What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?

[Paleo Donk]

I'm looking to find a source of carbohydrate from the plant kingdom. I would like them to approximate the nutritional values found from paleolithic era plants. I can't seem to find what exactly they would be.

Berries seem like the obvious choice - black,blue,rasp,cran

What about roots, leaves, grasses, nuts, vegetables, fruit?

All the fruit and veggies in the markets today seem very highly modified from their original form and so I can't make an argument for eating them. Perhaps you guys can help me out.

[TylerDurden]

I don't think it matters. Even specially bred fruits dsigned for a high sugar-content are not harmful in any way.

[miles]

How come fruit/sugar causes me inflammation(muscular & skin) then?(however only really eaten fruit when eating cooked meat, and not raw)

btw, Tyler. Eating cooked meat I feel an irresistible(as if essential) urge to eat a substantial amount of fruit along with it... An urge I don't get with raw meat. After eating the fruit I'll get inflammation in the form of pain in the skin(acne), pain in the muscles, and the sort of muscle inflammation often described as 'cramp', or 'spasm'.

[TylerDurden]

How come fruit/sugar causes me inflammation(muscular & skin) then?(however only really eaten fruit when eating cooked meat, and not raw)

btw, Tyler. Eating cooked meat I feel an irresistible(as if essential) urge to eat a substantial amount of fruit along with it... An urge I don't get with raw meat. After eating the fruit I'll get inflammation in the form of pain in the skin(acne), pain in the muscles, and the sort of muscle inflammation often described as 'cramp', or 'spasm'.

  Well, I guess there are exceptions to every rule. But it seems to me that this thread is irrelevant to you as you seem to have a very rare food-intolerance towards fruit of all kinds.

[van]

I am wondering if you are eating the fruit right after eating meat?

[goodsamaritan]

How come fruit/sugar causes me inflammation(muscular & skin) then?(however only really eaten fruit when eating cooked meat, and not raw)

btw, Tyler. Eating cooked meat I feel an irresistible(as if essential) urge to eat a substantial amount of fruit along with it... An urge I don't get with raw meat. After eating the fruit I'll get inflammation in the form of pain in the skin(acne), pain in the muscles, and the sort of muscle inflammation often described as 'cramp', or 'spasm'.

When I eat cooked meat I get the same urge you do to eat fruits as I get really thirsty after cooked meat.

What fruits are you eating? Are they organic?  Are they local?  I think it matters that fruit is organic.

When I did my fruitarian for 2 months and wai diet for 3 months I had a good hard look at the choices of fruits and weeded out the bad ones.

There are fruit grown and sold that are organic by default in our country and those are the good ones.  I just had to do trial and error.

I know these fruits are harmful to me:

- multinational branded pineapples
- small solo papayas
- multinational branded bananas
- yellow carabao mangoes that are ripened with gunpowder ingredient

These are the most highly commercialized philippine fruits.

We just cant say "fruits are harmful", we should be specific as to which fruits.

Same with meat, commercially farmed fish and poultry seem to be bad meat.

The other factor to eating cooked meats is condiments, condiments, condiments.

When I did my cooked pork meat 1 month experiment I did it with no condiments.

[William]

I'm looking to find a source of carbohydrate from the plant kingdom. I would like them to approximate the nutritional values found from paleolithic era plants. I can't seem to find what exactly they would be.

wodgina tried actually going into a wild place in Australia, and eating the edible plants he found. Reported here.
IIRC the experiment was a success for those who don't believe that we are made to eat plants.

So it looks like there weren't any paleocarbs, or, if there were, they are extinct.
Carb addicts must suffer the sugar bombs of the neolithic.

[carnivore]

When I eat cooked meat I get the same urge you do to eat fruits as I get really thirsty after cooked meat.

What fruits are you eating? Are they organic?  Are they local?  I think it matters that fruit is organic.

When I did my fruitarian for 2 months and wai diet for 3 months I had a good hard look at the choices of fruits and weeded out the bad ones.

There are fruit grown and sold that are organic by default in our country and those are the good ones.  I just had to do trial and error.

I know these fruits are harmful to me:

- multinational branded pineapples
- small solo papayas
- multinational branded bananas
- yellow carabao mangoes that are ripened with gunpowder ingredient

These are the most highly commercialized philippine fruits.

