Does dehydrating meat oxidize fat?

[kurite]

Hey just wondering with all of that circulating air does dehydrating meat oxidize fat? I realize that jerky is low fat but I make a higher fat version and am concerned.

[Raw Kyle]

I don't think you should worry about meat oxidation at all. It can't be avoided anyway. If it happens, it's only happening to the exposed area. If you were grinding it over and over then it could happen all the way through.

[Michael]

Hello all,

Well, it's been over 6 months since I've signed in to RPF following various distractions so it's good to be back! 

I've been almost 10 years now on this diet and, seeking time/labour food preparation solutions, have recently purchased a heavy duty meat mincer/grinder.  Aware that many here, including PaleoPhil and Lex if I recall correctly, consume their meat largely in ground form I thought this would offer me great time savings from my long-term hand slicing preparation methods.

What is the general consensus on consumption of ground/minced beef?

What are your opinions on ground/minced meats with regard to oxidation of fats and it's potential detriment to health?

I've been experimenting with my new toy and have been thoroughly enjoying homemade dehydrated ground beef burgers/patties - basically, fresh ground meat pressed into patties/burgers and dehydrated at 105deg for 2-12hrs.  I've been making these in bulk over the last week or so which has enabled me to enjoy up to 5 days worth of pre-prepared food with no further preparation or clean-up required!

But, I am genuinely concerned about the long-term implications of this.  A very quick review of the literature seems inconclusive.  A 2008 study on cholesterol & lipid oxidation by the Swedish University of Agricultural Science states 'COPs significantly increased in raw beef during storage: after 1, 8 and 15 days since packaging COPs were at the levels of 10.4, 30.7 and 60.5 ?g/g of fat, respectively.' whilst a recent study by the University of Bologna states 'In raw beef, cholesterol and lipid oxidation developed at a slow rate. Cholesterol oxidation products (COPs) did not significantly vary (approximately 8 microg COPs g(-1) of fat) over 8 days, while in the same period thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARS) less than doubled (from 0.7 to 1.2 malondialdehyde equivalents kg(-1) of muscle).'

My own intuitions and basic knowledge strongly advises me against continuing this practice particularly in the, perhaps coincidental, light of the fact that I've developed a cough/cold recently which I can't seem to shake off (very unusual!). 

What are other's thoughts?

Michael

[djr_81]

Welcome back Michael. How's the baby?

I've done the same as you a number of times in the past (the dehydrating patties) except it was previously ground grass-finished meat from elsewhere. While definitely tasty and a nice treat occasionally I personally don't think it's a viable option for the long-term; it just doesn't feel as nourishing.

If you want to continue with the grinding though I think it'll be ok if you grind in smaller (2-3 day) batches. If it was me I'd cut up the large cuts of meat I got (still eating brisket?) into grindable chunks and keep these well aerated. Every couple of days take one out and grind it up for the next few days meals.

[Michael]

Thanks Dan.  Good to hear from a familiar face.  There seems to be alot of names I don't recognise on the forum following my absence!  How are things with you?

My son, Charlie, is doing good thanks.  I've mentioned a few issues with his diet in another thread but, besides that, he's great.  It's been an incredibly tough year - much harder work than I remember my 12yr old daughter being - and I think it's aged me about 10 years!!  

Good to hear that I'm not the only one to have experimented with these homemade dehydrated patties.  I think, like you, I'll probably reserve them as a special occasional treat.  I've certainly been enjoying them but my health seems to have deteriorated recently and it may be no coincidence.  Instead, I'll just experiment using the new grinder/mincer for preparing instant fresh meat a meal at a time without any dehydrating.  Obviously I have to justify the expense of it now so need to use it regularly!  

Thanks for your thoughts.

[ys]

What are your opinions on ground/minced meats with regard to oxidation of fats and it's potential detriment to health?

i would assume that there is always oxidation to some degree. how much, only chemical lab can answer that.  all other claims would be pure speculation.

effects on health?  who knows?  again, highly debatable and speculative, none of us are scientists here so make your best judgment when reading replies.

personally i prefer to chew softer parts.  harder parts, especially the tip of the tongue, i'd like it to be ground.

