Author Topic: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products  (Read 44179 times)

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Satya

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2008, 10:12:11 am »
Aren't the hips and breasts where a girls omega 3's are stored? I also saw a story where curvy girls were claimed to be more intelligent...sexy and smart!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-493004/Sexy-AND-smart-Why-hourglass-figure-means-brains-beauty.html

Abdomin fat = Omega 6
Hip fat = omega 3

omega 3's are also stored in mens hips too. I've notice fat moved to my upper body more and away from my stomach and I think Craig mentioned something like this too. Ladies?

Yes, I have read about omega 3 FA being stored in women's hips.  The abdominal fat being omega 6, I have not heard about.  I have noticed less abdominal fat the last 9 months or so mostly raw all paleo, with increasing animal foods.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2008, 02:00:20 am »
Right, purpose tends to bring attraction, attraction does not always give purpose.  Maybe.  What do you think of that statement?

Do you mean that an animal could be randomly attracted to a purposeless feature? I'm sure it's possible but I think that would be around a lot less than purposeful features because there would be no evolutionary reason to keep it around and it would just randomly stay or randomly go.

Offline phatdave

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2008, 10:37:36 am »
i really dont want to step on toes here (and i must admit i only read the first page of posts), i must admit in the last month i have varied my diet hugely. From 'healthy standard' to 'raw' to 'raw vegan' to 'essenes' to 'paleo' to a combo! So i just want to say that i am very opened minded, maybe too open..

My problem is this.

When it comes to pros of eating veg/fruit, i have 2 main ideas.

1) It totally fits in with paleo ideology/genetics/everything. We as a species have been herbivores for alot longer than carnivores, and although being an omnivore is part of our short term evolution (as far as I can determine) in the same way as cooking 'some' things, i cannot see why people would remove something that would be considered a staple in our 'natural' diet. I must admit that although there are 2 sides to alot of these sorts of arguements, there simply isnt a leg to stand on saying fruit is either bad for you, or saying that one must eat minimal amounts. It defies everything. Science/history/ideology everything.

2) To suggest that certain fruits contain trace amounts of 'dangerous' chemicals is potentially true, but using that as a basis for NOT eating them is simply crazy! Everything contains all sorts of elements, meat included, that if eaten in extreme ammounts would be bad for you. To eliminate tomatoes for example, for this reason, renders me somewhat speachless. To be honest i am somewhat speechless, and its 2am, i think i shall sleep on this and collect my thoughts!

sorry for poor spelling/grammar

In addition I in no way want to upset ANYONE. I am not looking for a fight on ideology or such. I simply want slightly more sound evidence for why people on this site seem to think meat is all good (which it is) but fruit/veg are not staples. OR EVEN DANGEROUS! Maybe i am missing the point? Please let me know.

David

xylothrill

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2008, 11:48:04 am »
Welcome David,

This started off as a list of all harmful plant products. Then, someone asked to keep it to paleo plants. The result was a list of anti-nutrients in paleo plants. Paleo plants don't have enough carbs or anti-nutrients to really be harmful. They contain enough nutrients to counter the anti-nutrients. For instance, high carb foods cause the body to use up vitamin C but berries have more than enough to compensate while grains do not.

Paleo fruits and veggies do fit in with paleo everything but not exclusively. The Inuit and other peoples, especially during winter months practiced a nearly, and sometimes completely carnivorous diet. The choice is totally up to you. We do have an omnivorous section here.

I'm a carnivore but have tried paleo omnivorism. The paleo plants didn't effect me negatively the way Neolithic carbs did. Neither did I see any benefit so I remain a carnivore. I can only speak for myself. There are some here who are much more knowledgeable than I. Perhaps they'll chime in with the facts you seek.

Craig


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2008, 06:11:23 pm »
The basic problem with fruit is that, in Palaeo times, it was very difficult, in most parts of the world, to get hold of enough of them, as there was no agriculture at the time at all. Having been in genuinely wild areas, I know that much fruit only appears seasonally for a few weeks each time, and one has to compete against other wild animals. I've gone on  mushroom-collecting expeditions in the forests, and the amounts collected weren't comparable to the amounts I would have got via hunting wild animals. So, outside the tropics, minimal-fruit-consumption would have been the norm.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 08:31:11 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline phatdave

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2008, 08:24:56 pm »
hmm, interesting. This is a great rebuttel i think, thank you. You do not however address vegs, or other plant foods. Fruit would be considered a special treat, whereas brasicas, roots, and other plant foods would [potentially be found more in abundance. This of course would vary from place to place. Another thing to consider is that men were the hunters, women the gatherers. In paleo times anyway. And so during this era of critical social development, just because as men we would have undoubtably derived most of our share from meat, the female gathering portion would be just as important. In some parts of this world this ratio would be heavier on the hunter side (places where more meat), in other places more on the gatherer (more plant). I am just outlining again that I personally consider our 'natural' diet to be that of adaptable omnivores. 

