Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?

[jessica]

I always look for the positive but I just happen to question things and come on - quite a few are suffering in one way or another.

Nicola

the disorder factors in just as any situation in life
if you try something and it makes you worse or doesnt improve your health but you are insistent that this is the only proper way to eat, that is what makes it a disorder
so perhaps those who are insistent on a diet that is not proper or healing to their current health situation do having eating disorders.
another factor would be the amount of time spent thinking about or talking about this way of eating.  however i think that is just brought to light because most of us do not know other paleo dieter so our time/energy is documented on the internet.  that social aspect of preparing, eating with others is somewhat diminished. and most people here are are very curious, want to help others and seek out science to explain how and why this diet is best for them because it is contrary to the standard and perhaps it helps them accept the fact and also promote it to other people who may benefit.  i find it interesting how a question such as "why dont we eat like our ancestors" can lead to so many diverse discussions

so
continuing to eat a certain way when it has proven time and time again to be detrimental to the health and obsessing over it, why its not working, if you arent doing it perfectly instead of moving towards something that may be more beneficial=eating disorder
obsessing over finding/spreading a diet that has helped you personally to achieve superior health=silly/ego/philanthropic but not entirely disordered unless the obsession leads to unbalance in other areas of life

[miles]

Our maids are on high carbohydrate rice diet so they're starting to get fat as they age.

Maids!

Nicola, it's a bit pointless starting such controversial posts.

I don't think it's pointless... Some people here seem to experience problems over a long period of time, and call them detoxes, e.g. vomiting, diahrrea, pains. Others have irritability/sensitivity over a long period and say it's because they're clean/detoxed. Anyway, loads seem to have these sort of problems and just shrug them off and keep going, "It must be good".

That doesn't mean Paleo, or Raw Paleo is an eating disorder. However, lots of people eating Paleo/Raw Paleo, and posting on these forums, seem to have eating disorders...

[TylerDurden]

Actually, very few people here have any sort of eating disorders. And while detoxes exist, they're of minor import. In almost all cases they're of minor severity and duration and vanish after some years, with people nearly always feeling better afterwards. Sure there are 1 or 2 outliers who may be seriously ill from some past health-problem which a rawpalaeodiet can't solve(I mean rawpalaeodiet is useful but it can't perform miracles like regrowing kidneys or whatever), but that's of no real consequence.

[cherimoya_kid]

I have to say, I don't give much of a damn about eating disorders.  I care about health.  WTF is an eating disorder?  Can you measure it? Sure, you can measure death from anorexia or bulemia, etc., but nobody here has those problems, that I'm aware of.

Eating disorder...that's like saying someone who plays video games 30 minutes a day has a "video-game" disorder, or someone who has sex 1 hour a week has a "sex disorder".

The definition of the term has to be stretched beyond usefulness to include the rawpaleo diet. I'm not saying there aren't a few NEWBIES who get a little extreme, but this diet leads you away from stupid eating behavior, if anything.

[William]

As TD points out, from a technical as well as a statistical point of view such clear cut conclusions drawn from isotope analysis of a few remains are highly questionable. It is unfortunately not possible to discuss these technical matters seriously here.

Yes, too bad but that's what we have, to determine what they ate.

the only reasonable serious position by now is that we can absolutely not yet conclude that our paleo ancestors were merely carnivores.    

Merely? Carnivores must be more intelligent that their food, unless their food cannot escape, like the neolithic fruit & veg. that TD eats.
I propose that fativores must be even more intelligent, unlike lions which AFAIK don't care if their prey is lean, and those unfortunates who have been deceived by the low fat trolls.

I wonder if there is any bone analysis that could show percentage of fat consumption?

[alphagruis]

Merely? Carnivores must be more intelligent that their food, unless their food cannot escape, like the neolithic fruit & veg. that TD eats.
I propose that fativores must be even more intelligent, unlike lions which AFAIK don't care if their prey is lean, and those unfortunates who have been deceived by the low fat trolls.

I wonder if there is any bone analysis that could show percentage of fat consumption?