[djr_81]

Thanks Dan.  Good to hear from a familiar face.  There seems to be alot of names I don't recognise on the forum following my absence!  How are things with you?

Same old same old. Things have been easier on me the past couple months since I upped my fat some more but other than that not much to talk about.

My son, Charlie, is doing good thanks.  I've mentioned a few issues with his diet in another thread but, besides that, he's great.  It's been an incredibly tough year - much harder work than I remember my 12yr old daughter being - and I think it's aged me about 10 years!!  

Make sure you keep us updated as he grows up. My wife, after many years of flat out "no kids", seems to be warming up to the idea so someday we may have a youngin' of our own (she said she needs to make her mind up by 35; 4 more years) and they'd be brought up in much the same way as your son. She enjoys some raw meat but she isn't willing to give up cooked meat or pasteurized dairy yet so her diet's kind of WAPish.

Good to hear that I'm not the only one to have experimented with these homemade dehydrated patties.  I think, like you, I'll probably reserve them as a special occasional treat.  I've certainly been enjoying them but my health seems to have deteriorated recently and it may be no coincidence.  Instead, I'll just experiment using the new grinder/mincer for preparing instant fresh meat a meal at a time without any dehydrating.  Obviously I have to justify the expense of it now so need to use it regularly!  

The first time was because I was hungry and the roll of chop meat was still frozen. The dried "skin" was a nice counterpoint in texture so I continued doing it as an occasional treat.
I think there's quite a bit of validity to the detriments of oxidation. I've gone for a week here or there on ground meats and I always felt worse at the end of it. Fresh grinding like you plan should avoid this I would think.

[KD]

Dan (or others) what are you doing these days as far as work meals?


I don't have a grinder, but I'm thinking of cutting my meat into chunks the night before at high-meat size that I cut with scissors and bringing that in. Theres more surface area here too, but It can't be any 'worse' than ground that has been sitting longer.

[djr_81]

Dan what are you doing these days as far as work meals?


I don't have a grinder, but I'm thinking of cutting my meat into chunks the night before at high-meat size that I cut with scissors and bringing that in. Theres more surface area here too, but It can't be any 'worse' than ground that has been sitting longer.

I always cut up my meat (I've had some meals where I tear it off a big piece with my teeth but the convenience of a fork, especially at work, outweigh the few minutes I spend cutting it up.
In the morning I take ~ 5 minutes cutting up both suet and meat, oftentimes brisket, into bite-size (3/4"x3/4") chunks. I throw these into a ziploc, usually 5/6 of a sandwich bag full, and bring it with me. I leave it on my desk to warm throughout the day and eat it when I'm ready for lunch. I frequently bring a smaller bag of the same composition for breakfast in the mornings here while I read my emails at my desk.
I've been eating this way since the beginning (last August) and have no discernible issues as far as I'm aware.
I don't know if I'd do it the night before; that's a personal call for you to make based on your time in the morning.

[KD]

thanks, I'll aim for a morning production. I was hoping I could knock out dinner and a next day meal in one bat. For some reason it feels sometimes my life is spent cutting up meat into chunks when in reality its probably at most 15 minutes of my day. It seems intuitive that overnight wouldn't not be ideal, but I can't quite articulate it if its just a greater difference of hours... are you using your ceramic tools?

[djr_81]

... are you using your ceramic tools?

Yup. I broke off the tip of the small knife is some frozen suet so I just use the big knife now. Still holding up pretty good though it does have a chip or two from overexertion in frozen stuff (I use a metal j=knife for that stuff now). I'll probably pick up another set when I finally break this knife.

[Michael]

Same old same old. Things have been easier on me the past couple months since I upped my fat some more but other than that not much to talk about.

That's interesting.  What have you upped your fat to now?  What's your diet consisting of now if you don't mind me asking?
My ZC was going well but I was really beginning to get bored of meat & suet!  I've had a few splurges on raw cream and berries over the last month or 2 and have decided to include raw butter back into my diet as it's just proving impossible to reliably source other good animal fats in sufficient quantity.  Which fats are you mainly consuming now?

