Possible to ferment fat?

[Chester]

 I was wondering if it was possible to ferment fats in order to make them predigested and hopefully more easily usable by the body. I've been trying to adapt to a high fat and meat diet for the past 4-5 months with not to good of results as of yet and was hoping that maybe fermented fats would be less of a burden on the body. So basically i was wondering if you guys think it's possible to ferment fat and does anyone think it would be a good idea  to do so? I can't seem to find really any info about doing it online other than fermented fish oil. But I think fermented fish oil is only called fermented because the livers are fermented to get the oil to be released and I'm not sure that the oil actually becomes fermented so I'm not sure that would work. So if anyone has any info please post it.

[kurite]

Well if you can handle eating it (because of taste not because the tax on your body) then try eating high meat. Tylerdurden wrote about how to make it. Its suppose to be very easily digested.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/

[PaleoPhil]

On the TV show "Medicine Men Go Wild," the twin British physicians were amazed by the health of the Chukchi people who ate little else than fermented walrus and whale fat and meat plus cooked walrus and whale organs and water.

[van]

It may be in my head, although I don't think so, but when my fat starts to oxidize, my body doesn't like it as much, ie, I don't seem to get the same energy level.  In the video it looked like they almost sewed the meat/fat shut with the skin on the outside as a protecting layer.  This might have to do with maintaining moisture for fermentation or to keep the fat from oxidizing?  It made me curious.    They might be 'more' healthy if they were able to eat fresh year around, who knows?

[Hannibal]

Have you seen "Bizarre foods: Alaska"? There was fermented whale oil and dunuk (whale blubber that didn't break down during the fermmentation). That whale oil is fermented for a couple of weeks.
Watch this - http://tinyurl.com/yllfwwr

[van]

thanks for posting it,  I have wanted for the longest time to go to Alaska and taste/feed.   But whale is full of pufas and still wonder if those fats oxidize during the fermentation process.  Have to find out.

[Chester]

Well if you can handle eating it (because of taste not because the tax on your body) then try eating high meat. Tylerdurden wrote about how to make it. Its suppose to be very easily digested.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/

Yes i actually just started to make my first batch of high meat a day before i posted my question, hopefully that will make the meat easier to digest.

It may be in my head, although I don't think so, but when my fat starts to oxidize, my body doesn't like it as much, ie, I don't seem to get the same energy level. 

The fat oxidizing was one of my biggest concerns, but maybe if I can create a air tight seal it would prevent oxidization but then with the airtight seal I would start to worry about botulism.

On the TV show "Medicine Men Go Wild," the twin British physicians were amazed by the health of the Chukchi people who ate little else than fermented walrus and whale fat and meat plus cooked walrus and whale organs and water.

Thanks, I'll look that up.

[ys]

Usually term fermentation applies to carbs.  Only carbohydrates can be fermented, in other words conversion of sugar into alcohol or acids.

Fermented fatty or oily foods in my opinion are really pickled.  All far northern foods are fermented with salt or sea water which is what pickling is. 

I am not sure if pickling aids digestion or not.

What are your side effects/issues when you eat regular fat?

[RawZi]

    It's not fermentation totally, nor too paleo, but you can sprout nuts and seeds, blend into rejuvelac and let them culture.  This makes its fats free up into fatty acids instead.  It might be nice for you to do this for some variety.  It's a careful process.

[alphagruis]

Usually term fermentation applies to carbs.  Only carbohydrates can be fermented, in other words conversion of sugar into alcohol or acids.

Yes from a technical point of view pure fatty acids definitely cannot be fermented.

Because fermentation means anaerobic catabolism and degradation as a consequence of microorganism activity and fatty acids must be oxidized i.e. need the presence of oxygen to be used as fuel or for other purposes.

Pure fat is actually an excellent means to preserve food, for instance in pemmican (or traditional "confit d'oie ou de canard" here in France), because it cannot be used by anaerobic microorganisms. Only carbs can be readily used in these conditions, which is by the way also the reason why even carnivores must either eat or produce a minimum of carbs from amino acids and glycerol in the form of glucose and glycogen to be able to face the need of short and intense muscular activity. A conversion process that by itself costs energy and produces waste such as urea.    

[Hannibal]

From my experience the suet is susceptible to mold.

