What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?

[roony]

Roony, what kind of vegetation do you eat throughout the year? You've said in the past you are omnivore.

Also, if its possible that its all about fructose, then you could make an argument that eating a bit of white rice would be one of the best sources of carbs since its stripped of most all its antinutrients and nutrients.

It's not simply about fructose, its really about how you function in relation to your insulin & blood sugar levels, all carbs are SUGARS, bread grain, rice, potatoes, all function identical to sugar, affecting everything from renal, to adrenal glands, to arterial & vascolur damage,

sugar is unfortunately a very pervasive & endemic substance, regardless of its form or origin


Also ALL plants create carbohydrates using photosynthesis, its one its primary functions



I eat fruits very rarely now, i've replaced my fruit consumption with raw cream mixed with bee pollen & propolis & a drop of royal jelly

I'll be replacing the raw cream with kefir soon


I'm aware of the issues with dairy, i'd had to stop drinking raw dairy because it brought on very mild symptoms similar to chronic fatigue, & the excess mucus formation, in my clients too, makes it a pain to ingest

Cream is similar, to raw dairy, but i can tolerate that far better then raw milk, it also kills sugar & junk food cravings thanks to its high fat & lactose content, which is the main reason i eat cream


I've stopped craving for cooked foods & sugar, thanks to the cream & frozen bee pollen, the key is to ingest it in the morning & everytime you get a craving feeling



I also dont eat any vegetables now, havent eaten them for a long time lol, about a year now


I do however recommend, salads & a minor amount of fruit, about 2 apples a week, for beginners, & raw milk & dairy


As all salads & fruit, are great detoxants & help normalise a person from a cooked diet, in the short term


For chronic patients, i go for zero carb, high fat, with a very high percentage of bone marrow, suet, stomach lining & organs & sweet breads, all very palatable & tasty with the right sauces

[Paleo Donk]

So after denouncing zero carb a few weeks back you now recommend it to your patients? When did you start your practice and what do you do?

All carbs are not simply sugar.

Fructose does not raise insulin and there seems to be no off switch for it.

[roony]

So after denouncing zero carb a few weeks back you now recommend it to your patients? When did you start your practice and what do you do?

All carbs are not simply sugar.

Fructose does not raise insulin and there seems to be no off switch for it.

Since when have i ever denounced zero carb?



Believe what you want ... ?

Go ahead join the fruitarians etc., they must be doing something right, right?


All carbs are sugar's, regards to how your body processes them


If you want to nitpick over the finer points of carbs, be my guest, a low glycaemic index doesnt make a carb any healthier

[TylerDurden]

No such thing as "unrefined fructose" ... Once the cell walls surrounding the "SUGAR" in a fruit is destroyed, you get the same insulin response as any other sugar. The only difference with fruit are the glycaemic lowering nutrients contained within the fruit.


"unrefined fructose" is simply unscientific, sugar regardless of how a fruit mitigates the glycaemic load, eventually wrecks your blood sugar levels, causing everything from mood swings, unstable energy swings, & depression & hyper mania.



Anything which interferes with your blood sugar levels, even if consumed constantly for about a week, you're in danger of developing stuff like insulin resistance, the beginning of diabetes.


Concentrated fruits are ok, however, such as kumquats, berries, & green leaf veg.


If you want to consume fruit & veg, you'll have to research the glycaemic levels, & anti-nutrients, even then you cant digest a large portion of most fruits & veg, because of the large amounts of cellulose & the massive inability of the human body, to digest & use the nutrients in plants & vegetation, as well as herbivores can.

  To equate the unrefined fructose in fruit to the refined fructose in corn-syrup is totally absurd. Not only does fruit contain far too little fructose to have any discernible effect but comes with antioxidants etc. which negate any possible negative effects, however minor.

[Hannibal]

Not only does fruit contain far too little fructose to have any discernible effect but comes with antioxidants etc. which negate any possible negative effects, however minor.

Wild fruits, such as berries, have got glucose/fructose ratio 1:1, which is very good for human health. The same is with a true organic honey/ honeycomb.

[roony]

 To equate the unrefined fructose in fruit to the refined fructose in corn-syrup is totally absurd. Not only does fruit contain far too little fructose to have any discernible effect but comes with antioxidants etc. which negate any possible negative effects, however minor.

Fructose isnt the only culprit in fruitarianism & vegan's, ALL photosynthesis creates carbohydrates

If fructose has no discernable effect, then why does breaking the cell walls surrounding the sugars in a fruit, when juicing fruits, cause the same insulin response as any other sugar & carb?


IF fruit has so little fructose content, then why is it's BRIX content, the measurement of sugar, as much as 2-5+ times the amount of regular vegetables high in fructose such as carrots?



