Teeth Profiles how carnivorous a person is meant to be?

[William]

By starting your raw food journey on a omnivore diet high in fruits and vegetables instead of a carnivore diet your more likely to find the foods that suit you and in the right amount.If you find that you gradually move towards being carnivore, then hey that good for you, but at least you learned.

I did exactly that.

It took me ~10 years of suffering increasing damage from whatever caused my so-called terminal and incurable modern disease before I finally tried RZC, and the damage stopped.
It left me with a damaged nervous system and a weak heart and other problems.

I believe on the basis of my experience and the work of Rosedale, Taubes, Stefansson, Donaldson and others who support the paleolithic diet that the cause of my disease and others in equally desperate condition including cancer is high blood sugar/insulin resistance.

To suggest that those who need help do as I did is as callous and ignorant as any modern allopathic physician.

Your advice might be OK for those starting a "raw food journey", but for those who come here seeking help with healing, it can be a way to death or permanent disability.



BTW GS, I have what is considered paleolithic fruit in my freezer, and I eat some whenever I feel like it. This has been one cup in the last two months.
They are called blueberries.

[pc701]

So your saying you were on a raw omnivore diet for 10 years williams?

[RawZi]

By starting your raw food journey on a omnivore diet high in fruits and vegetables instead of a carnivore diet your more likely to find the foods that suit you and in the right amount.If you find that you gradually move towards being carnivore, then hey that good for you, but at least you learned.

    It depends on how much time you have to learn.  I was too sick and I had too much dependent on me in the near future to be dawdling around back and forth between all kinds of diets when I went raw last time.  I had already done all the health diets over several decades except regular SAD and any kind of RAF.  I read tons night and day for six months and came to the conclusion I needed fats first but that I would be on the path of low carb high fat majority animal foods all raw.  Then I dove in.  For some people it's just right to think it out for themselves, and then take a big plunge into what is right for them.  I am still learning, but I still feel raw omnivore suits me best.

    Have you read Lex's testimonial on Raw Paleo Diet . com?
http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/lex-rooker-usa/

[goodsamaritan]

It is very enlightening for William to share his own experience.  It shows that healing is an individual thing for people.

We are lucky the founders of this forum Craig and Geoff decided to make it all encompassing so people are free to adjust their practice of RPD according to their needs at that point in their life.

[pc701]

I agree, some people may not have the time. But the question still remains, is it best/safe to just dive into a zero-carb pure fat and meat diet or something more varied and open like raw omnivore?

[goodsamaritan]

I agree, some people may not have the time. But the question still remains, is it best/safe to just dive into a zero-carb pure fat and meat diet or something more varied and open like raw omnivore?

Zero carb would have been a disaster for me to go zero carb in my former diseased state. 

[PaleoPhil]

I agree, some people may not have the time. But the question still remains, is it best/safe to just dive into a zero-carb pure fat and meat diet or something more varied and open like raw omnivore?

I think it probably depends on individual variables. I wouldn't make a broad prescription that everyone start with raw omnivore diet containing fruits, vegetables, eggs, bone marrow, and fish before trying any land mammal flesh.

I say find what works best for you as an individual, and be award of potential problems (like dental problems from too much fruit, kidney stone risks in a diet containing lots of animal protein with insufficient water, early difficulty some have digesting high amounts of fats, etc.).

[William]

I agree, some people may not have the time. But the question still remains, is it best/safe to just dive into a zero-carb pure fat and meat diet or something more varied and open like raw omnivore?

From experience, it is safe to eat only the essential nutrients, without which we die.
The engineering motto  works here - K.I.S.S.

[MrBBQ]

I've not been on the forum for a few weeks due to professional commitments during the week and domestic commitments during the weekend, so it's nice to come back to a thread like this...

I have big fangs on top and bottom, which is great, considering that my jaw was underdeveloped enough to crowd those fangs up a little (if I knew about Weston Price's studies when I was a fuetus/infant/child, I would've informed my mother, who was at least prudent enough to breast feed me for 18 months).

Meat and fat feel great and perfect for my own taste/bite...