But this is deviating slightly. I mearly mean to say, I appreciate your answer, only I ask 'what about plants'.

Thanks

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2008, 08:36:32 pm »
The trouble with plants is that many contain anti-nutrients. While these are sometimes in small amounts, many plants are very high in antinutrients, such as grains/tubers etc. Even in tropical areas, plants wouldn't have been cultivated in any amounts, so there would have been only a limited supply. While plant-food-consumption went straight up in the Neolithic, it was minimal in Palaeo times - for example, there's 1 study which showed that the Neanderthals ate a diet with only a little plant-matter:-


http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2000/06/12/Neanderthals000612.html
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Satya

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2008, 09:53:17 pm »

1) It totally fits in with paleo ideology/genetics/everything. We as a species have been herbivores for alot longer than carnivores, and although being an omnivore is part of our short term evolution (as far as I can determine) in the same way as cooking 'some' things, i cannot see why people would remove something that would be considered a staple in our 'natural' diet. I must admit that although there are 2 sides to alot of these sorts of arguements, there simply isnt a leg to stand on saying fruit is either bad for you, or saying that one must eat minimal amounts. It defies everything. Science/history/ideology everything.


As a species, Homo sapiens sapiens has only existed for around 200,000 or so years.  Thus the claim that we were herbivorous at all is simple untrue. 

I think the big problem of claiming that plant foods are problematic because so many contain antinutrients (and I really wish people who are going to make blanket statements about toxins and antinutrients would be more specific about what exactly in which foods they are talking about; for example oxidized cholesterol in cooked animal foods, etc) is that it ignores the fact that not one traditional hunter-gatherer society we have examined has ever completely shunned plant foods.  It is very simplistic for modern humans in environmentally controlled structures, eating store bought foods, to make all sorts of claims; but I would bet top dollar that not many of you at all have suffered through extended famines where you were desperate enough to eat whatever was edible.  Yet that is the overwhelming history of our species: feast and famine cycles.  This choice of 0% carbs is just that, a choice.

Satya

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2009, 06:24:32 am »
As a species, Homo sapiens sapiens has only existed for around 200,000 or so years.  Thus the claim that we were herbivorous at all is simple untrue. 

I think the big problem of claiming that plant foods are problematic because so many contain antinutrients (and I really wish people who are going to make blanket statements about toxins and antinutrients would be more specific about what exactly in which foods they are talking about; for example oxidized cholesterol in cooked animal foods, etc) is that it ignores the fact that not one traditional hunter-gatherer society we have examined has ever completely shunned plant foods.  It is very simplistic for modern humans in environmentally controlled structures, eating store bought foods, to make all sorts of claims; but I would bet top dollar that not many of you at all have suffered through extended famines where you were desperate enough to eat whatever was edible.  Yet that is the overwhelming history of our species: feast and famine cycles.  This choice of 0% carbs is just that, a choice.

Now, since I am bored, I thought I would argue with myself.  l)

But really, I am finding that a very low carb diet is a very good thing for me, which is between zero and 25 g/day.  (And this is with a winter workout schedule of weights, taekwondo training, and/or run/walk most days.)  I think hunter-gatherers went for long periods of time without any plant foods.  That time is generally called winter; but perhaps certain places in the tropics were carb havens year-round.  However, if we go back to Africa and look at the Maasai, who inhabit a tropical region of the globe, we see that they traditionally ate beef, drank blood and milk.  Now they eat maize too, thanks to the wonders of agriculture.  And really, all we know about are modern hunter-gatherers and their diets.  We have no idea about nomadic people of the past, except we only find animal food remnants, not caches of nuts or fruit pits.  It's just really difficult to look at all the conditions, but no doubt it was much cooler for most of our recent history.  You know, the Paleolithic era; with glaciation, tools, and the die out of all but the modern human species? 

Isn't this our most optimal diet?  Yeah, have some fruit and veg in season, eat some seaweed (not a plant), eat some herbs.  But we don't need these foods, do we?  Do we need to go shop for fresh produce which has been shipped via petroleum all over the globe?  Do we need to pay $5 a lb. for organic produce that gives us water, fiber, sugar, a bit of vitamin c and some plant toxins all for about 100 kcal?  I can get 100% grassfed beef for less money which will provide most everything I need and about 1300 kcal.  I am well off - the money is not an issue.  It's just this place I have come to which will undoubtedly evolve over time.  For example, I used to use both refrigerator crispers for plants - one for fruits, one for veg.  Now I share one for both, starting this week.  I don't have to buy all this leafy stuff that fills the frig and perishes within a week or so unless I ferment it.  It's FREEDOM!

And here endeth the sermon.

Offline van

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2009, 11:25:55 am »
  I wish I could remember exactly, but there is a very healthy group that live in the amazon area, and there staple is a type of yam or sweet potato.   Maybe someone has heard of them too?  But, somehow eat predominately cooked tubers,  they thrive. 

