ZC to ZC Raw questions

[TylerDurden]

Lex, AFAIK, fermented fruit can only ever be very mildly alcoholic. It has to be distilled(ie heated) to get sufficiently high enough levels of alcohol in the mixture, such as spirits etc.

[lex_rooker]

Lex, AFAIK, fermented fruit can only ever be very mildly alcoholic. It has to be distilled(ie heated) to get sufficiently high enough levels of alcohol in the mixture, such as spirits etc.

And tallow and biodiesel don't?  I guess I find both sides of the argument ludicrous.

Lex

[TylerDurden]

And tallow and biodiesel don't?  I guess I find both sides of the argument ludicrous.

Lex

 Well, that's not really valid. Indeed, all it shows is that foods should be eaten in raw and unrefined form, and that once they're heated/cooked such as in the case of tallow, they are suitable only as biodiesel , soap, candlewax, paint-remover and the like.

[William]

 Well, that's not really valid. Indeed, all it shows is that foods should be eaten in raw and unrefined form, and that once they're heated/cooked such as in the case of tallow, they are suitable only as biodiesel , soap, candlewax, paint-remover and the like.

"Tallow is used for soaps, leather dressings, candles, food, and lubricants. It is used in producing synthetic surfactants."
From the link on my Tallow concern thread, which I hope you will answer.

[PaleoPhil]

Tyler, I'll start with where we appear to agree. I agree that foods generally should preferably be eaten in less-processed forms.

Where we apparently disagree is with your claim that "Fruit is just used re soap for fruit-essence(ie scent)" and your singling out of tallow while giving a pass to fruit products. Fruit products are used in many more ways than just scent essences. Plus you are leaving out that food-grade tallow has to be processed further and generally has other ingredients added to it to make soap, candlewax and biodiesel, and you are also leaving out that fruit seed and leaf oils can also be the key ingredient of those very same products and more. This site even spells out the similarity [emphasis mine]:

"Biodiesel from tallow can be easily made using very similar processes to plant oils." ("Biodiesel From Tallow," www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/biodiesel-from-tallow.html)

A toxic alcohol (generally methanol or ethanol) and a toxic catalyst--usually lye (NaOH), Potassium hydroxide (KOH) aka caustic potash, or alkoxides--must be added to tallow or plant oils to make biodiesel. So biodiesel toxicity likely comes more from the toxic catalysts and additional heating at much higher temps, rather than from just the food-grade tallow or plant oils themselves.

Biodiesel production
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel_production

biodiesel from tallow
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/making_biodiesel/289-biodiesel_tallow.html

Re: [biofuel] Pork tallow biodiesel?
http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg36029.html
[Note that cod liver oil and mustard oil can also be used to make biodiesel--do you consider them unhealthy too just because of this or are high heating and addition of toxic catalysts more the problem?]

[TylerDurden]

My original point was to show that cooking/processing was what rendered foods useless for health, fruit was just an example. Whatever the case, I've never heard of fruit being used to make biodiesel or candlewax as the main ingredient thereof.

[PaleoPhil]

My original point was to show that cooking/processing was what rendered foods useless for health, fruit was just an example.

Yes, cooking and processing fruits does reduce their nutritional value, though saying it makes them useless seems a tad strong, because it depends on what you're comparing to. If a person's starving for calories or experiencing rabbit starvation, then cooked/processed fruit would be better than no fruit at all.

Whatever the case, I've never heard of fruit being used to make biodiesel or candlewax as the main ingredient thereof.

Well, now you know...

Fruit oils used in biodiesel:

"Coconut Biodiesel," http://www.cogeneration.net/coconut_biodiesel.htm

"Enzyme catalyzed production of biodiesel from olive oil," http://www.springerlink.com/content/9r34268247778755

"Farmer turns to fruit tree to power tractors," http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/08/08/farmer.fuel/index.html

"Preparation of biodiesel from Idesia polycarpa var. vestita [aka hairy Japanese orange cherry] fruit oil," http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T77-4VGMP43-1&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1205617172&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2da2a11f1993978c840a01e805afeb04

Fruit oils used in candlewax:

"To obtain a softer, more pliable wax, Michael started to acquire and test a wider range of tropical and domestic plant oils. This included partially hydrogenated coconut, palm, and soybean oils." http://www.ecolightcandles.com/history.htm

"This all natural wax is made from 100% Coconut Oil," http://www.swanscandles.com/store/AllNaturalOrganicCandleWaxes.html

"...candles featuring high quality, cosmetic ingredients like avocado oil, coconut oil, shea butter, cocoa butter, vitamin E, and more."