Well I just meant (English is not my native language) that things are most likely not that simple as plain carnivorism and our ancestors were a priori opportunists taking advantage of all available resources.

Notice also that including plant food into our ancestor's diet besides animal meat and fat, fish etc , i.e. being omnivore, implies clearly the same hunting or fishing abilities and skills as 100% carnivores + the appropriate knowledge of what kind of plant food can be safely eaten as well as where to gather it.

In other words omnivores must actually be more or at least as intelligent as carnivores.

And I agree "fativore" would certainly be much more appropriate for homo sapiens than "carnivore". We are not capable to handle as much protein catabolism waste as typical carnivores.

[goodsamaritan]

FATIVORES!!!!

Love the new word.

Must be highlighted: FATIVORES!

[Hannibal]

What carbs could paleo men have eaten in large quantity?  The occasional berries represented what, 0,5% of their calorie intake? And berries were available how many months of the year, 1 maybe 2?  Same thing for nuts.

For millions of years humans have lived in hot regions, near the Equator. There was a lot of fruits, veggies, seeweeds all the year. Besides there are carbs in shellfish.

[Paleo Donk]

Every paper I've seen on stable isotope analysis of paleolithic era bones shows that we were carnivore.

I need to ammend this as this is wrong. I think the papers that do stable isotope analysis generally agree that the protein consumed is mainly if not all from animal protein. Seeing that there is very little protein that comes from vegetation I suppose it would be very hard to measure it in the bones. Apparently measuring fat or carbohydrate consupmtion from bones is not possible.

There was another paper Tyler posted back a couple weeks ago which implied that we ate the lean parts of the meat, left the fat and instead chose vegetation for energy instead of fat. This would be one way to explain how our bones could look very carnivorous but not necessary imply that our diets were.

I wonder if the bones of TD and Lex would differ drastically since they probably both get a similar amount of protein from animal sources though energy from fats and carbs are going to be much different. With that said, I'd guess that TD, since you get around 35% of your energy from carbs and probably 20% from protein that your fat intake is going to be in the 40-50% range which means that you are substituting animal fats for carbs.

[TylerDurden]

Incorrect. I only said I ate 35% of diet as an absolute extreme at times(ie mostly in the summer). Normally, it's much lower than that.

[William]

Seeing that there is very little protein that comes from vegetation I suppose it would be very hard to measure it in the bones.

Make that zero protein from veg. Nutty vegetarians rave about protein from veggies, when they mean amino acids. It takes 22 or 24 amino acids to make a protein, and they all must be present. They never are all present in plants; the proof is that plants have no muscles.

There was another paper Tyler posted back a couple weeks ago which implied that we ate the lean parts of the meat, left the fat and instead chose vegetation for energy instead of fat.

Tyler either makes those up or finds the most dubious "research" ever. The record shows that lean meat was always dog food. See redfulcrum's death defying experiment.

[PaleoPhil]

On his blog Matt Stone has often quoted the Paleo Diet. What I find more interesting are the answers from people who reported going down hill on a paleo, low carb and many other diets.

Nicola, Did you read the examples he gave? I doubt that anyone here eats like most of the folks in his examples. Here are the first four examples he gives at http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/search?q=carb+wars (and they are not even all "low carb," much less raw Paleo or Paleo):
i. 16? weeks of 349g protein per day, 50g carbs per day with meat, vegetables, and oils [way more protein by % than most of us eat and I doubt many here eat only oils for fat]
ii. an example he admits is "not exactly a low-carb story" [WTH? Not even low-carb? Then why is it in a "low carb failure" post?]
iii. a month of being on fermented cream, peanut butter, butter, eggs, olive oil and "extremely small and ridiculous amounts of meat, and vegetables"[peanut butter? "extremely small" amounts of meat? how is this like us?]
iv. 50-70g carbs/day; meats, fish, eggs, veggies, nuts, nut butters, raw cream, cheeses from raw milk, avocados, butter, tallow, lard, bacon grease and coconut oil  [this one probably comes closest to us, but nut butters? And many of us eat little or no dairy]

So none of these examples are RPD. I didn't have time to do more searching. Did you find any RPD examples?