Satya

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2009, 02:22:58 am »
The most common potentially 'toxic' lectin containing food groups are:

~   grains, especially wheat and wheat germ but also quinoa, rice, buckwheat, oats, rye, barley, millet and corn.

~   legumes (all dried beans, including soy and peanuts),

~   dairy (perhaps more so when cows are feed grains instead of grass, a speculation based on research showing transference of lectins into breast milk and dairy and potentially more harmful in pasteurized, processed milk because of the reduction of SIgA, an immunoglobulin that binds dangerous lectins , Biol Neonate 1991;59(3):121-5 Davin JC et al The high lectin-binding capacity of human secretory IgA protects nonspecifically mucosae against environmental antigens.), NOTE: Only breast milk is good for babies.

~   nightshade (includes potato, tomato, eggplant and pepper).

This is from The Lectin Story.  I had completely forgotten that dairy contains toxic lectins.  I have mainly been thinking about nightshades.  Many (all?) are American natives.  I am starting to react to them on those rare occasions I consume things like tomato and eggplant.  Hot pepper I use in such tiny quantity that I may not notice.  I think ancestry may be the reason. 


Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2009, 02:33:27 am »
Bummer cause I love peppers. Since going raw though they don't agree with me very well. I used to be able to eat the spicyest stuff in the world and maybe have a tiny bit of cramps if I went crazy with it, like eating the spicyest stuff a Thai restaurant would make for me, but now if I do that I would be on the toilet for a day or more every few hours with these spicy bowel movements and have cramps the whole time as well.

Satya

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2009, 02:43:04 am »
... these spicy bowel movements and have cramps the whole time as well.

Round these parts, we call that "Chile Butt," not to be confused with butts from the country of Chile.  I guess I follow the New Mexico spelling of hot pepper. 

Other than that, sweet or hot peppers don't bother me too much, but I don't consume them much either.  With eggplant (aubergine for our UKers), my tongue gets all prickly and I get red flushes on the face and neck.  I bought one organic greenhouse tomato Friday, and got the tongue thingy from that.  Oh, and then a nasty cold sore to boot!  I think they mess up my immune system.  I'll stick with animal foods and seaweed for the most part.  But I would hate to lose the ability to eat these foods.  But then, maybe they are wreaking such havoc on me after years of consumption, that it's time to listen.  I wonder if lacto-fermentation would make a difference.

Offline Raw Rob

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2009, 03:13:57 am »
I believe the Keratosis Pilaris on my skin is an immune response. It has improved dramatically since I have gone virtually carb free, but I was still eating lots of eggs and tomatoes which may be why it is still a problem to a degree. I'm going to stop right now and see what happens. Man, I'm essentially down to avocados, a little citrus, meat, and fish.   

Offline wodgina

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2009, 06:28:13 am »


Yeah, eating just meat fat and water I started to lose my ability to handle plant foods or my body chose to go into fight mode immediatley and remove these plant toxins. Usual symtoms  involve red face and itchyness. I was suprised that things like banana would do it but alas I already knew deep down that 100% meat/fat water was the way and I've been delaying the move..

On raw paleo with plant food I still had keratosis on the back of my arms, just meat fat water it's gone.
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Offline Raw Rob

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2009, 11:00:49 am »
So Wodgina,

You only eat meat (and fat from meat) and water? I ask because I was going to continue to eat avocados. Maybe I will eat the rest of the ones I have and then go with just meat, fish, and water. Do you eat cooked meat ever? 

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: List of ALL Harmful Plant Products
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2009, 04:41:30 am »
Round these parts, we call that "Chile Butt," not to be confused with butts from the country of Chile.  I guess I follow the New Mexico spelling of hot pepper. 

Other than that, sweet or hot peppers don't bother me too much, but I don't consume them much either.  With eggplant (aubergine for our UKers), my tongue gets all prickly and I get red flushes on the face and neck.  I bought one organic greenhouse tomato Friday, and got the tongue thingy from that.  Oh, and then a nasty cold sore to boot!  I think they mess up my immune system.  I'll stick with animal foods and seaweed for the most part.  But I would hate to lose the ability to eat these foods.  But then, maybe they are wreaking such havoc on me after years of consumption, that it's time to listen.  I wonder if lacto-fermentation would make a difference.

It's hard to give up the pleasure of eating your favorite foods. Sometimes I think "why am I bothering with all this restriction?" like it's not really living. But if I go and eat junk I feel so crappy, and THAT'S not really living either! If I eat a large heavy carb meal I feel bloated for a long time. I can't work out or even be comfortable for at least half a day, sometimes more. And I don't want to eat anything else either, not even RAF's. And when I eat too much spicy it's bad too. One time I made some tom yum goong soup and used dried habanero flakes instead of fresh Thai chilis and it was so f-ing spicy my friends couldn't eat it, so I ate all of theirs and mine. I loved it, it burned my mouth but for some reason I like that, but omg did it do a number on my system. For about 48 hours I was crampy and with the chili butt.

 

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