ZC to ZC Raw questions

[Savage]

I've been ZC for almost a year and raw for only a couple of weeks. I've been eating raw: beef, liver and heart all grain fed and ground together in 2lb bags, a couple of lamb heads (brain, tongue and eyes), beef blood and femur bones for marrow.

I'm waiting for my order from slankers, I ordered 70lbs of the pet-food mix with 2-3 organs cause that's the only grass-fed I can afford.

I have a couple of questions:

1-I fight and workout, only supps I still take are 1g calcium citrate, ZMA before bed, a multi with food and sometimes use lite salt(Potassium/sodium mix), I know most people say calcium(and supps in general) is not needed for bones but I get a lot of impact from fighting and working out 3 times a week  and I don't see myself slowing down anytime soon, should I drop or keep the supps and why?

This is what I would consume everyday on average for life:

-Pet food mix from slankers (everyday, as long as it turns out fine) or the grain fed muscle/fat/liver/heart mix when I run out.

-Beef Blood / grain-fed (everyday)

-Femur bones/grain-fed (few times a week)

-Cow/lamb/pig heads / grain-fed (few times a week)

2-The beef blood is mixed with sodium citrate (an anti clotting agent I'm guessing) any negative effects?

[PaleoPhil]

Are you grinding and eating the femur bones?

[Savage]

Are you grinding and eating the femur bones?

Sawing in half and scooping the marrow out with my fingers.

[lex_rooker]

I eat Slankers Pet food as well as their Ground Beef.  My general approach has been to eat things in their natural proportions.  Muscle meats make up about 2/3s to 3/4s the meat in an animal so I try to mix my overall food in about the same ratio – 2/3s high fat ground beef to 1/3 high organ content pet food.  This has worked well for me for about 4 years.  It is also quite economical.

I don’t purchase anything extra except suet as even the high fat ground beef is often a bit too lean for my taste.  They say it is 78% lean and 22% fat, but that is by raw weight.  In other words, they take about 78 lbs of very lean meat and mix it with 22 lbs of fat to make 100 lbs of ground meat.  Raw fat is about 35%  to 40% water and non-fatty tissue which means that only 13 lbs of actual fat is being added or 13%.  Normal lean meat is about 4% fat so the total actual fat for Slanker’s High Fat Ground Beef is about 17%.  I prefer a real fat content of around 25%.  I have a commercial fat analyzer and measure the actual fat content of every batch of meat I order.  It always comes in right around 17% plus or minus 1% or so.

My normal monthly order from Slankers is 18 lbs of High Organ Content pet food, 38 lbs of High Fat Ground Beef, and 8 lbs of beef fat or suet.

My normal mix is 2 lbs of Pet food, 4 lbs of Ground Beef, and ¾ lb ground fat or suet.  The ¾ lb of extra fat adds about 8% fat to the overall mix for a total real fat content of about 25% - again, plus or minus about 1% either way.  I eat between 1 ½ and 2 lbs of this mix every day.

I’ve been eating this way for about 4 years now and the basic ingredients of my daily food have remained the same (Slankers pet food, Slankers ground beef, and fat).  The only thing I vary is the ratio of these three items – usually to adjust the overall fat content.  The only seasoning I use is a pinch of salt (about 1g per day).  The only liquid I drink is water, about 3-4 litres per day.

Zero Carb is not magic. It is just another dietary protocol with its own set of issues and trade-offs.  If you are into regular intense exercise, I’d recommend a VLC dietary protocol with somewhere between 30g and 50g of carbs per day.  A VLC approach seems to be a very successful compromise for athletes.

Lex  

[Savage]

Thanks for the ratios, I think it is too lean because they say the pet food is 90/10 or so, I'll buy their fat and GB as well, no problems eating only these items.

Zero Carb is not magic. It is just another dietary protocol with its own set of issues and trade-offs.  If you are into regular intense exercise, I’d recommend a VLC dietary protocol with somewhere between 30g and 50g of carbs per day.  A VLC approach seems to be a very successful compromise for athletes.