[alphagruis]

From my experience the suet is susceptible to mold.

Yes, sure but notice that molds grow at the surface only i.e. in the presence of oxygen. These organisms are precisely capable to use fat as fuel as are mitochondries or other aerobic microorganisms.

This is definitely not a fermentation of the fat.

Fermentation is the result in bulk of food (no oxygen) of yeasts and carbs

[majormark]

So, if suet is left out to oxidize than it's not good for you? (not that I think suet is very good actually)

[PaleoPhil]

Usually term fermentation applies to carbs.  Only carbohydrates can be fermented, in other words conversion of sugar into alcohol or acids.

Fermented fatty or oily foods in my opinion are really pickled.  All far northern foods are fermented with salt or sea water which is what pickling is.  ...

Are you sure that salt is always used? In the Chukchi video, it just showed them wrapping the walrus up in its own hide and then they buried it. They didn't mention salt or sea water. The Wikipedia note on stink fish and stink head also doesn't mention salt or sea water: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_cuisine.

[Chester]

I am not sure if pickling aids digestion or not.

What are your side effects/issues when you eat regular fat?

Very good point I didn't realize carbs were needed for fermentation to take place. And as far as side effects go I get extremely tired after eating a fat and protein meal even from eating a small serving as in a half pound of meat. Also after I eat a meal I get a squeezing sensation in my lower right stomach which I would say is probably my gallbladder. I can also see liquid fat in the toilet after a bowel movement so I believe I'm not properly digesting the fat. Having said all that I probably just need to stick with eating small meals and wait untill my body adjusts to the different foods I'm now eating.

[djr_81]

Very good point I didn't realize carbs were needed for fermentation to take place. And as far as side effects go I get extremely tired after eating a fat and protein meal even from eating a small serving as in a half pound of meat. Also after I eat a meal I get a squeezing sensation in my lower right stomach which I would say is probably my gallbladder. I can also see liquid fat in the toilet after a bowel movement so I believe I'm not properly digesting the fat. Having said all that I probably just need to stick with eating small meals and wait untill my body adjusts to the different foods I'm now eating.

Definite sounds like you're having some issues making enough bile. It'll resolve itself over time like you said. You might want to source some grassfed marrow bones to supplement your fat for now. It'll break down easier and therefore be less of a burden on your gallbladder as it adjusts.

[ys]

can also see liquid fat in the toilet after a bowel movement so I believe I'm not properly digesting the fat.

well, the best thing would be to find someone who had exactly the same symptoms and ask what they did to correct it.  but realistically it is pretty hard to do.

i would try different kinds of fats (butter included) and different foods and all different combination and ratios to see what works the best.  remember, everyone responds very differently to the same foods, so go and experiment.  hey if butter makes you feel better go for it.  some will stress that butter is not paleo and has negative side-effects but if it works for you who are you going to listen, your body or someone else?

[ys]

Are you sure that salt is always used? In the Chukchi video, it just showed them wrapping the walrus up in its own hide and then they buried it. They didn't mention salt or sea water.

you might be correct on this specific way of preserving food, i've never heard of it and will not deny it does not exist.
in general, salt is the most widely used ingredient for preparing food for storage.  like pickled herring, you would salt it all over and it would release juice (brine) and ferment in this brine.  what exactly is the byproduct of this fermentation i don't really know.  fermentation is the conversion of one substance into another (sugar into alcohol - the most common example).

From my experience the suet is susceptible to mold.

very true, suet does pretty well in the freezer but in the room temperature it quickly grows mold.  mold will grow on almost any food in the right temperature and humidity.

in general solid fats are preserved by curing, smoking, or salting.  i'm not aware of any other way.

[PaleoPhil]

I've been drying my suet at room temp in paper bags in my pantry. So far no mold, even though my beef jerky usually starts getting moldy in under a week. It does get wet and musty-smelling if I leave it in plastic--especially in the fridge.

[Hannibal]

 mold will grow on almost any food in the right temperature and humidity.

The raw meat isn't susciptible to mold. The bacteria contest with the mold.

[PaleoPhil]

The raw meat isn't susciptible to mold. The bacteria contest with the mold.

I find raw beef jerky to be very susceptible to mold when the air is moist and warm--which is particularly during the summer here in New England.