Nevertheless, along with the anecdote has to come some understanding/science/physiology/pathology and precipitates that have crystallised out of solution in the various channels/ducts/organs should be a focus of anyone trying to heal the complete cellular metabolism, be it bone, skin, brain, endothelial cells, GI tract, blood, lymphatics etc.

Particularly, the cholelithiasis (debris and then tissue pathology in the biliary/liver/GB system) and nephrolithiasis (debris and then tissue pathology in the urinary/kidney system) should be of great concern, given that after the upstream blood/lymph/tissues/organs, these are the primary organs of elimination. Any pathology in the liver can result in a pathology of the kidneys, and vice versa.

I've noticed constipation and dark eye circles related to increased meat/fat consumption, which is definitely not a hallmark of healing - something I attribute to inter-related DEFICIENT liver/kidney function. Furthermore, I cannot maintain a decent BASAL METABOLIC RATE when eating only fruits and meat+fat, plus I believe that excessive nut/seed consumption represents too much PUFA in the diet, which I don't have the vitamin E or ORAC status to counter sufficiently.

As always (at least for me), the cosmos seems to be presenting me with a catch-22 scenario and that ain't good.

Personally, in my opinion (which is also wisely stated by goodsamaritan), it's necessary to clear debris in the elimination organs before embarking on our true heritage diet. Some people here think that you only need food to heal, yet there are many other tools to streamline healing - goodsamaritan seems to be one of the only ones here to embrace that, along with myself.

For example, any deficiency in bile production and liver/GB contraction definitely means a diminished ability to uptake fat and fat-soluble vitamins.

Decades of poor diet/lifestyle results in crystallisation of solids out of solution (and in most cases calcification) in the many passageways and chambers of the body/organs, which don't normalise with a paleo diet, therefore, other tools are required (herbs/tinctures, cleansing/flushing).

Does anyone know about the beneficial effect of small amounts of juniper berries on the urinary system - maybe it's a good choice for blending into pemmicans or further drying and grinding with salt/pepper onto raw meat?

Currently, I'm trying to heal my teeth on raw paleo and I consider increasing my bile output to be priority number 1 in this endeavour.

Furthermore, I imagine that most of you somehow listen to Patrick Timpone's podcasts and he often mentions the "digestive bitters" formula for stimulating digestion - that's probably a great interim measure while people are trying to become "stone free" in their organs of elimination. I live in the UK, so I probably wouldn't buy that formula, but I make my own teas/tinctures, so complexing such a formula myself would not be too challenging.

Another great tool for keeping bile moving/liquid is Apple Cider Vinegar (even though it absolutely destroys tooth enamel on contact - rinse before use and immediately afterwards with sodium bicarbonate). Apple cider vinegar has the potent malic acid content, yet without the nasty sugar spike from apple juice - perfect in the week build up to emptying the liver/GB/ducts with a flush!

KISS is a great approach, if you have non-impaired elimination organ function...My motto is that food cannot save you alone and simplicity comes through a wiser understanding, hence the Egyptian cosmological axiom "as above, so below"...

Medicine existed in the pre-neolithic period, so let's embrace those tools.

[MrBBQ]

Another thing is that it's health to read raw vegan blogs/forums, just to accumulate all the great ideas for preparing benign plant foods, which include beneficial anti-oxidants, minerals/vitamins/co-factors and weak organic acids - all of these things are beneficial to the human physiology.

Of course, there are also the great ferments with their complement of organic acids for detoxifying in a very toxic world.

It's a shame that non-heirloom fruits contain massive sugar imbalances, which are not greatly beneficial for the paleo-wannabe.

Does anyone read about the GAPS diet, particularly with a focus on increasing collagen/gelatin intake for healing+sealing an over-permeable gut? I've been grinding my own bone meal recently (thanks to great advice about farrier rasps from my friends here) and I wondered if anyone knew if this powder/meal contains collagen, like bone broths do (I imagine that there is). I somehow almost always feel great after a couple of tablespoons of raw grass-fed bone meal (usually eat it with some marrow from the same bone).