I disagree, ZC is magic. Fat lost, teeth sensitivity and cavities gone, bloating, gas and constipation/stomach pain gone, energy extremely high yet very very calm and relaxed, physical performance (Sexual and Athletic) through the roof. Carbs even in small amounts hurt my teeth, give me stomach pains, dull my senses and mood and zap my energy, I hate them and will never eat them again.

I saw your bone scans but I'm still wondering weather supplemental calcium would be needed since I take a lot more impact than the average person every week? and in turn ZMA (Zinc, Magnesium, B6) and a multi to keep everything "balanced" and if you know anything about sodium citrate as an additive in cow blood I drink?

Thanks Lex.

[Paleo Donk]

Savage, Lex has made this "ZC is not magic" quip numerous times in the past. I think after multiple failures with diets over a very long period of time, he holds his own knowledge in greatest suspicion and does not want to lead anybody down the wrong path. Virtually no one has tried ZC for more than a few years in the last century and so there is no data. Maybe everyone dies after 10 years on this diet? Maybe he means ZC is not magic in the long run as there are no long term results.

But, we can make inferences and guesses and speculate on the future, which is what I like doing. One of the best ways to really put someone to the test on their beliefs is to place a wager with them one way or another and that I will do now.

 I can test whether or not "ZC is magic in the short-run" is indeed what Lex really thinks. This depends on the definition of magic, but and I agree its pretty similar to how you described it above. This bet is going to based on the knowledge I have read on here. I can place a friendly wager against Lex specifically with regards to the calcification going on inside his kidneys. I will offer any amount of money up to $300 laying him 5-1 odds (meaning I put 500 for every 100 Lex puts up) that his kidney calcification stays the same or decreases over the next year. He can even use this as a kind of an insurance if he wants. People will show their true colors when they put their money where their mouth is.

[ForTheHunt]

If you got a negative attitude about something you've already failed.

For me a diet high in raw meat and fat has been very good and so far of all the diets i've tried, and believe me I've tried them all it's by far the best.

[Hannibal]

For me a diet high in raw meat and fat has been very good and so far of all the diets i've tried, and believe me I've tried them all it's by far the best.

Yes, I'll agree with this statement. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't eat any carbs. Carbs are not a poison, as some people tell us - they're very important (in small amounts, of course)

[William]

Yes, I'll agree with this statement. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't eat any carbs. Carbs are not a poison, as some people tell us - they're very important (in small amounts, of course)

Carbs can stop the conversion of our bodies from carb burning to fat burning, so it sure looks like a poison, depending on what kind of carbs.
For instance there is supposed to ~4% carbs in the leanest of meat; that must be the right kind.

[Hannibal]

Carbs can stop the conversion of our bodies from carb burning to fat burning, so it sure looks like a poison, depending on what kind of carbs.

You can consume 100 g of carbs and still burning fat as your primal source of energy. Read the biochemistry.

For instance there is supposed to ~4% carbs in the leanest of meat; that must be the right kind.

4%? Where do you get it from? Look at the nutritional data.

[klowcarb]

I'm an athlete and I'm thriving on zero carb! 30 carbs is not necessary unless you want them. I'm eating fatty ground beef and eggs, one meal a day and never had so much energy or success.

[PaleoPhil]

Lex, you know the numbers better than me. Can you give me a guesstimate on what weight proportions I should use when eating 2.2 lbs of meat and fat a day, using only grass-fed ground beef and tallow melted at 130 degrees F?

[lex_rooker]

Lex, you know the numbers better than me. Can you give me a guesstimate on what weight proportions I should use when eating 2.2 lbs of meat and fat a day, using only grass-fed ground beef and tallow melted at 130 degrees F?