Make sure you keep us updated as he grows up. My wife, after many years of flat out "no kids", seems to be warming up to the idea so someday we may have a youngin' of our own (she said she needs to make her mind up by 35; 4 more years) and they'd be brought up in much the same way as your son. She enjoys some raw meat but she isn't willing to give up cooked meat or pasteurized dairy yet so her diet's kind of WAPish.

I'll certainly keep the group updated if there's interest although it's not looking likely that he's going to be anywhere near the levels of raw paleo I would of liked.  Great news that your wife is warming up to the idea of children and it sounds as though she's in a similar place to my own partner with her diet.  Do you think you'd be happy raising a child on a WAPish diet?  I'd strongly suggest you guys sit down and have a real heart to heart about raising children and diet before you commit to having any.  There have been some testing times in our relationship over the last year with regard to diet I can assure you!!    If I were single again, I don't think I'd get involved in another relationship unless it was with a girl with similar dietary and health ideas as myself - pref a raw paleo girl! 

I think there's quite a bit of validity to the detriments of oxidation. I've gone for a week here or there on ground meats and I always felt worse at the end of it. Fresh grinding like you plan should avoid this I would think.

Yes, I'll keep the burgers as a rare treat or hiking food.  I'm sure fresh ground and immediately consumed meat would be fine.

Dan (or others) what are you doing these days as far as work meals?


I don't have a grinder, but I'm thinking of cutting my meat into chunks the night before at high-meat size that I cut with scissors and bringing that in. Theres more surface area here too, but It can't be any 'worse' than ground that has been sitting longer.

Hi KD.  I've been making 'carpaccio' style meals in bulk for pretty much the duration of my 10 years eating this way without problems.  I tend to slice up a few kg of meat along with chopped onion, herbs etc for flavouring and store it in a container in the fridge.  I usually eat this over a period of around 3 days or so.  I don't think oxidation is much of an issue unless the meat is ground.

[djr_81]

That's interesting.  What have you upped your fat to now?  What's your diet consisting of now if you don't mind me asking?
My ZC was going well but I was really beginning to get bored of meat & suet!  I've had a few splurges on raw cream and berries over the last month or 2 and have decided to include raw butter back into my diet as it's just proving impossible to reliably source other good animal fats in sufficient quantity.  Which fats are you mainly consuming now?

I'd say I might be 80% calories by fat at this point.
I've moved towards mostly brisket in my diet now instead of the chuck I was eating. It's easier to cut up, just as cheap, and has that gorgeous fat cap on it.
My fat is probably 80% suet, 10% fat on the brisket, 7.5% marrow and 7.5% tongue. Still trying to get some brains but no luck so far. I found a great local source of meat and fat at reasonable prices so it was easier for me to up the fat.

I had a bit of a splurge myself a couple months ago; had a big gorging one night on tropical fruits I'd never eaten before. Then had a couple further meals with various fruits, honey, and cheese (both raw and pasteurized). I had to get back to eating cleanly because all my symptoms were flaring pretty bad. Since then I've made headway back to where I was but I'm still dealing with some Candida issues.

I'll certainly keep the group updated if there's interest although it's not looking likely that he's going to be anywhere near the levels of raw paleo I would of liked.  Great news that your wife is warming up to the idea of children and it sounds as though she's in a similar place to my own partner with her diet.  Do you think you'd be happy raising a child on a WAPish diet?  I'd strongly suggest you guys sit down and have a real heart to heart about raising children and diet before you commit to having any.  There have been some testing times in our relationship over the last year with regard to diet I can assure you!!    If I were single again, I don't think I'd get involved in another relationship unless it was with a girl with similar dietary and health ideas as myself - pref a raw paleo girl! 

She sees the benefit of grass-fed/finished meats over grain-finished. She also see the detrimental effect of corn and all the processed shit in the American diet. I'd be content with a "whole" foods WAP-style diet if it came down to it; my biggest concern is making sure that if I have kids they don't get the food allergies I have.

[Michael]

I'd say I might be 80% calories by fat at this point.

How are you finding this?  As you may recall, for a period of time I was experimenting with ZC using 80% of calories from fat and eating little more than suet and beef brisket.  It was very effective in that I felt great but I think it's had a negative longer-term mental effect in that I became extremely bored and disenchanted with eating and with this WOE - hence my splurges!  Is your diet now largely brisket and suet with a little marrow and tongue occasionally Dan?

