Cooked Starches

[KD]

William, I am impartial in this situation, but maybe if you could provide the info on how you uh.. construct your pemmican without the use of heat that will be beneficial.

[TylerDurden]

William, as usual, you are simply ignoring the dictionary and people`s common usage of terms and refusing to accept that pemmican is heated as a standard practice. And tallow as a term is indeed used to describe heated suet so that claim of yours is also false.

Since you persist in such frequent flat-earth-style pronouncements despite numerous warnings from other mods, it`s clear that further nonsense of this sort will have to be redacted from now on, with more actions to come, to ensure stricter adherence to the truth. Quite frankly, given that virtually all your ridiculous dietary beliefs come straight from that fool  The Bear, your absurd views hold no place here,and you would be better placed to post instead on the ZIOH forum where you`ll find many sharing your exact same retarded fundamentalist views.

[Hannibal]

But combining a raw dried meat with raw suet is not the problem. This kind o pemmican is 100% raw.

[TylerDurden]

But combining a raw dried meat with raw suet is not the problem. This kind o pemmican is 100% raw.

That wasn't what William was talking about. He was referring to heated/rendered animal  fats in pemmican , to 200 fahrenheit etc., as raw. Whatever the case, in order to make pemmican one has to render it and therefore heat it(genuinely long-lasting pemmican has to be heated to very high temperatures). Raw suet and dried jerky together is not official pemmican therefore, it's something else.

[Hannibal]

Raw suet and dried jerky together is not official pemmican therefore, it's something else.

Yeah, I know. Besides its shelf life would be quite short.
As you said the suet must be heated to high temperatures to create long-lasting pemmican, such as inuit one.

[William]

Post redacted due to the intentional making of deliberately incorrect statements.

redact [r??dækt]
vb (tr)
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) to compose or draft (an edict, proclamation, etc.)
2. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) to put (a literary work, etc.) into appropriate form for publication; edit
[from Latin redigere to bring back, from red- re- + agere to drive]

Makes no sense.

[TylerDurden]

redact [r??dækt]
vb (tr)
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) to compose or draft (an edict, proclamation, etc.)
2. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) to put (a literary work, etc.) into appropriate form for publication; edit
[from Latin redigere to bring back, from red- re- + agere to drive]

Makes no sense.

  The word "redact" is used to relate to editors attempts to rewrite certain other peoples`texts which contain incorrect  data and/or  which are deliberately false. In the above case of your previous post, there was so much misinformation that everything had to go.

[William]

  The word "redact" is used to relate to editors attempts to rewrite certain other peoples`texts which contain incorrect  data and/or  which are deliberately false. In the above case of your previous post, there was so much misinformation that everything had to go.

Deleting my posts will not convince anyone.

[Hans89]

Deleting my posts will not convince anyone.

If you explain how you make raw pemmican, that will be quite convincing.

[TylerDurden]

Deleting my posts will not convince anyone.

  Deleting your lies  is necessary as otherwise ignorant newbies might be falsely believe that pemmican was always raw etc.

[alphagruis]

If you explain how you make raw pemmican, that will be quite convincing.

William has done it before in another thread and this same controversy emerges repeatedly and will certainly continue to do so in future. William is right when he claims that there is a huge difference in terms of heat generated toxins between his "raw pemmican" and usual cooked meat and fat. That's just basic science already discussed before. This subtle reality just doesn't fit into TD's ideology which  is apparently of the dichotomic "everything must be either black or white" type.

[TylerDurden]

William has done it before in another thread and this same controversy emerges repeatedly and will certainly continue to do so in future. William is right when he claims that there is a huge difference in terms of heat generated toxins between his "raw pemmican" and usual cooked meat and fat. That's just basic science already discussed before. This subtle reality just doesn't fit into TD's ideology which  is apparently of the dichotomic "everything must be either black or white" type.

  You dont like this of course but the fact is that your speculations are to a large extent suspect simply because most RVAFers mention doing increasingly  badly on pemmican healthwise. Therefore for anyone like William to promote pemmican as a health-food is not only dangerous for other members but also trollish.

But that`s all by the by. This is both a raw and a palaeolithic diet forum both at the same time. It is not a forum for promoting raw veganism or cooked zero-carb diets or junk food diets or cooked SAD diets or pemmican-heavy diets  or  similiar nonsense(and there are plenty such as yourself on those other forums who make similiar scientific claims for those various other diets). I would have no problem if pemmican was occasionally mentioned in the hot topics forum once in a great while by a member, but for it to be constantly mentioned by 1 particular troll again and again on other forums, is, of course, utterly unacceptable.

[Paleo Donk]

Why not start a new thread to battle it out? Could be mildly entertaining. I agree with grius on this completely.