Since tallow is 100% fat then adding 1.6 ounces to 1 lb (16 oz) of ground meat would raise the fat content by about 10%.  The only ground meat that I'm really familiar with is Slankers.  Their regular ground beef runs about 12% fat and their high fat ground beef runs about 17-18% fat.  Adding 1.6 oz per lb of the regular ground beef would raise the total fat to about 22% and adding 1.6 oz per lb of the high fat ground beef would raise the total fat content to about 28%.

22% fat is about 74% calories from fat.
28% fat is about 80% calories from fat.

Not sure if this is what you were asking so if I missed the mark let me know.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

This bet is going to based on the knowledge I have read on here. I can place a friendly wager against Lex specifically with regards to the calcification going on inside his kidneys. I will offer any amount of money up to $300 laying him 5-1 odds (meaning I put 500 for every 100 Lex puts up) that his kidney calcification stays the same or decreases over the next year. He can even use this as a kind of an insurance if he wants. People will show their true colors when they put their money where their mouth is.

I never bet on anything (I hate Las Vegas), but if I did, trust me, this is a bet I'd hope you win.  Also I've significantly changed my water intake so the conditions that might have formed the stones has changed.  If the stones become smaller or stay the same there is no way to know if it is due to the increased water intake or if the stones are were longstanding and they reduce in size due to core diet.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks Lex. I want to try upping my fat to the 80% by calories ratio.

So assuming my grassfed ground beef is also 12% fat by calories, if I start with 2 lbs beef (they come in one lb packages), I think I need to add 9 oz of tallow to reach 80% calories as fat:

32 oz beef + 9 oz tallow = 41 oz total (2.56 lbs)
78% beef + 22% tallow by weight

I have a scale now, so I could make several days mix in advance and measure out my daily intake of about 2.2 to 2.3 lbs per day, instead of just eyeing things.

[Hannibal]

I'm an athlete and I'm thriving on zero carb! 30 carbs is not necessary unless you want them. I'm eating fatty ground beef and eggs, one meal a day and never had so much energy or success.

I'm glad that you thrive on zero-carb.
Some other people thrive on 100% vegan diet and are athletes too.
But it's very small minority, statistically insignificant.

[lex_rooker]

I have a scale now, so I could make several days mix in advance and measure out my daily intake of about 2.2 to 2.3 lbs per day, instead of just eyeing things.

To save time and hassle I usually mix up 15 or 20 lbs at a time. I take the frozen meat packages and place them in the refrigerator to thaw for 24 to 48 hours. Once thawed I mix everything together and then weigh out single serving portions into ziploc bags and refreeze these until needed.  Each morning I take one serving out of the freezer and place it in the refrigerator to thaw, and I take the serving that is in the refrigerator and set it out to warm up for the day's meal.  This way I only have to spend time mixing food about once every 10 days or so.

I also use the cheapest ziploc bags I can find.  I think the ones I'm currently using cost about 2 cents each if you buy 300 at a time so a year's supply is about $7.50 USD.  I just use them once and throw them away as the hot water and soap necessary to clean them would cost more than the original price of the bag.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks. I can't do the bulk thing right now. Are my numbers right?

[lex_rooker]

Thanks. I can't do the bulk thing right now. Are my numbers right?

32 oz of ground beef containing 12% fat would have 108g fat and 176 protein – the rest of the weight would be mostly water.  Total calories would be:

108 x 9 = 972 calories from fat
176 x 4.3 = 756 calories from protein
Total calories = 1728

972 / 1728 = 56% of calories from fat
756 / 1728 = 44% of calories from protein

If you add 9 oz of pure fat to this
9oz x 28.3 = 255g

255 x 9 = 2,295 additional calories.

Calcs for the new mix with 9 oz fat added would be:

972 + 2,295 = 3267 calories from fat plus 756 calories from protein for total calories of 4,023.

3267 / 4023 = 81% calories from fat
756 / 4023 = 19% calories from protein.