Still trying to get some brains but no luck so far. I found a great local source of meat and fat at reasonable prices so it was easier for me to up the fat.

Glad to hear it Dan.  My 10 years of eating this way has certainly confirmed to me that it does seem that the ability to consistently source and fund the foods we need is one of the biggest problems!  Personally, I find it a constant battle which can sometimes get a little demoralising.  This does also make me question, sometimes, the validity of what we're doing with regard to the available resources of feeding the population.  The more popular this and similar WOE becomes, the more I struggle to get the foods I need!!

I had a bit of a splurge myself a couple months ago; had a big gorging one night on tropical fruits I'd never eaten before. Then had a couple further meals with various fruits, honey, and cheese (both raw and pasteurized). I had to get back to eating cleanly because all my symptoms were flaring pretty bad. Since then I've made headway back to where I was but I'm still dealing with some Candida issues.

I enjoy hearing from you Dan as your situation & challenges often reflects my own!  I still have Candida issues myself and have been trying to follow a VLC RPD but along Bee Wilder anti-candida lines.  Likewise, I do occasionally indulge in raw dairy, honey or fruit but I certainly notice it when I do!!
How long have you known Candida to have been a problem for you and is there anything specific you do to overcome it?

She sees the benefit of grass-fed/finished meats over grain-finished. She also see the detrimental effect of corn and all the processed shit in the American diet. I'd be content with a "whole" foods WAP-style diet if it came down to it; my biggest concern is making sure that if I have kids they don't get the food allergies I have.

Yes, it is about prioritising one's concerns.  I'm sure any children any of us are blessed with on this forum will be fed far, far better than 99% of the population and better than many of us were fed as children so we can be confident that our children will not suffer many of the common issues we have here.  The hardcore community on this forum and the wisdom shared offers great value in this regard.


All a little off topic for which I apologise!

[djr_81]

How are you finding this?  As you may recall, for a period of time I was experimenting with ZC using 80% of calories from fat and eating little more than suet and beef brisket.  It was very effective in that I felt great but I think it's had a negative longer-term mental effect in that I became extremely bored and disenchanted with eating and with this WOE - hence my splurges!  Is your diet now largely brisket and suet with a little marrow and tongue occasionally Dan?

Yes, that the essential diet. I do buy some occasional chuck as well as "old bull" which is ground meat from the old bulls (cheaper and gamier but it is very lean). The longer I eat this way the more content I am with my WOE and the less I find I am drawn to deviate. I do buy a bit of swordfish every other week to make sure I get enough iodine and other trace minerals I could be missing from just land animals but limit that to less than a pound every other week. I also eat deer when I get it from friends/family (I'd like to begin hunting this fall but it's looking more likely to be next fall).

Glad to hear it Dan.  My 10 years of eating this way has certainly confirmed to me that it does seem that the ability to consistently source and fund the foods we need is one of the biggest problems!  Personally, I find it a constant battle which can sometimes get a little demoralising.  This does also make me question, sometimes, the validity of what we're doing with regard to the available resources of feeding the population.  The more popular this and similar WOE becomes, the more I struggle to get the foods I need!!

Sourcing the quality vendors was the hard part. I've been lucky wherein each of my sources has been anywhere from reasonably priced to downright cheap. The better vendor now has brisket at $9 a pound so his stuff's a treat (but I get cheap fantastic quality suet so always buy from him) but the other vendor is $4 a pound which isn't bad if you're only eating 1-2 pounds of the meat a day. All told most days are $8-$10 for my food. I do notice just in the 3-4 months I've been buying from one vendor that he's now got a waiting list for some of his organ meats and this will only get worse IMO.

I enjoy hearing from you Dan as your situation & challenges often reflects my own!  I still have Candida issues myself and have been trying to follow a VLC RPD but along Bee Wilder anti-candida lines.  Likewise, I do occasionally indulge in raw dairy, honey or fruit but I certainly notice it when I do!!