We just cant say "fruits are harmful", we should be specific as to which fruits.

Same with meat, commercially farmed fish and poultry seem to be bad meat.

The other factor to eating cooked meats is condiments, condiments, condiments.

When I did my cooked pork meat 1 month experiment I did it with no condiments.

What amount of fruits do you eat daily, and which fruits ?

[goodsamaritan]

This February 2010 the good fruit in season are:

- avocados (lagkitan variety, no veins)
- watermelon (the big solid dark green ones or striped green ones at 8+ kilos each)
- melons
- organic papayas (from far away Palawan, via my wife's connections to a foundation that grows them organically to teach their students, fertilized with a sack full of organic carabao sh*t )
- "indian" mangoes (wild stuff, grows in people's back yards)
- star apple / kayomito (wild stuff, grows in people's back yards)
- young coconuts always in season

What works for me.

Breakfast is either raw duck eggs if we got them or avocado + some papaya (1 to 2 slices each).  I should take a picture.

When I get to the office I try to remind myself to drink at around 10am and get a break with young coconut with the meat.

At 12nn is lunch with raw beef or raw fish.

afternoon snack... usually skipped in the office... but at home, the kids would want a hydrating fruit (we live in a hot tropical climate) like watermelon or melon or lately indian mangoes.

Dinner is raw beef or raw fish.  Unless I ate too much at lunch and decide to skip it.

I'm a computer nerd and not a sports or gym jock.  Exercise I get is swimming and running around with the kids on weekends and roughing up my 2 little boys.  Sex is good too sometimes.

---

* add native guavas to the fruit list, these are the small guavas that grow in people's yards and used for cooking, found in vegetable sections, but locals know it has the highest vitamin c as it is good for the SAD eaters who have colds and coughs.  Guavas are snacks. 

[roony]

How come fruit/sugar causes me inflammation(muscular & skin) then?(however only really eaten fruit when eating cooked meat, and not raw)

btw, Tyler. Eating cooked meat I feel an irresistible(as if essential) urge to eat a substantial amount of fruit along with it... An urge I don't get with raw meat. After eating the fruit I'll get inflammation in the form of pain in the skin(acne), pain in the muscles, and the sort of muscle inflammation often described as 'cramp', or 'spasm'.

My cramps vanished after adding seafood, in the form of raw prawns or fish eggs & snacking on them through out the day, in between meals

Morning cramps & spasms i've had for about 10 years, vanished overnight after a couple of days of snacking on seafoods, in this case small tiger prawns none stop for a day or two

[Paleo Donk]

wodgina tried actually going into a wild place in Australia, and eating the edible plants he found. Reported here.
IIRC the experiment was a success for those who don't believe that we are made to eat plants.

So it looks like there weren't any paleocarbs, or, if there were, they are extinct.
Carb addicts must suffer the sugar bombs of the neolithic.

I'd really appreciate it if you didn't make such blanket statements that no one here agrees with without any evidence. You seem to be the only person who believes there weren'tany paleo carbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushfood

Look there for information on the enormous variety of native plants to Australia. At the end of the article it lists about 100 or so fruits, veggies, seeds and nuts that are native to Australia. Theres even 20 that are found in the arid outback.

[Paleo Donk]

I don't think it matters. Even specially bred fruits dsigned for a high sugar-content are not harmful in any way.

I don't see how you can say this without saying more. A couple low-carb bloggers have commented on the fact that there is no "stop" for fructose. I notice this myself and can eat buckets of grapes until I feel sick and then still want more. This is actually true for just about every fruit, its very hard for me to stop eating if there are more around. Neolithic fruits have much higher fructose concentration I believe.

So, since there hasn't really been any actual answers - For those that eat vegetation, what exactly are you eating?

[TylerDurden]

My point was that fruits, even Neolithic fruits, are very low in fructose by comparison to corn-syrup, plus they are accompanied by other substances such as antioxidants/vitamins etc., so it's not an issue on a rawpalaeodiet, besides the fructose in fruits is UNrefined natural fructose. So unless one is eating 100% fruitarian, there's no danger whatsoever. It's no coincidence that diets high in raw veg/fruit and low in cooked animal foods are healthier than other SAD-diets out there.

