp pain on my right or left abdomen, extending round to my lower back. I may also have horrible pains in my lower abdomen area, which is constant (doesn't come and go). Also, vomiting if i eat or drink anything. The only thing i do is sit or sleep with a hot water bottle held to the area, this is the only thing which seems to help with the symptoms.

I don't get why this keeps happening to me. The meat i eat is frozen 2 weeks usually, as im too paranoid about parasites (is frozen when fresh). Sometimes the meat is aged a bit - for instance yesterday i ate meat that i';d thawed 2 or 3 days before, as well as raw suet.
This never used to happen when i ate a mixed cooked diet, and my family is getting really worried. They accepted my dietary choices but my mum has told me to rethink this. I am the only one in the family who ever gets sick like this. and the only difference is our diet. I really don't know what to do. I cant be missing class every now and again because of this, and it is EXTREMELY unpleasant. If eating this way is making me feel this way, i really do need to rethink what i am doing.
any tips/advice?

[Kokki]

At the beginning of my journal, I suffered from food poisoning too.

You`ve the same problem as I did: frozen meat. It should be eaten immediately after thawing, if at all.

Give a try for fresh meat and forget those parasite things.

[Hannibal]

I've made high-meats form thawed meat and never had a problem.

[lex_rooker]

Your symptoms don't sound like food poisoning to me.  First you say that on most occasions the pain starts suddenly on one side or the other of the lower abdomen.  You then state that the pain commonly involves the lower back (probably on the side where the pain started).  Finally you say that the pain is intense and unrelenting, and that you are nauseous and vomit if you eat or drink anything, and I suspect that if you haven't had anything to eat or drink you have the dry heaves.

From someone who has recently experienced the exact same symptoms, I can say without hesitation that you are probably suffering from renal calculus (kidney stones).  Wonderful aren't they!?!  Based on your description and the relatively short duration of your symptoms, I'd say your stones are fairly small - probably less than 3mm.  My first attack lasted 4 days and my stone was 3.2mm.

There seems to be some evidence that a zero carb diet (or at least a deep ketogenic diet) encourages formation of kidney stones at a rate significantly above what would be expected in the normal population.  My own research seems to point to a deep ketogenic diet (ZC) coupled with reduced water intake as being at the heart of the problem.  Are you drinking lots of water? - at least 3 quarts or liters per day.

Lex
 

[William]

There seems to be some evidence that a zero carb diet (or at least a deep ketogenic diet) encourages formation of kidney stones at a rate significantly above what would be expected in the normal population. 

  We were all hoping that RZC would shrink the stones, so that they would start to pass out, and/or even get smaller.

[cherimoya_kid]

There seems to be some evidence that a zero carb diet (or at least a deep ketogenic diet) encourages formation of kidney stones at a rate significantly above what would be expected in the normal population. 

Forgive my ignorance, Lex...I don't read or post much on ZC forums, so I'm just going to ask you...do other ZCers besides you have kidney stones? I honestly have no idea.

[goodsamaritan]

Does not sound like food poisoning to me.  I would expect diarrhea too.

Maybe the stones, maybe intestinal inflammation, colon blockages?

When I had intestinal inflammation fully cooked fatty pork helped.  I don't know why, but it did.

[razmatazz]

thats interesting lex...i do pretty much eat ZC, and don't really drink alot of water.. I will try and see a doctor in the next couple of days so i can get to the bottom of this. Also, I remember getting food poisoning from an oyster once (that time there was diarrheoa as well) and the symptoms were not as bad...i wasn't in agony. Although sometimes i get muscular aches in the arms and legs as well, and i don't know how to explain that..
This morning i woke up feeling much better, except for a tight feeling in my stomach (once the symptoms lasted one week, but usually they last between 1 and 3 days..)

What would you suggest i do in order to prevent this happening again? More carbs? I am considering adding carbs in the form of white cooked rice, mainly because i don't want a whole load of fructose from fruit and veg, and also because fiber doesn't agree with me..
It's weird because this week, in the days before i got this "attack" i'd been eating more carbs than usual - about 50g a day inthe 2 days preceding it (in the form of white rice)..at first i thought maybe the rice actually caused it, but it seems pretty unlikely.

[raw]

I am considering adding carbs in the form of white cooked rice, mainly because i don't want a whole load of fructose from fruit and veg, and also because fiber doesn't agree with me..

white rice is very bad idea. why don't you do instead brown rice! fruits and veggies are better than rice and they're more paleo. the fructose from fruits are not bad and you can have sometimes diluted green leaf juice for calcium. fivers are not good and never good.

[William]

white rice is very bad idea. why don't you do instead brown rice! fruits and veggies are better than rice and they're more paleo. the fructose from fruits are not bad and you can have sometimes diluted green leaf juice for calcium. fivers are not good and never good.