Also, does anyone know about lipid peroxide levels in long-aged "high" meat, which could be a source of radicals, unless it's protected by the lactic acid fermentation from native cultures?

[djr_81]

Does anyone read about the GAPS diet, particularly with a focus on increasing collagen/gelatin intake for healing+sealing an over-permeable gut? I've been grinding my own bone meal recently (thanks to great advice about farrier rasps from my friends here) and I wondered if anyone knew if this powder/meal contains collagen, like bone broths do (I imagine that there is). I somehow almost always feel great after a couple of tablespoons of raw grass-fed bone meal (usually eat it with some marrow from the same bone).

I was not aware of this but it's a very helpful lead for me. Thank you MrBBQ.
Guess it's time to locate a farrier rasp in earnest...

[miles]

That's what I did pc707. It's little steps at a time. Initially after going paleo(cooked meat) I kept going back to grains now and again, learning that they were bad and then after a while had none. Gradually I stopped having anything with added salt as I learnt myself through accumulation of experience that it wasn't good for me. Same was happening with fruits. Gradually I was having less and less. Initially for digestion issues, and later more and more linking them to all inflammation and reducing them until eliminating. Still a few times I've gone back and had some fruit and it's given me the problems each time and the amount of times I've gone back to them has decreased. A part of that is learning what I am lacking(sleep, fat, meat, frequency, water) which could('ve) be causing me to go back to them occasionally.

Late.. must..sleep.. gnigh.t.t

[William]

A part of that is learning what I am lacking(sleep, fat, meat, frequency, water) which could('ve) be causing me to go back to them occasionally.

Frequency?

[PaleoPhil]

That's what I did pc707. It's little steps at a time. Initially after going paleo(cooked meat) I kept going back to grains now and again, learning that they were bad and then after a while had none. ...

Pretty much same story for me--except with fruits instead of grains. I'd like to be able to eat some fruits, both for safety margin (re: kidney stones and other claimed risks) and a bit of variety and socially fitting in, but my experiments with them have all been negative so far. I seem to be able to tolerate berries and grapes best, so I'm hoping I'll be able to eat some of those. Rawzi's idea of mixing berries with animal/fish fat in the Yupik way seems like a good one that I'll probably try next.

[MrBBQ]

It seems ridiculous to avoid fruit, given that the human organism has the metabolic pathways for processing the associated substances (fructose metabolism via liver etc.). What about the pigment-richness of diverse fruits and their associated anti-oxidant status, i.e. polyphenolic compounds, beta carotenes, tocotrienols etc.

Maybe there's some underlying cause for the intolerance (i.e. causality rather than symptomatology), which needs to be "weeded out" and addressed.

The experiential dynamic of our reality should teach us that nothing is ever quite what it seems - hence the cosmology of dualism. Stay open-minded like a true child of the universe, LOL!

I urge you to read other people (especially physiologists and endocrinologists) outside of raw/non-raw paleo dogma.

[carnivore]

Pretty much same story for me--except with fruits instead of grains. I'd like to be able to eat some fruits, both for safety margin (re: kidney stones and other claimed risks) and a bit of variety and socially fitting in, but my experiments with them have all been negative so far. I seem to be able to tolerate berries and grapes best, so I'm hoping I'll be able to eat some of those. Rawzi's idea of mixing berries with animal/fish fat in the Yupik way seems like a good one that I'll probably try next.

I can eat fruits but tiny bit at a time. For exemple, half a banana, or a kiwi. A modest amount of sugar/fibers is OK !

[William]

 I too can tolerate a small amount of blueberries once in a long while, but why bother?
They are not essential nutrient, and don't seem to do any good.

[carnivore]

I too can tolerate a small amount of blueberries once in a long while, but why bother?
They are not essential nutrient, and don't seem to do any good.

That's your experience. None mine. My one year experience of ZC shows me that carbs are essential for my health.

[William]

Are you sure it's carbs that are essential? There are more things in plants, and it could be some micro-nutrient that is doing good.
I'm thinking of grass-eating cats.