[Paleo Donk]

You are sounding extraordianarily biased and dogmatic right now. The point is whether or not what modern fruits fructose/other nutrient-level are relatively similar to that of paleolithic fruit, not compared to corn-syrup. I haven't seen a discussion here on it

How about other roots, leaves and veggies? We surely ate some of these. There must be some kind of neolithic equivalent.

[William]

I'd really appreciate it if you didn't make such blanket statements that no one here agrees with without any evidence. You seem to be the only person who believes there weren'tany paleo carbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushfood

Look there for information on the enormous variety of native plants to Australia. At the end of the article it lists about 100 or so fruits, veggies, seeds and nuts that are native to Australia. Theres even 20 that are found in the arid outback.

Try eating them.

[/quote] The point is whether or not what modern fruits fructose/other nutrient-level are relatively similar to that of paleolithic fruit, not compared to corn-syrup.
How about other roots, leaves and veggies? We surely ate some of these.

Why? In a planet thick with delicious fat meat, why eat nasty veggies and sour fruit?

[TylerDurden]

You are sounding extraordianarily biased and dogmatic right now. The point is whether or not what modern fruits fructose/other nutrient-level are relatively similar to that of paleolithic fruit, not compared to corn-syrup. I haven't seen a discussion here on it

How about other roots, leaves and veggies? We surely ate some of these. There must be some kind of neolithic equivalent.

There's certainly evidence that we ate lots of herbs in palaeo times. I referred to a previous study showing Neanderthals practised herbal medicine a while back. The search function of this forum is so shoddy, though, that no one's likely tio find it.

As regards allegations of bias, I'm merely stating the standard view, that fructose is only viewed as harmful if in large doses. Anti-carb fanatics tend to focus on conr-syrup when exclaiming about the dangers of fructose and that's not relevant to fruit which has much lower levels of fructose in the first place, and unrefined fructose at that.

[Nicola]

My point was that fruits, even Neolithic fruits, are very low in fructose by comparison to corn-syrup, plus they are accompanied by other substances such as antioxidants/vitamins etc., so it's not an issue on a rawpalaeodiet, besides the fructose in fruits is UNrefined natural fructose. So unless one is eating 100% fruitarian, there's no danger whatsoever. It's no coincidence that diets high in raw veg/fruit and low in cooked animal foods are healthier than other SAD-diets out there.

Well I would believe that the amount of fruit is an issue - just because it's raw does not mean it's healthy; lots of blogs take about the fructose in fruit with out the thought of raw vs. cooked (or corn-syrup!)

Eating fruit your triglyceridescount shoots up...

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/01/14/fructose-part-one.aspx

I know it's "only" Mercola but he is just one of the many.

Nicola

[Paleo Donk]

I just don't get how its just fine to eat a tremendous variety of fruits that vary drastically from their original evolved state in places on earth where they are nowhere to be found. There is no good argument so far, from a paleolithic pont of view, that makes me want to consume fruit or any vegetation.

But if its true that few/none of the people here that eat fruit have problems with them, and there is no evidence from science that states so then I would be fine with experimentation.

I do want to experiment eating fruit, lots of it actually, but also all other vegetation as well.

Maybe we can start another thread where we can ask what vegetation seems to be most harmful/beneficial. Some here have reported problems with nightshades, others with greens and others with nuts.

I suppose I'm looking for a more definitive list of vegetation that is recommended for raw paleo. Clearly raw grains are out but what is in, acai berry? pompegranite? Romaine  lettuce?Portabella mushrooms? my all time favorite mango???

[carnivore]

Well I would believe that the amount of fruit is an issue - just because it's raw does not mean it's healthy; lots of blogs take about the fructose in fruit with out the thought of raw vs. cooked (or corn-syrup!)

Eating fruit your triglyceridescount shoots up...

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/01/14/fructose-part-one.aspx

I know it's "only" Mercola but he is just one of the many.

Nicola

The only mention of fruit in your link is : "this doesn't mean that one should avoid fruit, however. Eating small amounts of whole fruit will NOT provide tremendous amounts of fructose, and should not be a problem for most people, unless diabetes or obesity is an issue".
I would like to see studies using fruits as a source of fructose instead of artificial concentrated source like HFCS !