I agree Michael. Of all the posters here on the forum you do seem to have the closest parallels in diagnosis and course of treatment. I tried a number of Bee's protocols prior to RPD (albeit in the manner of different herbal remedies which she advocates; I hadn't heard of her until I read links to her on this forum) but avoiding all fruits and vegetables has given me the most relief by far. I did do this pre-RPD as well but it was poorly thought out just avoiding foods which bothered my stomach so had lots of cooked meats which didn't do me much better than the Candida. The lack of carbs or adequate fat invariably led to binges on carbs after a couple months of ZC but eating high raw fat like I do now it's much easier to deal with.

How long have you known Candida to have been a problem for you and is there anything specific you do to overcome it?

My first round of food allergies were diagnosed in 2001, round two in 2003, and the last set in early 2006. I think it was probably the middle of 2006 when I began to look into what could have caused such an exponential increase in allergies and slowly came to the Candida/leaky gut conclusion.
Really the only thing that has overcome it, and it's been slow progress on my part, is eating VLC/ZC without any slip-ups with carbs.

[Michael]

Hi Dan,

Sorry I didn't respond to your last post but I've been largely absent from the forum again as well as losing track of any threads I was engaged in.  I've only just discovered the 'show new replies to your posts' option at the top which will be a big help! 

It sounds as though you have it totally worked out now and it's great to hear you're making good progress.  Your food sources sound wonderful and it's superb that you're able to reliable source such high quality foods at such incredible value!  I can assure you that I spend ALOT more!

There are certainly a few of us on here that truly struggle with fruit/veg and carbs in addition to a whole host of other foods of course.  It's good to hear that you're increasingly content with your current WOE and aren't going to succumb to the same issues I had with a diet of meat, organs, marrow and suet.  Although I've been greatly limiting my veg intake I must admit I've been feeling pretty terrible on and off over the last 2 months.  I certainly felt better on my ZC experiment.  I'm going to experiment with cutting out nightshades and may cease the raw butter again in case it's having a negative effect.  I just have real problems obtaining reliable quantities of suet and marrow.  But, I have just managed to arrange free fatty offcuts from one of my regular suppliers which may help.

My first round of food allergies were diagnosed in 2001, round two in 2003, and the last set in early 2006. I think it was probably the middle of 2006 when I began to look into what could have caused such an exponential increase in allergies and slowly came to the Candida/leaky gut conclusion.

It sounds as though it's been an equally long and arduous journey for you.  Do you feel you've healed the leaky gut now or made large gains in the fight against candida since 2006 even though it is still an issue?  It's a long, tough battle isn't it?!  Keep up the great work! 


As an update on the ground meat:  I've been grinding it fresh each day over the last week or two, dehydrating it for an hour or so and then consuming it.  No storage involved.  As one would expect, this has caused me no problems.  Clearly, this is in no way close to the convenience of making batches in bulk to last a period of days but, sadly, we all know how good 'convenience' food is!!    Interestingly, I did recently attempt making some more of the dehydrated burgers and, again, they made me feel ill!  The oxidised fat certainly seems to cause problems!

[djr_81]

Hi Dan,

Hey Michael.

Sorry I didn't respond to your last post but I've been largely absent from the forum again as well as losing track of any threads I was engaged in.  I've only just discovered the 'show new replies to your posts' option at the top which will be a big help! 

No biggie. I know you're busy with the little one.

It sounds as though you have it totally worked out now and it's great to hear you're making good progress.  Your food sources sound wonderful and it's superb that you're able to reliable source such high quality foods at such incredible value!  I can assure you that I spend ALOT more!

Yeah, I've had a couple hiccups in the process since then but it's still affordable. The cheaper vendor gave me grainfed meat for the third time so I cut them off cold. I'm now eating a diet predominantly built around ground and frozen "old bull" I buy for $5 a pound and consume within a day or two of defrosting. No ill effects from the frozen ground status either.
Oh, and I cut salt out of my diet almost completely. I sprinkle a bit on the seafood I eat but that only once every week or two. I've had leaps and bounds in progress since cutting out the salt.