Not necessarily, as brown rice has oil which can and does go rancid - I once sniffed all the bulk rice in a health food store, and all of it was rancid, and it has phytates as well, which are nutrient blockers.
Hard to find paleolithic fruit or veg outside the tropics, maybe there are some low in fructose though.

[Dissident]

maybe try wild rice instead?

[Paleo Donk]

Forgive my ignorance, Lex...I don't read or post much on ZC forums, so I'm just going to ask you...do other ZCers besides you have kidney stones? I honestly have no idea.

I've followed the zc boards quite a bit and can't recall anyone else having stones.


I just searched pubmed and there seem to be some studies confirming kidney stones in children while on ketogenic diets. Here are some relevant studies

Empiric use of potassium citrate reduces kidney-stone incidence with the ketogenic diet.

"Kidney stones are an adverse event with the ketogenic diet (KD), occurring in approximately 6% of children who are started on this therapy for intractable epilepsy"...

"CONCLUSIONS: Oral potassium citrate is an effective preventive supplement against kidney stones in children who receive the KD, achieving its goal of urine alkalinization. Universal supplementation is warranted"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19596731?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621514?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12366731?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=5

All the studies I found in my 3 minutes of searching focus on specifically children on ketogenic diets with epilepsy.

Obviously, their ketogenic diets would be night and day to what a raw paleo would prescribe but at least the studies are ther.

[lex_rooker]

What would you suggest i do in order to prevent this happening again? More carbs? I am considering adding carbs in the form of white cooked rice, mainly because i don't want a whole load of fructose from fruit and veg, and also because fiber doesn't agree with me..

First I would suggest that next time you have one of these attacks you go to an emergency room and have a CT scan or an X-ray to confirm that kidney stones are truly the problem.  If they won't do that, at least ask them to do a dip test on your urine to see if blood is present.  If it is, even if there isn't enough for you to see it, it points to a moving stone causing internal bleeding as it scrapes its way along the ureters.  This at least will support the kidney stone diagnosis and rule out colon blockage, diverticulitis, pancreatitis, gall bladder, and other issues not related to the urinary tract.   

I actually purchased the urine test sticks to use at home.  They are 'Multistix 10 SG' made by Bayer.  They are expensive, but they will test for ketones, blood, protein, specific gravity, pH, and several other things. They will also test for Leukocytes so you can tell if you have a urinary tract infection as well.  Just do a Google search on Multistix 10 SG and you should be able to find a source for them. 

I wish I could tell you what to do as I'm suffering from the same problem.  If you find out anything conclusive please let us know as many will benefit.  My father suffered from Kidney Stones as does my son-in-law and a couple of friends.  In all cases the only common denominator seems to be reduced fluid intake.  So far I've upped my fluid intake from 1-2 litres per day to 3-4 litres per day.  Only time will tell if this solves the problem.

Lex

[razmatazz]

thanks for the reply lex. Actually, the last time this happened,i saw a doctor, and he took a urine sample. Apparently it was cloudy and there was a little blood in it, so he diagnosed a UTI, and prescribed me antibiotics (however i didnt believe i had a UTI as i didnt have any of the other symptoms eg pain when urinating etc, so i never took the antibiotics, and just recovered naturally). He sent the urine off to get properly tested, but i never found out the results...
I'm going to make an appointment for this week, and hopefully get the results of that test, will post here when i find out.

[lex_rooker]

Blood in the urine supports kidney stones but you would need a CT scan or X-ray to confirm.  Leukocytes are usually the harbinger of a UTI but blood can be present as well.  Leukocytes can also be present with kidney stones but in this case the infection is caused by the bleeding that the stone is causing rather than the infection causing the bleeding. 

Leukocytes high, possible blood present but not always, a feeling of urgency and some stinging type pain with urination, usually w/fever and chills - probably UTI

Blood present, possible leukocytes but not always, intense pain on lower left or right side of abdomen often radiating to back and lasting hours or days, vomiting or dry heaves, little or no fever - probably kidney stone

I've had both so know the symptoms pretty well.  My guess from your description is that you are experiencing kidney stones.  If my doctor prescribed antibiotics I'd ask if there is positive indication that infection exists (example Leukocytes present in urine).  IF so then take the meds as you could loose a kidney to infection if it gets out of hand.  If he just says its a preventative measure, then I'd be more comfortable not taking them until the tests are more conclusive.  Up to you.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

The first thing I thought when I read the symptoms was kidney stones with UTIs or perhaps just UTIs. Those symptoms are similar to what I experienced years ago when I had both from what in retrospect seemed to be mainly gluten and carb intolerance plus the effects of phytic acid.