[alphagruis]

That's your experience. None mine. My one year experience of ZC shows me that carbs are essential for my health.

Neither mine. William, you just cannot safely draw the conclusions you draw about carbs from your own experience.

I'm also an homo sapiens and I'm on RPD and eat carbs or plant foods routinely for 11 years now and I'm quite well, having apparently cured my ailments as you have. And this is merely at odds with your hasty and pretentious conclusions.

There are so much things we simply don't yet know. Things are obviously not that simple as "carbs are bad" for ZC devotees or "meat is bad" for vegan devotees etc...

I suggest ZC devotees take as an example the cautious and balanced posts of Lex in his journal and use them as food for thought.

I certainly do not claim that "ZC is bad" because I eat carbs. And I am very amused by ZCarbers who claim that "carbs are bad"  because they don't eat carbs.

 

[carnivore]

Are you sure it's carbs that are essential? There are more things in plants, and it could be some micro-nutrient that is doing good.
I'm thinking of grass-eating cats.

Yes, my body definitively requires carbs to function properly. On a carnivorous diet, I simply overeat protein and fat to compensate for the lack of carbs. Not good at all...

[PaleoPhil]

It seems ridiculous to avoid fruit, given that the human organism has the metabolic pathways for processing the associated substances (fructose metabolism via liver etc.). What about the pigment-richness of diverse fruits and their associated anti-oxidant status, i.e. polyphenolic compounds, beta carotenes, tocotrienols etc.

Just as William or my ZC experience doesn't necessarily apply to all, so your experience with fruit doesn't necessarily apply to all. I think discussion improves when we focus on sharing our experiences rather than trying to apply them to everyone.

As I mentioned, I WANT to be able to eat raw fruit, but find I generally don't do well on even small amounts of it. I think berries may be the least offensive of the lot for me, so I intend to experiment some more with them, and probably add animal fat to them to see if that helps. I also recommend reading Lex's journal posts, especially the ones about the supposedly magical ingredients in fruits and veg, such as the ones you mentioned.

I urge you to read other people (especially physiologists and endocrinologists) outside of raw/non-raw paleo dogma.

Are you claiming that I or someone else here doesn't do this? Do you have any specific ones to recommend?

Stay open-minded like a true child of the universe, LOL!

Yes, my own approach is not to assume that either all carbs are bad or that I need carbs to function. I consider that pretty open-minded.

[TylerDurden]

If the reason for some people thriving either on RZC or raw omnivorous rawpalaeo is simply due to some faulty digestive system as a result of decades on a SAD diet, then, presumably, after some lengthy period(10-30 years?), RZCers should be able to handle raw omnivorous diets without hassle and raw omnivores could handle a raw zero-carb diet without issues either. Obviously not taking into account the inevitable transitional effects of switching to either diet from the other.

So far, I haven't seen any difference in my RZC trials after 3 and 6 years into raw omnivorous rawpalaeo. Maybe, I'll try again after 11 years have passed.

[carnivore]

As I mentioned, I WANT to be able to eat raw fruit, but find I generally don't do well on even small amounts of it. I think berries may be the least offensive of the lot for me, so I intend to experiment some more with them, and probably add animal fat to them to see if that helps.

The less you eat a food, the less you'll be able to digest it properly (loss of required enzymes, etc.). The more you eat it, the more you'll be able to handle it. For example, some long time vegans cannot digest even a little bit of raw meat. I found that after one year of ZC, I could not handle even a modest amount of fruits. Now it is much better, even if fibers will remain a big problem for me.

I also recommend reading Lex's journal posts, especially the ones about the supposedly magical ingredients in fruits and veg, such as the ones you mentioned.

Nobody believes in magic components in whatever food. The fact remains that plant food contains known and unknown nutrients that we are adapted to.

Yes, my own approach is not to assume that either all carbs are bad or that I need carbs to function. I consider that pretty open-minded.

Wise attitude.

[William]

The less you eat a food, the less you'll be able to digest it properly (loss of required enzymes, etc.).

I had no problems with digesting cherries and peaches last summer after 9 months of RZC.