There are certainly a few of us on here that truly struggle with fruit/veg and carbs in addition to a whole host of other foods of course.  It's good to hear that you're increasingly content with your current WOE and aren't going to succumb to the same issues I had with a diet of meat, organs, marrow and suet.  Although I've been greatly limiting my veg intake I must admit I've been feeling pretty terrible on and off over the last 2 months.  I certainly felt better on my ZC experiment.  I'm going to experiment with cutting out nightshades and may cease the raw butter again in case it's having a negative effect.  I just have real problems obtaining reliable quantities of suet and marrow.  But, I have just managed to arrange free fatty offcuts from one of my regular suppliers which may help.
It sounds as though it's been an equally long and arduous journey for you.  Do you feel you've healed the leaky gut now or made large gains in the fight against candida since 2006 even though it is still an issue?  It's a long, tough battle isn't it?!  Keep up the great work! 

The gut is not completely healed IMO but is well on it's way to being so.
I do see quite a bit of improvement to the Candida but it's still a slow progress. As long as I stay the course and don't gorge on more carbs I see things resolving in a couple years which is fine by me. I doubt I'll go back to anything other than VLC even if I can once things are healed.

As an update on the ground meat:  I've been grinding it fresh each day over the last week or two, dehydrating it for an hour or so and then consuming it.  No storage involved.  As one would expect, this has caused me no problems.  Clearly, this is in no way close to the convenience of making batches in bulk to last a period of days but, sadly, we all know how good 'convenience' food is!!    Interestingly, I did recently attempt making some more of the dehydrated burgers and, again, they made me feel ill!  The oxidised fat certainly seems to cause problems!

I'm glad it's working. Not a convenience as you say but worth the effort to feel well.

[Savage]

I've been dehydrating all my meat for the last week now.

I cut them into chunks half the size of a deck of cards, put them for 1-2 hours @ 160F and eat em while they're hot.

I notice my appetite is calmer, I have more energy/better mood and I sleep better.

Before I just ate them straight from the fridge/freezer.

I tried it with beef steaks, pork butt, chicken livers, cat fish, tiger shrimp, ground chicken, ground pork and leg quarters, with a dash of sea salt on each, tastes great.

[tdister]

I've been dehydrating all my meat for the last week now.

I cut them into chunks half the size of a deck of cards, put them for 1-2 hours @ 160F and eat em while they're hot.

160 is cooked. I think 160 internal temp is considered well done. My appetite is "calmer" (smaller anyway) on cooked food too.

[Savage]

160 is cooked. I think 160 internal temp is considered well done. My appetite is "calmer" (smaller anyway) on cooked food too.

160F in a Nesco Dehydrator might be very rare at 2 hours, at 1 hour it's just getting hot.

I feel better eating like this, why? I dunno, but it is a significant difference to me.

[Michael]

Savage, I must admit I mainly prefer to dehydrate my meat meals a little first too as I hate cold meats straight from the fridge and room temp in the UK never seems warm enough! 

It may be a good idea to monitor your food temp with a spiked temperature gauge initially just to be on the safe side.  It would be quite distressing to discover one had actually been effectively 'cooking' one's meat!  But, you're right that it's the temperature of the food that counts.  I recall reading extensive work carried out on this matter by Victoras Kulvinskas and the producers of the Excalibur Dehydrator.  I seem to recall them suggesting that the dehydator could be set to 155deg for the first hour or two.  You may want to read up on their research yourself to alleviate any concerns others may share with you and to adjust your practice slightly if deemed necessary.

Glad to hear you've experienced great improvements!

[Michael]

No biggie. I know you're busy with the little one.

Thanks.  Yes, you're certainly right about that!    I don't ever remember my daughter being so time/energy intensive! 
Slow response again, sorry.  I keep losing track of threads.  Do you know if there's an option to list all of the threads one is currently active in or recently posted in?  I have to rely on the option at the top 'show new replies to your posts' but if I then open one but don't have time to respond immediately it disappears never to be seen again!

Yeah, I've had a couple hiccups in the process since then but it's still affordable. The cheaper vendor gave me grainfed meat for the third time so I cut them off cold.

What?!  You must've been somewhat annoyed about that!  How did you realise it was grainfed?  Extremely fortunate that you discovered it early on.