But trying to put the blame on fructose & carbohydrates, is merely simple symantics

The main reason plants & fruits are unsuitable is the large amount of undigestible matter, ie cellulose & undigestible proteins & nutrients

The sugars & carb's simply compound the problem

[cherimoya_kid]

I know these fruits are harmful to me:


- small solo papayas

Why do you think those are bad for you? 

[Paleo Donk]

Fructose does not raise insulin levels, or nowhere near the level that pure glucose does. This is one of the reasons why glycemic index can be misleading and can be misinterpreted. Gary Taubes explains this thoroughly in GCBC and so fructose cannot be treated just as another sugar.

I thought you denounced zero-carb here but you were simply saying you believed a heavy muscle meat diet was not good. I remembered incorrectly and thought you were implying you thought it was necessary to consume vegetation.

oh my bad, i thought raw zero carb was another type of raw meat diet, i'll have to go look it up lol

erm no, the zerocarb diet is too mono, you need a large amount of organs & fats to build your vascolur system, eating a limited range of fatty muscle meats is actually bad for your health

Also he doesnt include high meats, so no zerocarb is no where as good as a regular RP diet

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/health/which-rawdiet-is-most-oxygenating-and-where's-the-proof/msg25605/#msg25605

Also, you ignored for the second time my question on what you do and how long you have been at your current practice.

I do like your idea of raw honey and kefir and hopefully try something like that in time.

[goodsamaritan]

I don't see how you can say this without saying more. A couple low-carb bloggers have commented on the fact that there is no "stop" for fructose. I notice this myself and can eat buckets of grapes until I feel sick and then still want more. This is actually true for just about every fruit, its very hard for me to stop eating if there are more around. Neolithic fruits have much higher fructose concentration I believe.

So, since there hasn't really been any actual answers - For those that eat vegetation, what exactly are you eating?

I have a different experience.  I have a STOP for sweet fruits.  And if it is too sweet it is immediate. 

Also the heavily chemicalized fruits have an awful chemical taste that rpd people and provincial folk would instantly recognize and throw away the fruit.

Fruits are supposed to be delightful and unique in taste, not mere sources of sweetening.

[goodsamaritan]

I know these fruits are harmful to me:
- small solo papayas

Why do you think those are bad for you? 

Small solo papayas belong to the big multinational corporate products.  Heavily chemicalized, industrialized processes and probably genetic manipulation.  Papayas are not supposed to be as small as solo papayas.  In a papaya tree these small size fruit are the duds.  In the market or more likely supermarket selling these solo papayas you'll see lots and lots of these small duds they try to pass out as "normal".

But when I was young, there were zero solo papayas in the markets.  These solo papayas were bred for the new smaller household units with 1 or 2 people... thus solo.

Papayas are supposed to be FAMILY PAPAYAS.  They are supposed to feed 4 to 6 people or more each.

Just like watermelons that are supposed to be at least 7 kilos in weight or heavier... any less than that means they marketers are merely targetting customers who cannot afford to buy the REAL THING.

Plus solo papayas taste bad compared to the REAL papayas.

It's those damn supermarket economics that make fruit look bad.  My father in law just went to the supermarket in our new artificial city in fort bonifacio and bought the worst commercial fruits.  At breakfast yesterday the family was so disappointed we saw "perfect" cavendish bananas... yuck.  Then he had a normal sized papaya but it tasted bland... had a pale orange color in the meat... my eldest son took 1 bite and said blahh.... left it.

The only good fruit my father in law got in the supermarket were the star apples / kayomitos because that is not farmed.  They are wild fruit that grow in the mountains and back yards or empty lots.

[roony]

Fructose does not raise insulin levels, or nowhere near the level that pure glucose does. This is one of the reasons why glycemic index can be misleading and can be misinterpreted. Gary Taubes explains this thoroughly in GCBC and so fructose cannot be treated just as another sugar.

I thought you denounced zero-carb here but you were simply saying you believed a heavy muscle meat diet was not good. I remembered incorrectly and thought you were implying you thought it was necessary to consume vegetation.http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/health/which-rawdiet-is-most-oxygenating-and-where's-the-proof/msg25605/#msg25605

Also, you ignored for the second time my question on what you do and how long you have been at your current practice.

I do like your idea of raw honey and kefir and hopefully try something like that in time.