I've been able to increase my water intake some as I eat more fat (this adds a touch of ketone sweetness to the water) and as I think I get more used to consuming water (not sure what's at work behind that, though). Have you experienced either of these things, Lex?

As I've mentioned before, magnesium kept coming up as another effective preventative, in addition to water (especially magnesium-rich mineral water), in my own research on kidney stones. Some Inuit who basically ate facultatively carnivorous diets were found to have unusually high levels of magnesium in their body fluids, in addition to their habit of drinking loads of water.

[RawZi]

I've been able to increase my water intake some as I eat more fat (this adds a touch of ketone sweetness to the water) and as I think I get more used to consuming water (not sure what's at work behind that, though).

    Do you mean water tastes sweeter when your ketones are up?  Humans tend to like the taste of sweet.  If RZC makes water taste sweet, I think that may mean that more water SHOULD be drank when we're on such a diet. (or at least while the water tastes sweet).  I could be wrong.  I still have not tried 0carb.  I'm sure you learn a lot more by doing it.

[cherimoya_kid]

    Do you mean water tastes sweeter when your ketones are up? 

Yes, that has been my experience as well.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, the sweetness of water on a high animal-fat diet due to some ketone spillage into the saliva, and presumably knowledge passed down the generations to avoid illness, are so far the explanations I can think of for the high consumption of water by Inuit. There may be other reasons as well. It's total speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that eating enough fat to produce a small amount of ketones so that water is slightly sweet may be an optimal level for someone on a VLC, ZC or carnivore diet, so as to encourage the right amount of water consumption. This could be a temporary effect, though, as over time it takes increasing amounts of fat to produce a very slightly sweet taste in my saliva and water, whereas early on less fat produced a very strong sweet taste.

[nicolegreen]

When I was a teenager I suffered from kidney stones a lot. The biggest one I had was 18mm and I had to have it removed via surgery. not fun. Since I went 100% paleo I haven't had a single stone. I'm not zero carb but a lot of the research I did links rice and kidney stones. More kidney stones are reported in china every year then the rest of the world combine. 

[lex_rooker]

I've been able to increase my water intake some as I eat more fat (this adds a touch of ketone sweetness to the water) and as I think I get more used to consuming water (not sure what's at work behind that, though). Have you experienced either of these things, Lex?

Can't say that I've noticed either effect, but then I'm not particularly sensitive to stuff like this.  Now if you gave me a candy bar or a soft drink I'd probably notice the sweetness. I'm amazed when people drink something like wine and comment on the rich full body with complex overtones of lavender and a hint of cinnamon.  To me it all tastes like spoiled grape juice and is scarcely distinguishable from cheap vinegar.

Lex

[RawZi]

... wine and comment on the rich full body with complex overtones of lavender and a hint of cinnamon.  To me it all tastes like spoiled grape juice and is scarcely distinguishable from cheap vinegar.

    I'm fine with a little bit of raw carbs, but bottled grape juice, apple juice, wine any variety etc or any other liquors taste disgusting.  It's great we have a choice though.  When I was a kid, at least grape juice was better than orange juice or milk.  I didn't have the opportunity to know other diets existed (except the school lunch room om bologna and 'sponge' pizza).  We are blessed to have all this knowledge here on this forum, everyone sharing.  

    When starting primal diet eating cultured butter, cultured cream, raw meat, celery juice, etc, after a (raw) egg, water tasted sweet.  Anything tasted sweet and lemons tasted sweet anytime.  It was good, as I disliked the taste of water before that.

[djr_81]

Yes, that has been my experience as well.

And mine.

[Nicola]

Yes, the sweetness of water on a high animal-fat diet due to some ketone spillage into the saliva, and presumably knowledge passed down the generations to avoid illness, are so far the explanations I can think of for the high consumption of water by Inuit. There may be other reasons as well. It's total speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that eating enough fat to produce a small amount of ketones so that water is slightly sweet may be an optimal level for someone on a VLC, ZC or carnivore diet, so as to encourage the right amount of water consumption. This could be a temporary effect, though, as over time it takes increasing amounts of fat to produce a very slightly sweet taste in my saliva and water, whereas early on less fat produced a very strong sweet taste.

Well I always have this sweet taste in my mouth and I notice it a lot - not just when I drink water! I thought it was the body making carbs (carbs...sweet) and I tend to feel guilty - that I don't need to eat if my whole system is so sweet. I hope we are doing the right thing...I mean I get to believe the whole time that this is not healthy - not a balanced diet; no fiber (my Dad).

Nicola

[William]

I recently began to have a nasty sweet aftertaste in the back of the mouth after drinking my organic Colombian coffee, also from the Maubesse (Timor). Tried a (proven safe) commercial coffee, there's less of that taste.

I like the idea that the taste is caused by ketone bodies, but have no idea why coffee should do this, or what it means.