"Most of the early Greek and Roman candles were made from a thread of flax coated with wax and pitch.  In other countries, candles were made of palm oil, coconut oil, beeswax and olive oil." http://www.tristatecandlesupply.net/Candle_Making_Wax/candlemaking.htm

etc., etc.

[carnivore]

Yes, cooking and processing fruits does reduce their nutritional value, though saying it makes them useless seems a tad strong, because it depends on what you're comparing to. If a person's starving for calories or experiencing rabbit starvation, then cooked/processed fruit would be better than no fruit at all.
Well, now you know...

I am not sure juicing fruits reduce their nutritional value. Removing the undigestable part of the fruit (fibers) can benefit to people with compromised digestive system.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, cooking and processing fruits does reduce their nutritional value, though saying it makes them useless seems a tad strong, because it depends on what you're comparing to. If a person's starving for calories or experiencing rabbit starvation, then cooked/processed fruit would be better than no fruit at all.
Well, now you know...

Fruits, last I checked, are even more severely affected by heat that meat, so they would be largely useless except in exceptional circumstances, such as the above, and then only as a 10th-rate measure. As for carnivore's comment re juicing, I'm sceptical. I mean one only has to look at the nasty side-effects many RVAFers report from drinking veggie-juice(as opposed to certain varieties of raw solid veg which most RVAFers are fine with). Now, granted that fruit doesn't contain the antinutrients found in raw veg, so, unlike veggie-jucie, doesn't have lots of highly concentrated antinutrients within it, but I suspect that the fibre is useful for various processes(such as stabilising blood glucose levels etc.), so that drinking raw fruit-juice would only be effective as a very short-term measure.

Fruit oils used in biodiesel:

"Coconut Biodiesel," http://www.cogeneration.net/coconut_biodiesel.htm
etc., etc.

Interesting. Still means they have to be heated/processed in order to make such fuels.

[PaleoPhil]

Fruits, last I checked, are even more severely affected by heat that meat, so they would be largely useless except in exceptional circumstances, such as the above, and then only as a 10th-rate measure.

Yeah, we basically agree there.

...I suspect that the fibre is useful for various processes(such as stabilising blood glucose levels etc.), so that drinking raw fruit-juice would only be effective as a very short-term measure.

Yes, and I don't do well when I consume even fresh-squeezed fruit juices. They may be OK for some folks, but not me. They seem to affect me worse than whole fruit, so I think you're right that the fiber in fruit diminishes some of the negative effects of the sugars in fruit. I've seen others make that claim also.

Interesting. Still means they have to be heated/processed in order to make such fuels.

Yes, but so does tallow. Food grade tallow is reheated at higher temps and a toxic catalyst and toxic methanol have to be added to it to make biodiesel. From what I read, the process is identical to using fruit oil to make biodiesel except that tallow is used as the organic ingredient instead of fruit oil, and fruit oil is apparently more useful overall as biodiesel than tallow (because tallow solidifies at room temp.).

[TylerDurden]

Yes, but so does tallow. Food grade tallow is reheated at higher temps and a toxic catalyst and toxic methanol have to be added to it to make biodiesel. From what I read, the process is identical to using fruit oil to make biodiesel except that tallow is used as the organic ingredient instead of fruit oil, and fruit oil is apparently more useful overall as biodiesel than tallow (because tallow solidifies at room temp.).

  You're wrongly comparing tallow to raw fruit, despite the fact that they are in different states re raw/cooked. You should be viewing  raw suet and raw fruit by comparison with processed fruit oils and processed tallow. In other words any processing ruins a food and makes it only fit for candlewax/soap/biodiesel etc. depending on the level of processing involved.