[TylerDurden]

Why not start a new thread to battle it out? Could be mildly entertaining. I agree with grius on this completely.

  It would be pointless for several reasons.- a) plenty of rpders report having negative health issues with pemmican  b) food-science is so new, with rendered fats being far, far less studied scientifically than any other kinds of processed heated foods( other than plenty of links made between rendered animal fats and mad cow disease), that scientific claims would not mean much until  some more decades of research. More to the point, we cant have situations where trolls dominate endless threads focusing on the imagined health benefits of a particular non-rpd food or diet. That was what happened with superinfinity and some other trolls such as metallica, who  caused great disruption and annoyance to members before they were in the end  mercifully put down, so to speak. William is a more extreme version of the Superinifinity troll and has already disrupted these forums  countless  times in the past  re mentioning/promoting   pemmican(let alone william`s moronic creationist claims which are embarassing for this rpd forum) which just  can`t be allowed to continue in the same vein.  Once in a while in hot topics would be acceptable and the relevant quota has long been exceeded to put it mildly. Doing it on and on counts as trolling.

[goodsamaritan]

Can we settle this raw pemmican debate / clarification here?

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/how-do-you-make-%27raw%27-pemmican/

[alphagruis]

  You dont like this of course but the fact is that your speculations are to a large extent suspect simply because most RVAFers mention doing increasingly  badly on pemmican healthwise. Therefore for anyone like William to promote pemmican as a health-food is not only dangerous for other members but also trollish.

Tyler, the question is not whether I like something or not and deals not with the usual form of pemmican but with the "raw" pemmican variety of William. I don't know of any clear cut evidence of people doing so badly when eating this form of pemmican.

The RVAFers you mention ate in fact the usual form of pemmican where the meat is dried at temperatures above 40 °C (104 °F) and the fat rendered above boiling water temperature, not to mention the quality ( heavily grain fed) of the fat and meat.

That said I do not disagree with your concern about the general RAWPALEO concept and do not advocate to adopt this kind of food as usual food but I definitely consider this "raw" pemmican concept of very high interest for all RPDers in specific circumstances such as travel etc.

 

[TylerDurden]

Tyler, the question is not whether I like something or not and deals not with the usual form of pemmican but with the "raw" pemmican variety of William. I don't know of any clear cut evidence of people doing so badly when eating this form of pemmican.

The RVAFers you mention ate in fact the usual form of pemmican where the meat is dried at temperatures above 40 °C (104 °F) and the fat rendered above boiling water temperature, not to mention the quality ( heavily grain fed) of the fat and meat.

That said I do not disagree with your concern about the general RAWPALEO concept and do not advocate to adopt this kind of food as usual food but I definitely consider this "raw" pemmican concept of very high interest for all RPDers in specific circumstances such as travel etc.

I don`t have the slightest problem with RPDers using pemmican as a 2nd-rate food while travelling. Though, IMO, given past reports, it`s only useful in that regard for those raw zero-carbers who do much worse on any raw carbs than on some cooked foods. Raw omnivores would be best placed to eat raw fruits instead for a short time, which are generally easily available while travelling.

Judging from the  negative reports of RVAFers, plenty of them ate pemmican from grassfed meat sources but still had various issues. Plus, while quite a number of of them have eaten the dried-meat portion of pemmican in raw form(as defined by  raw food guidelines, less than 40 degrees celsius), the vast majority have heated pemmican to high temperatures well above what could be scientifically called "raw". Lex himself stated that for long term storage the fat in pemmican had to be heated to 250 degrees fahrenheit. As for William, when in the past  pressed about temperatures he used, he mentioned 200 degrees fahrenheit plus for the fat; judging from past posts in which he claimed that tallow was raw and  couldn`t be considered to have been heated until it was heated over 300 degrees fahrenheit, he seems to have a different notion of what "raw" really means compared to everybody else. Now, Paleophil mentioned heating pemmican at much lower temperatures(I think much less than boiling point of water?) and that could be considered  much less harmful, though not on a par with standard raw meats/fats of course.

[Hannibal]

Complex carbohydrates that are not easily digested feed harmful bacteria in our intestines causing them to overgrow producing by products and inflaming the intestine wall. The diet works by starving out these bacteria and restoring the balance of bacteria in our gut.
The Specific Carbohydrate Diet™ is biologically correct because it is species appropriate. The allowed foods are mainly those that early man ate before agriculture began. The diet we evolved to eat over millions of years was predominantly one of meat, fish, eggs, vegetables, nuts, low-sugar fruits. Our modern diet including starches, grains, pasta, legumes, and breads has only been consumed for a mere 10,000 years. In the last hundred years the increase in complex sugars and chemical additives in the diet has led to a huge increase in health problems ranging from severe bowel disorders to obesity and brain function disorders. We have not adapted to eat this modern diet as there has not been enough time for natural selection to operate. It therefore makes sense to eat the diet we evolved with.