[yon yonson]

here's a list of fruits/veggies and the quantities that i eat occaissionally without issue:

whole cucumber
whole tomato
1 small apple
whole avocado
up to 10 berries (blue, rasp)
half clove garlic
slice of onion
handful of seaweed
half an orange
slice of grapefruit
a few cubes of pineapple

i actually think cucumber, avocado, and tomato feel the best after eating. seaweed is actually a really nice snack too when it's dried. really fun to chew up and it tastes good. for what it's worth, apples, oranges, and pineapples sit better with me than berries.

[roony]

No such thing as "unrefined fructose" ... Once the cell walls surrounding the "SUGAR" in a fruit is destroyed, you get the same insulin response as any other sugar. The only difference with fruit are the glycaemic lowering nutrients contained within the fruit.


"unrefined fructose" is simply unscientific, sugar regardless of how a fruit mitigates the glycaemic load, eventually wrecks your blood sugar levels, causing everything from mood swings, unstable energy swings, & depression & hyper mania.



Anything which interferes with your blood sugar levels, even if consumed constantly for about a week, you're in danger of developing stuff like insulin resistance, the beginning of diabetes.


Concentrated fruits are ok, however, such as kumquats, berries, & green leaf veg.


If you want to consume fruit & veg, you'll have to research the glycaemic levels, & anti-nutrients, even then you cant digest a large portion of most fruits & veg, because of the large amounts of cellulose & the massive inability of the human body, to digest & use the nutrients in plants & vegetation, as well as herbivores can.

[Paleo Donk]

Thanks yy, that was exactly what I was looking for.

What are concentrated fruits? How are berries and green leaf veggies similar in this respect?

I didn't think many fruit had any anti-nutrients. The one antinutrient I know found in spinach is oxalic acid. I assume there are much more in veggies , nuts and grasses than in fruit.

Just found a good article on antinutrients found in plant foods - http://paleolithicdiet.wordpress.com/category/antinutrients/

Even berries have tannins that are antinutrients but apparently they have anti-cancer properties
http://www.cas.muohio.edu/chm/faculty/hagerman.htm http://www.spartafitness.com/anti-nutrients.pdf

[William]

I suppose I'm looking for a more definitive list of vegetation that is recommended for raw paleo. Clearly raw grains are out but what is in?

We don't know.
What you would have to look for is something that is high in minerals and low in antinutrients including fructose - note the informed opinion here:http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/2/5/180-180-360.html
" PaNu, Wholehealthsource and Peter at Hyperlipid all target fructose and linoleic acid as the main causes of metabolic disturbance in the western diet. Even Gary Taubes in his recent lectures has said "it may indeed all be fructose". None of us, read carefully, claims that "carbohydrates = disease"."

Raw seaweed seems right, maybe chokecherries, but we don't know the antinutrient content, and nobody thinks that they are food. The look like herbal  medicine, and why do medicine unless you are sick?

[roony]

We don't know.
What you would have to look for is something that is high in minerals and low in antinutrients including fructose - note the informed opinion here:http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/2/5/180-180-360.html
" PaNu, Wholehealthsource and Peter at Hyperlipid all target fructose and linoleic acid as the main causes of metabolic disturbance in the western diet. Even Gary Taubes in his recent lectures has said "it may indeed all be fructose". None of us, read carefully, claims that "carbohydrates = disease"."

Raw seaweed seems right, maybe chokecherries, but we don't know the antinutrient content, and nobody thinks that they are food. The look like herbal  medicine, and why do medicine unless you are sick?

Modern processed carbohydrates always = disease

Low glycaemic wild carbohydrates ie roots, starches = eventually to disease

Medium glycaemic wild fruit = disease


Berries & small fruits like kumquats, are concentrated fruits, with low antinutrients & high naturally occurring agents in the plant to counter the antinutrients


Most seaweeds, are also bad for you, a few like algae, chlorella & spirulina even dried, are beneficial, but they do have moderate carbs & can be negative in the long term

They also thin your blood

[Paleo Donk]

Roony, what kind of vegetation do you eat throughout the year? You've said in the past you are omnivore.

Also, if its possible that its all about fructose, then you could make an argument that eating a bit of white rice would be one of the best sources of carbs since its stripped of most all its antinutrients and nutrients.