Tyler's carb intake is much lower than folks might expect and I actually haven't noticed anyone reporting eating more carbs than in the SAD (about 50%). Does anyone here get more than 50% of their calories from carbs? If not, a lot of this debating seems to be making mountains out of molehills, since most vegans would probably consider most of us to be LC, as most of them seem to consider SAD to be deficient in carbs at 50%.

[jessica]

So that bring me to ask: are we too much cleaning our self that we have weaker ability to deal with theses ?
 
Is it weakness, or is it just that sharing moments while eating "not the best healing" food with people we love is actually worth more in the long run...?

a weakness!lol....or just not enough respect for your own health, from yourself or from others.
i definitely share meal time, just no the same cuisine, with others...i cook for people at work and home... but i would never think to compromise my health to appease social obligations or to fit into a society that is polluted enough to be apathetic to their mental and physical health conditions...although i have never been one to eat fast food or snacks, i would never want to think my constitution "strong" enough to be able to "deal" with a twinkie or gordita or whatever

[Paleo Donk]

Make that zero protein from veg. Nutty vegetarians rave about protein from veggies, when they mean amino acids. It takes 22 or 24 amino acids to make a protein, and they all must be present. They never are all present in plants; the proof is that plants have no muscles.

Tyler either makes those up or finds the most dubious "research" ever. The record shows that lean meat was always dog food. See redfulcrum's death defying experiment.

Call me a goat. Nom Nom Nom Nom Nom...burp

[djr_81]

So that bring me to ask: are we too much cleaning our self that we have weaker ability to deal with theses ?

I've pondered this myself for many years as my diet has gotten more and more reduced due to ever increasing food allergies. Each time I cut something else out it seemed that my reactions were stronger when I did zing myself. I wondered if I was metaphorically painting myself into a corner.
I finally came to the conclusion that this was actually a good thing; our bodies can't mount true reactions when we're under the stress of frequent toxins because we're too run down. As we reduce these daily bombardments we have much more pronounced reactions to those toxins we do ingest. While the short-term negatives do seem oppressive the long-term and overall benefits do far outweigh the negative.

[William]

Tyler's carb intake is much lower than folks might expect and I actually haven't noticed anyone reporting eating more carbs than in the SAD (about 50%). Does anyone here get more than 50% of their calories from carbs? If not, a lot of this debating seems to be making mountains out of molehills, since most vegans would probably consider most of us to be LC, as most of them seem to consider SAD to be deficient in carbs at 50%.

I suggest that the critical difference is that between carb burning bodies and those running on ketone bodies.
Those who can't hack the change must eat enough carbs to prevent it, or suffer withdrawal symptoms.

[funkymonk]

I would like to add something. I will try to make an analogy. It will not sound the best one to most of you but still, I will just try to express my point. To stay in shape, we have to exercise. not stay on a couch "saving" our energy to make it last longer. but when we are sick or tired, we need to rest. some may say what a stupid analogy. but take a moment to consider it in link to diet. If I am sick, I eat the good food. and here I agree 100% with you guys since I am here, cause I have been sick. Candida was my issue, at least as far as I know. But now that I have rebalanced my health, I can say that I can eat junk food, as less as possible, but still can. I know am not nourishing my body on theses food , but what if I was just "exercising" my body when I do so? and again, this is only my story. I am in no way capable of talking for ANYONE ELSE.

We know that we have most of our genetic coming from our ancestor which I am convinced were eating a lot more raw, without processed food, preservatives, chemicals, and all that crap that is in most food available today. But, it's still been a while we are cooking, eating grains, dairy. Probably those aren't optimal but here I go again with my analogy, what if these weren't just "exercises" for our body?

One more word about the pleasure we get from eating with people we love around us. We, humans, are a social animal. And again, I am only talking for myself, but being able to "not care" what the hell if this isn't the best food for me, is a liberation. And who knows, maybe the positives effects on the whole body we get from gathering with friends, having a good time, just doing the dumb ass once in a while, has a lot more impact than we think on our overall health?

Paix et amour.

[TylerDurden]

Does anyone here get more than 50% of their calories from carbs?