Try juicing an apple, orange etc., for the length of a week or so & measure your insulin levels

Do the same for honey

Prolonged large amounts of fruits & honey, will alter your insulin levels drastically


The research you're referring are tested in limited conditions, the conclusions they come to are theoretical & will never be as effective as the research suggests, due to the many extenuating variables in reality


On paper & in theory, it might work, as people like gary taubes point out, but there are EXTENUATING factors, mainly environmental factors, which drastically diminish the protective effects of plants grown in DEVELOPED countries & modern farmed honeycombs


Also you have to take into account, most people's immune systems are severely compromised from eating cooked foods, AGE's & carcinogens, can last upto over 40 years in human cells, so if you've been eating cooked foods upto the age of 20+, you'll need to hit 60 or 70 years of age, before your immune system can process products like honey, without the negative effects, most paleo dieters seem to be seeing today


In theory, yes fruits & honey should be good for you, but because of our poor environment & compromised immune systems, in reality the results will vary & the effects can be negative



I havent been able to test wild fruit & veg grown in optimal pristine conditions, ie a tropical jungle like the amazon, if you live there go nuts ...


Also i never suggested taking raw honey with kefir, as raw honey is unsustainable re. health


As for your question, consider it ignored for a 3rd time, as this is a public forum, but i can state, i've been a RP for about 3-4 years & i've researched the RP diet & health for 7+ years now

Feel free to pm if you have any personal questions

[goodsamaritan]

Try juicing an apple, orange etc., for the length of a week or so & measure your insulin levels

Do the same for honey

Prolonged large amounts of fruits & honey, will alter your insulin levels drastically

I dont see why bother with this.  Juicing fruits is a bad idea.  It will be too sweet. obviously.

I do diluted orange juice fasting... never juice feasting.

[PaleoPhil]

...I do want to experiment eating fruit, lots of it actually, but also all other vegetation as well.

Maybe we can start another thread where we can ask what vegetation seems to be most harmful/beneficial. Some here have reported problems with nightshades, others with greens and others with nuts.

I suppose I'm looking for a more definitive list of vegetation that is recommended for raw paleo. Clearly raw grains are out but what is in, acai berry? pompegranite? Romaine  lettuce?Portabella mushrooms? my all time favorite mango???

Good question. I've been considering what fruits/veg I should experiment with this spring/summer. I'm thinking that the optimal fruits would have most of these elements:

> fresh
> local
> picked ripe
> wild or of older, less-modified varieties (closest to their wild origins and edible in their original wild forms)
> free of pesticides and synthetic fertilizers (in other words, either untainted wild or organic)
> preferably something like them would have been eaten during the Paleolithic era (not necessarily the species of fruit itself, but related Old World fruits)
> they shouldn't have known seriously negative effects on human metabolic or immune system function and low in lectins and other antinutrients
> relatively low to moderate in fructose
> I like the taste

Local wild and organic berries and organic red grapes are the fruits I can think of so far that seem to meet many of these elements including taste. I'm not saying they are necessarily healthy, but they seem to be the best candidates for my fruit-reintroduction experiment. Doubtless I'll also grab fruits off trees I come across in my neighborhood and at my sister's house and parents' summer cottage (apples, pears and crabapples), for the fun of it, not for particular health reasons.

For veg I was thinking of trying organic spring greens again, as they didn't seem to cause me problems in the past (other than I did better when I eliminated them, but that could have been because I was improving irrespective of them) and they seem relatively Paleo and unlike most veg I like the taste a little. One problem with them is that they tend to rot before I can finish them and I don't like them enough to eat big quantities at one sitting. Greens would be more workable for me if I was living with someone else.

With those problems with fresh greens and having seen videos and stuff on the Inuit it occurred to me that I could try some dried kelp again. I don't like the taste much, but it wouldn't spoil (though it does lose nutrients when exposed to air) and I think it's richer in iodine. However, it is very expensive by weight. I wonder how it works out based on cost per bioavailable nutrients?

[roony]

I dont see why bother with this.  Juicing fruits is a bad idea.  It will be too sweet. obviously.

I do diluted orange juice fasting... never juice feasting.

I wasnt suggesting anyone try this, i was simply making a point ...

[cherimoya_kid]

For veg I was thinking of trying organic spring greens again, as they didn't seem to cause me problems in the past (other than I did better when I eliminated them, but that could have been because I was improving irrespective of them) and they seem relatively Paleo and unlike most veg I like the taste a little. One problem with them is that they tend to rot before I can finish them and I don't like them enough to eat big quantities at one sitting.

You can't just gather wild greens? 

[PaleoPhil]

Good idea. What wild greens should I gather and where should I get them (I would think around my parents' lawn might be too toxic with lawn treatments and all)?

[jessica]

go to the library and pick up a book about edible and medicinal plants in your region
here in colorado there are a wealth of greens-amaranth, lambsquarter, purslane, some weird moutain spinach i think is called kettlewart?, cheese wheel, these grow every where, alleys, between sidewalk pavers, in fields...its easy to make a mental map of where they are growing, if there is traffic nearby(pollution) if its a public park or intentionally landscape(perhaps fertilized/pesticided) where the best crops grow, once you know its easy to pick enough and leave enough....
get a book though i am sure you will be surprised at how many plants are edible and how easy identification can be once you are aware of whats around you
you  may also want to try and grow your own leafy greens, they are the easiest to grow, can be grown completely indoors or started outdoors early as they are partial to cooler temps and shade.....