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/beginners_guide/beginners.htm

The  rationale of the diet, as described in Breaking  the Vicious Cycle, is as follows:

1. When the body receives complex carbohydrates (disaccharides or polysaccharides) these substances must be broken down before they can be absorbed.
2. In the body of a person who is not able to break these substances down efficiently, an influx of undigested material causes harmful bacteria to flourish.
3. Bacterial overgrowth is accordingly followed by a significant increase in the waste and other irritants they produce.
4. Irritation in the lining of the digestive tract results in the overproduction of mucus and injury to the digestive tract, which in turn causes malabsorption and makes it even more difficult to maintain proper digestion.

The purpose of the diet is to break the ongoing cycle caused by an overpopulation of harmful bacteria in the gut. When the body is able to absorb the proper nutrients from simple sugars and other carbohydrates that are easy to digest, the inflammation and other complications caused by many auto-immune diseases can be lessened. The goal is to rid the body of complex saccharides so that the gut will be able to heal itself and enable further healing to occur.

The method of the diet is to keep the bacterial flora well balanced and to allow the gut to digest all of the food it is given, thereby starving out the harmful bacteria.

Certain foods, such as commercial syrups and sugars, starchy vegetables, and dairy products are not allowed while on the diet. Other foods, such as fruits, greens, animal protein, and nuts are allowed.

A plethora of people benefit from substantial reduction or even elimination of complex carbs.

[cliff]

^This is why if you partake in starch it needs to be fermented preferably for a week or 2(maybe longer).  Just about every traditional culture ferments starch before they eat it and this is why they suffer very little problems from them imo.  Fermenting grains turns something that is full of bullshit and generally unhealthy into a nutritious food with very little negative effects

[MrBBQ]

Thanks for chiming in cliff - I've been thinking about long-soaking the tubers etc., so you've given me a nice cue. Do you have experience with fermenting starches, particularly roots/tubers (as opposed to grains) and do you simply long-soak them?

[Ioanna]

I don't know of any clear cut evidence of people doing so badly when eating this form of pemmican. 

me, i am one.. i can promise you the pemmican i made was 'raw'... both meat and fat were left at 85F (3 days for the lean, 1 hour for the fat)... so the fat was not really rendered, just softened and then blended to a viscous liquid.  i even tried it with the same lean mixed with raw bone marrow (not warmed, just fresh and mushed in).

one meal of this, and the intestinal inflammation that will follow is beyond painful.  pain aside, well.. there's more.  these symptoms are just as bad and i think quicker onset as any starch or grain...

[yon yonson]

just wanted to report on a little experiment i did yesterday. i had a few days off, so i decided to experiment with eating some cooked foods again to see if i could tolerate them. i decided to cook one organic parsnip with a slice of onion and some grass-fed bone broth (that i got for free from a farm). i added enough water to cover it all in my little crock pot and put it on low for an hour. it actually went down ok which surprised me. but, an hour or so after eating it, some of my candida issues came back (just kinda itchy all over). but i was surprised it digested without major issues. anyways, im not going to be doing it again most likely because it didn't make me feel good (just not overtly bad), but i thought i'd add this to the discussion.

[djr_81]

Thanks for chiming in cliff - I've been thinking about long-soaking the tubers etc., so you've given me a nice cue. Do you have experience with fermenting starches, particularly roots/tubers (as opposed to grains) and do you simply long-soak them?

I was watching a show on TV, No Reservations With Anthony Bourdain I believe, where they visited a tribe of hunter/gatherers. The women in the tribe would chew on a root until it became a paste in their mouth and then spit it in a bowl. They did this for hours as a group until they had a large amount of the partially digested (salivary enzymes) root. This was then allowed to sit and ferment and eventually eaten or drank (can't remember which). I believe the Hawaiian dish Poi is made in a similar manner. You could try something similar.

[William]

me, i am one.. i can promise you the pemmican i made was 'raw'... both meat and fat were left at 85F (3 days for the lean, 1 hour for the fat)... so the fat was not really rendered, just softened and then blended to a viscous liquid.  i even tried it with the same lean mixed with raw bone marrow (not warmed, just fresh and mushed in).

You are braver than I - I stay as close as possible to the traditional  pemmican sold to the Hudson's Bay Co. Just eating the stuff is experiment enough for me; trying a new recipe is too much.

[Ioanna]

why is this brave?... it's the most raw version of pemmican i could think of...