I think there are 1 or 2 Instincto-types who might be above 50% re carbs, not sure.

[djr_81]

Funkymonk: I can see where you're coming from and when I look at it more I do tend to agree with you. Eating a wide variety of foods does exercise our bodies, especially our organs, but like everything it must be done in moderation or else it can be very detrimental.
Most of us are still in the recovery phase of our health so cooked food really isn't an option. After the body is healed up to where it should be the occasional cooked meal, provided it's cooked intelligently, shouldn't kill us. Yeah, you'll feel crappy for a day but it's like catching a cold.
Along the same lines are carbohydrates IMO. We're an adaptive species and while meat and fat will sustain most of us just fine it's best, IMO, to not close that avenue of food down completely if possible. I'm strictly carnivorous right now while my body heals but some day I'll likely add back in some very light carbs (probably berries) just because it intuitively feels more right.
I do feel that "junk food" should still be avoided at all costs. Grains are just bad for us and fractionated simple carbohydrates as you'll find in most "junk food" are almost toxic on their load & detrimental effect to the body.

[TylerDurden]

It's not just a question of regaining health. There are other concerns too. For example, the heat-created toxins in cooked foods are known to lead to increased aging. And, like I said, one can socialise with people without compromising one's principles re diet. I'll admit occasionally miss certain cooked foods such as eismarillenknoedel etc., but I've seen what harm such processed non-palaeo foods have done to me and others so I'm quite able to do without.

[Nicola]

Funkymonk that's just what I get to hear at my mum and dad's - eat and don't think; you think too much! Your body is made to deal with food - the colon is made to deal with grains, cake...and they seem to be able to deal with it...

They are kind of like this Matt Stone and again if you read the answers he got - paleo didn't seem to do it for some.

I mentioned Matt Stone to this PaNu guy and ...


http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/2/5/180-180-360.html

plus

http://freetheanimal.com/2010/02/richard-nikoley-has-a-low-body-temperature-and-edema-you-be-the-judge.html

Nicola

[PaleoPhil]

OK, good. It looks like you answered your own question, Nicola. That's the sort of thing I tend to do as well--seek out multiple analyses from different seemingly credible, logical, science- and experience-backed sources before jumping to conclusions and panicking.

Another good practice is to remember to have fun!    And if you have fun and appear healthy, happy and confident, and respond to people's concerns with a smile, they may be less likely to worry over you or pressure you to do things their way.

[alphagruis]

I think there are 1 or 2 Instincto-types who might be above 50% re carbs, not sure.

As far as I know Iguana is above 50% and feels quite well over a period of more than 20 years....

I'm at a mean of approximately 30% carbs (sometimes less than 10% in winter and more than 50% in summer) over a period of 11 years now and I feel quite well too and got rid of my kidney stones in this way...

Just plain facts. Food for thought for those who claim prematurely that carbs are poison

[goodsamaritan]

As far as I know Iguana is above 50% and feels quite well over a period of more than 20 years....

I'm at a mean of approximately 30% carbs (sometimes less than 10% in winter and more than 50% in summer) over a period of 11 years now and I feel quite well too and got rid of my kidney stones in this way...

Just plain facts. Food for thought for those who claim prematurely that carbs are poison

Hi Alphagruis,

I'm interested to know how a typical day goes for you.  What and how much food. Pics too.

[alphagruis]

Hi Alphagruis,

I'm interested to know how a typical day goes for you.  What and how much food. Pics too.

Hi GS,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_salad

A typical winter day (10% carbs)

- Around noon corn salad or chicory (I grow them myself organically) with a bit garlic and virgin olive oil or the veggies as they are in nature plus one or two avocados (organic if possible) or a handfull of wallnuts or a few apples from my own organically grown trees.
- Around 8 PM fatty mutton shoulder plus a bit liver or 12 oysters plus one hour later very fatty boar ribs or beef.

 In summer more fruit around noon, sometimes only my own cherries or berries in June and less fatty meat in the evening.

I buy occasionally some tropical fruits such as watermelon, papayas or durian (delicious)