Oh, and I cut salt out of my diet almost completely. I sprinkle a bit on the seafood I eat but that only once every week or two. I've had leaps and bounds in progress since cutting out the salt.

Really?  That's interesting Dan.  I'd certainly be really interested in any effects you notice from this as it's something I'm considering doing myself.
What particular progress do you chalk up to cutting salt already?

The gut is not completely healed IMO but is well on it's way to being so....As long as I stay the course and don't gorge on more carbs I see things resolving in a couple years which is fine by me.

Glad to hear that Dan.  You strike me as someone who has the resolution and conviction to stay the course without too many carbs incidents.  I hope you're right on the timescales.  Whichever is the case, you can be sure it will be a journey of gradual improvement towards resolution as you're already experiencing so it's all positive!

[djr_81]

Thanks.  Yes, you're certainly right about that!    I don't ever remember my daughter being so time/energy intensive! 
Slow response again, sorry.  I keep losing track of threads.  Do you know if there's an option to list all of the threads one is currently active in or recently posted in?  I have to rely on the option at the top 'show new replies to your posts' but if I then open one but don't have time to respond immediately it disappears never to be seen again!

Not a clue. I read everything that has a "new" marker.

What?!  You must've been somewhat annoyed about that!  How did you realise it was grainfed?  Extremely fortunate that you discovered it early on.

I get slight symptoms as soon as I ingest grainfed meats. I had been buying from a semi-supermarket and knew the butchers well. They had one or two local farmers they bought grass-finished meats from but did have the occasional week that neither farmer had meat available so they'd buy from other farmers but obviously some farmers are less scrupulous than others. The supermarket didn't intentionally do anything but I had to guarantee future orders are 100%. The guy I buy from now is fantastic and I'm happy to give him all my business even if it does cost a bit more.

Really?  That's interesting Dan.  I'd certainly be really interested in any effects you notice from this as it's something I'm considering doing myself.
What particular progress do you chalk up to cutting salt already?

Well, I had been adding a bit of salt as it seemed to help my Hypostatic Orthotension as well as helping with muscle cramps in my legs (waking me up at night occasionally). Over time though I began having cramps again so took the salt away and they've begun diminishing. I also found that my energy levels went up, my attention is better, and best of all my hands which had become cold frequently stopped doing so.

Glad to hear that Dan.  You strike me as someone who has the resolution and conviction to stay the course without too many carbs incidents.  I hope you're right on the timescales.  Whichever is the case, you can be sure it will be a journey of gradual improvement towards resolution as you're already experiencing so it's all positive!

Thanks Michael. I just think of carbohydrates as another thing on my list of foods which hurt me (mainly my diagnosed food allergies on this list but other things as well which I've discovered don't play well with my body). To be honest I really have no desire 99% of the time to eat them anyways. The only things that get to me are some of the fruits at the farmer's market or out in the woods but it's not hard for me to abstain as I know the slippery slope it is for me.

[Michael]

Not a clue. I read everything that has a "new" marker.

I wonder if I should get some tips on using the forum from gs.  I've been a member for 2 years and have never ventured far from the couple of simple ways of using it that I know! 

I get slight symptoms as soon as I ingest grainfed meats.

Really?!  It's good that you're aware of such sensititivity.  In this case, a very useful tool to avoid being fooled by some of the slightly dishonest farmers.

The guy I buy from now is fantastic and I'm happy to give him all my business even if it does cost a bit more.

Yes, it's certainly worth the extra cost upon discovering a source that one is particularly happy with.  With supplies always unreliable, I use 3 otherwise fantastic suppliers but am always on the lookout for new potential suppliers as I've learned my lesson in the past of being unprepared for the sudden loss of a supply.

Well, I had been adding a bit of salt as it seemed to help my Hypostatic Orthotension as well as helping with muscle cramps in my legs (waking me up at night occasionally). Over time though I began having cramps again so took the salt away and they've begun diminishing. I also found that my energy levels went up, my attention is better, and best of all my hands which had become cold frequently stopped doing so.

That's useful to know, Dan, thanks.  I'm glad that you've noticed such significant improvements already.

it's not hard for me to abstain as I know the slippery slope it is for me.

A good attitude to have.