[William]

   You should be viewing  raw suet and raw fruit by comparison with processed fruit oils and processed tallow. In other words any processing ruins a food and makes it only fit for candlewax/soap/biodiesel etc. depending on the level of processing involved.

Tallow is not processed.
It is as close as we can get to pure essential fatty acids.

Fat is processed. Tallow is not processed.

Your confusion is evident, and so is the brain fog.

[TylerDurden]

Tallow is not processed.
It is as close as we can get to pure essential fatty acids.

Fat is processed. Tallow is not processed.

Your confusion is evident, and so is the brain fog.

Tallow is not processed.
It is as close as we can get to pure essential fatty acids.

Fat is processed. Tallow is not processed.

Your confusion is evident, and so is the brain fog.

  It's so hilarious when you state something that is so self-evidently wrong, as it shows that you must be afflicted with brain-fog yourself(and that's not even including your constant  dumb claims that pemmican is always raw). Tallow has to be heated/rendered in order for it to change from raw suet to tallow. Rendering is a process, as shown by wikipedia et al:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_(food_processing)


"The process of liberating the fat from the cells that constitute the adipose tissue. Dry rendering, heating the fat dry, or wet rendering, when water is present." taken from answers.com etc. etc.

[carnivore]

  It's so hilarious when you state something that is so self-evidently wrong, as it shows that you must be afflicted with brain-fog yourself(and that's not even including your constant  dumb claims that pemmican is always raw). Tallow has to be heated/rendered in order for it to change from raw suet to tallow. Rendering is a process, as shown by wikipedia et al:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_(food_processing)


"The process of liberating the fat from the cells that constitute the adipose tissue. Dry rendering, heating the fat dry, or wet rendering, when water is present." taken from answers.com etc. etc.

William is ready to defend pemmican as it was is life, because it seems that is is the only food he has found that enables him to survive.
I am sure if he was more open minded, he would find that real rawpaleo food, including from the vegetal kingdom, could really heal him.

[RawZi]

William is ready to defend pemmican as it was is life, because it seems that is is the only food he has found that enables him to survive.
I am sure if he was more open minded, he would find that real rawpaleo food, including from the vegetal kingdom, could really heal him.

    Home made freshly cultured grassfed kefir may work better than dried warmed strained meat product.

    William, can you make this kefir?

[RawZi]

   Home made freshly cultured grassfed kefir may work better than dried warmed strained meat product.

    William, can you make this kefir?

    See my latest entry on my posts.  I see (now) this is in totally meat topic.  Sorry.  I'm not into pemmican, but if you like it, I don't like telling people to eat what they dislike.

[PaleoPhil]

<<Quote from: PaleoPhil on February 14, 2010, 10:22:08 PM
Yes, but so does tallow. Food grade tallow is reheated at higher temps and a toxic catalyst and toxic methanol have to be added to it to make biodiesel. From what I read, the process is identical to using fruit oil to make biodiesel except that tallow is used as the organic ingredient instead of fruit oil, and fruit oil is apparently more useful overall as biodiesel than tallow (because tallow solidifies at room temp.).>>

 You're wrongly comparing tallow to raw fruit, ...

I didn't write "raw fruit," I wrote "fruit oil." Just as tallow is not raw, unprocessed suet, so fruit oil is not raw, unprocessed fruit.

despite the fact that they are in different states re raw/cooked. You should be viewing  raw suet and raw fruit by comparison with processed fruit oils and processed tallow.

As I recall, you were questioning the merits of tallow, not raw suet. If you want to question the latter, by all means, proceed and then I'll compare raw fruit to it.

In other words any processing ruins a food and makes it only fit for candlewax/soap/biodiesel etc. depending on the level of processing involved.

I thought we already agreed on that. That's not the subject of this discussion. I already believed that tallow is a suboptimal food and have stated that in the past, as has Lex many times. We only took issue with your implication that that tallow must be regarded as highly toxic simply because it can be made into biodiesel (by reheating it at higher temps and adding a toxic catalyst and toxic methanol to it). The same thing can be done with fruit oil, yet you haven't claimed that fruit oil is highly toxic. Do you believe fruit oils like coconut oil and fruit seed oils are highly toxic because they can be made into biodiesel in the same way as tallow or don't you?