Total fat consumed would be 363 grams
Total protein consumed would be 176 grams
Total weight of food consumed would be 2.5 lbs or 1.16 kg

That is a lot of food.  I really can’t consume 4,000 calories every day without gaining a good bit of weight.  I find that 1.75 lbs of food is usually plenty which is about 800g (0.8kg) which your mix above would provide about 2,775 calories.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

That is a lot of food.  I really can’t consume 4,000 calories every day without gaining a good bit of weight.  I find that 1.75 lbs of food is usually plenty which is about 800g (0.8kg) which your mix above would provide about 2,775 calories.

Yes, I know. I just used the two pounds of meat figure because it comes closest to what I eat in a day and my packages come in one pound quantities. I suppose I could have used a one pound package as the starting point, but I tend to think in terms of two packages out of habit. I'll probably do something like make a week's worth of packages at a time on weekends, dividing the meat/fat mix into daily portions. I've been eating closer to 2+ lbs total meat/fat per day recently in an effort to gain weight, which has worked, but at some point I'll probably cut down to somewhere around your portion size. I may need to go a bit lower too, so I can include some eggs, liver and occasional seafood. Thanks for the data.

[miles]

Is 'Beef Dripping' a good source of extra fat?

[lex_rooker]

Is 'Beef Dripping' a good source of extra fat?

If what you are referring to is the fat that is left after roasting fatty cuts of beef, then what you actually have is rendered fat.  It would be just as good (or bad, depending on how you look at cooking) as any other rendered fat.  I use rendered fat quite often as it is a convenient way to store fat.  Some people believe that rendered fat is hazardous to your health because it has been cooked.  I've had no problem with it and believe it is far better than the junk most people eat.  To me, the convenience of using rendered fat far out weighs any perceived drawbacks - but that is only my opinion.

Lex

[William]

If what you are referring to is the fat that is left after roasting fatty cuts of beef, then what you actually have is rendered fat.  It would be just as good (or bad, depending on how you look at cooking) as any other rendered fat. 
Lex

I cannot agree. I assume that you are too polite to call it tallow, whatever, it tastes far better than any tallow I've ever made, and it does not keep.

[PaleoPhil]

Lex, I have experienced a negative effect from heating tallow. When I heated it to 190 F instead of my usual 130 F, I developed lots of burping. I didn't recognize the cause of it until I made a new batch of tallow at my usual 130 F and didn't get the burping after eating. I had also left the tallow heating in the crock pot longer than I had before at the 190 F temp, so I don't know if it was just the higher temp that did it or the time too. It tasted slightly burnt and I hadn't gotten this effect from eating higher-heated tallow before, so maybe this only happens when it's burnt. Some day maybe I'll test 190 F again with a shorter heating time.

Danny Roddy thinks the stomach upset he got from tallow may have been related to this also, as he noticed a burnt odor to his tallow when I mentioned his.

[lex_rooker]

Lex, I have experienced a negative effect from heating tallow. When I heated it to 190 F instead of my usual 130 F, I developed lots of burping. I didn't recognize the cause of it until I made a new batch of tallow at my usual 130 F and didn't get the burping after eating. I had also left the tallow heating in the crock pot longer than I had before at the 190 F temp, so I don't know if it was just the higher temp that did it or the time too. It tasted slightly burnt and I hadn't gotten this effect from eating higher-heated tallow before, so maybe this only happens when it's burnt. Some day maybe I'll test 190 F again with a shorter heating time.

Danny Roddy thinks the stomach upset he got from tallow may have been related to this also, as he noticed a burnt odor to his tallow when I mentioned his.

Tallow that is truly rendered at 130 deg could be deficient in some of the fatty acids as some may not melt and render out of the tissues at that temperature.  It would also contain a good deal of moisture which would affect the keeping qualities - which may or may not concern you depending on how soon you consume it.  I've never had a problem with rendered fat, even when rendered at up to 240F.  In any case, I always render above 212F to drive out the moisture.

Danny has eaten my pemmican many times and never complained of any problems.  Maybe he was just too kind to mention them.

Lex