[PaleoPhil]

I think my mother has a book like that, and I just remembered that she grows some greens too. I think last year it was swiss chard.

[cherimoya_kid]

I think my mother has a book like that, and I just remembered that she grows some greens too. I think last year it was swiss chard.

You may want to just contact your local wild food club.  They can suggest the best book, and may even have local walking workshops, where they actually take you on a foraging trip outside.

[William]

What wild greens should I gather and where should I get them ?

Ignore not the bumptious dandelion, imported from Europe as herbal medicine - leaves contain lots of good minerals, roots can be dried and used for tea. Bitterest tea ever, so it must be really good for something, eh?

Chamomile grows between cracks in  sidewalks, and in my gravel driveway. Pleasant tea.

[carnivore]

It is my understanding that vegetables have more a medicinal value than a nourishing value. You can't really feed yourself with wild plants, unless you cook (or juice) them. Many people can't digest raw vegetables.
Fruit is different because they are intended to be eaten, they don't contain toxins and antinutrients, and one can feed on wild fruits like berries...The sugar in fruits is glucose and fructose and, as long as they are not overeaten, does not elevate insulin in excess, contrary to starchy grain or tubers.

[TylerDurden]

I dont see why bother with this.  Juicing fruits is a bad idea.  It will be too sweet. obviously.

I do diluted orange juice fasting... never juice feasting.

 Precisely, it's absurd to equate eating raw solid fruits with drinking fruit-juice. I know plenty of people who eat veggie-juice in large amounts each day - not one of them would be able to eat that same amount in the form of solid veg. In short, the only possible danger might be if one is on a 100% fruitarian diet, given the common cravings one gets on such diets - but on a raw, omnivorous diet, it's just ridiculous to claim that raw solid fruits are a problem re fructose- it's commonly accepted within the scientific community that fructose in fruits is too low to be an issue.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the tips gang. I found this http://www.squidoo.com/wild-edible-foods and it reminded me that I did try eating young raw fiddleheads last spring. Some restaurants even serve them here. I didn't care for the taste at all. I tried steaming them to see if that would help and still didn't care for them. I consider them nothing more than starvation food. On the other hand, Traditional Medicinal's organic roasted dandelion root tea is the best tasting tea I've ever tried, though not raw, of course.

The point about antinutrients in non-fruit plants is a good one (though I believe Tyler doesn't agree with it). The only reasons I can see to consider eating veg other than social or convenience reasons is as providing a safety margin in a VLC/carnivore diet, so as to perhaps be less prone to kidney stones, iodine deficiency, constipation and whatever other risks there might be. I'm not convinced it's really necessary, but I had planned on returning to trying some plant foods again as part of my overall experiment.

...but on a raw, omnivorous diet, it's just ridiculous to claim that raw solid fruits are a problem re fructose.

Whether its fructose or something else, I do get problems like acne, dry skin, scum on my teeth, poor sleep, etc. when I eat a sufficient amount of fruit that most people would consider very modest.

[carnivore]

Whether its fructose or something else, I do get problems like acne, dry skin, scum on my teeth, poor sleep, etc. when I eat a sufficient amount of fruit that most people would consider very modest.

What amount of fruit did you eat, and what was your diet at this time when you got these problems?
Wai Diet is very efficient to cure skin troubles (among others) and is based on fruits and fat. It is a high carbs/fat and low protein diet.

[PaleoPhil]

What amount of fruit did you eat, and what was your diet at this time when you got these problems?
Wai Diet is very efficient to cure skin troubles (among others) and is based on fruits and fat. It is a high carbs/fat and low protein diet.

A single small-bowl-size amount of whole fruit was sufficient to give me acne breakout, dry skin, dental scum, morning breath, etc. the next day. That may be hard to believe for those who are less sensitive to carbs than me, but it was my experience. I tried a fruit-oriented diet at SuperInfinity's suggestion and found it to be very harmful to me. I've read other people's similar experiences with Wai and various frugivorous-oriented diets on the Internet in the past, so I'm apparently not the only one. Even GS reported that he's doing better on his current diet than he did on Wai. I'm not saying, though, that my experience necessarily applies to anyone else. Just sharing my experience that even whole fruits have negative effects on me. Even small amounts of any plant carbs give me acne breakouts and other symptoms and I've been able to repeat this experiment in myself numerous times.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to handle wild berries better, as I would like to be able to eat some occasional berries without annoying symptoms, but it's probably mostly wishful thinking on my part.