Author Topic: Should I do this?  (Read 20618 times)

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Offline Sherri

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Should I do this?
« on: April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 am »
Hello to you all.  I'm new to this forum.

A few weeks ago, I decided to go zero carb because I'm hoping to get rid of some health problems.  I found a good site that explained so much and I devoured it all, and then tried to join their forum.

I was refused.  The reason given was that I'm allergic to some meats and that this diet wouldn't be do-able for me.  Also, the comment was made that they aren't there to talk me into doing the diet and aren't open for debate on scientific data.  I'm confused about that one, since I've been convinced for several weeks that going zero carb is the best thing anyone can do.  I'm not even sure if my application was read through.  Maybe the meat allergies was the main show stopper.

Anyway, I felt I could do it eating the two meats I'm not allergic to:  turkey and fish.

Someone very kindly gave me the recipe for chicken pemmican made with coconut oil that I could switch for turkey meat instead, in order to get the right ratio of protein to fats.  Someone else suggested I find rendered turkey fat and use that instead of the coconut oil, and I thought that was a great idea, too.

Someone else gave me the idea of cooking a whole turkey, making an all meat 'gravy' out of all the 'innards' by dehydrating them, blending them to dry powder and put into turkey broth and turkey fat, and eating a little of the gravy every time I ate some of the meat to add more nutrients.

Someone else gave me the idea of eating sardines because I would get bones and all the rest, and eating all of the fish whenever I could get whole fish.

I got so many great ideas for my limited circumstance that I was greatly encouraged and excited to do this.  I've been hoping I can find something that heals a lot of my ailments, the food allergies especially.  After a few years, I was hoping beef would be possible for me again.

But now, I'm a bit deflated.  I am not experienced at this, and someone very experienced, who's posts I've admired very much for their knowledge, is telling me I probably can't do it.

Should I try it, or is limiting myself to two meats not going to work?

I would greatly appreciate opinions.  Its a big thing to make this decision and ask my family to support it, if it is a failure from the start.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2010, 12:19:00 pm »
    I never heard of an all turkey and fish diet.  I'm not a ZCer anyway.  If you eat the innards, it may work.  Why cook?  Why coconut rather than animal?  I wish you best of health.

    Btw, do I know you by chance? 

Anyway, I felt I could do it eating the two meats I'm not allergic to:  turkey and fish.

Someone very kindly gave me the recipe for chicken pemmican made with coconut oil that I could switch for turkey meat instead, in order to get the right ratio of protein to fats.  Someone else suggested I find rendered turkey fat and use that instead of the coconut oil, and I thought that was a great idea, too.

Someone else gave me the idea of cooking a whole turkey, making an all meat 'gravy' out of all the 'innards' by dehydrating them, blending them to dry powder and put into turkey broth and turkey fat, and eating a little of the gravy every time I ate some of the meat to add more nutrients.

Someone else gave me the idea of eating sardines because I would get bones and all the rest, and eating all of the fish whenever I could get whole fish.

Should I try it, or is limiting myself to two meats not going to work?
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Offline Sherri

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2010, 12:29:00 pm »
Hi, RawZi,

No, I don't think I know you.  I'm new to this forum, and don't usually have a ton of time to write on forums.  I'm more of the silent type, unless I really feel like I have good advice to offer.  Since I'm new to this and have only been reading for a few weeks, I don't really feel qualified to offer advice.

The reason for the coconut oil is because turkey is a low fat meat and to get the fat up to the right ratio, I would need to get it from something else.  I'd rather use real turkey fat.  Where I live, there are no butchers who chop turkey, so there wouldn't be fat I could buy from them.  I've found two places online who advertise having rendered turkey fat; Hormel and Henningsen Foods, but they only sell it to restaurants and commercial businesses for making broths and soups.  So, coconut oil is just to tide me through until I can find a supply of turkey fat.  

I would need to add more fat to compensate for the low fat fish, too.  

As far as cooking, I dehydrate more than actual cooking.  The only recipes I've found for pemmican requires dehydrating.    I'm open to any suggestions, though.

Thank you for your well wishes.  I hope your food choices are going well for you.

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« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 12:34:10 pm by Sherri »

Offline wodgina

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 12:37:56 pm »
Sounds like you will struggle with turkey and fish, why not join the Dirty Carnivore forum? They cook their meat use recipes.

Red meat allergy is very rare. I've heard of people in a part of Sydney, Australia developing it after tick bites which are endemic to the area.
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Offline Sherri

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2010, 12:59:24 pm »
Hello, wodgina,

Yes, I only know of one other person with a beef allergy.  I am allergic to pork, beef, chicken, shellfish and most saltwater fish.  I can eat turkey, some saltwater and most all freshwater fish.

With all the meats except pork, if feels like the inside skin of my stomach, and later, my intestines are burning.  When I accidentally get any of those meats, I do a saltwater cleanse the next morning that pushes everything through my intestines, and the salt helps it to heal, so I don't go through days of burning.

With pork, I go into tachycardia, and my heartbeat goes too fast and irregular.  I usually end up in a hospital.  I feel that maybe one day the other allergies might go away, because with other food allergies, they are not always for life. Plus, I keep reading how people are restoring their health with a totally meat diet, and had a few hopes I could get rid of at least one allergy.  I can't eat grains, onions, and tomatoes, either.

With pork, though, I'll never try eating it again to find out.  I'll just do without it.  With the other meats, I'll still try them out once a year and hope.  It hurts, but it isn't life threatening.

I was told it is usually a protein in a food that causes a reaction. My allergy tests were done with proteins, and several different types of tests were used and then compared.  However, I once got some pork lard mixed in refried beans and ended up in the hospital, so apparently even the fat bothers me.  I had gotten accustomed to buying refried beans with olive oil, the very few times I ate beans over the previous year, and didn't realize it was ever made with pork lard.

I must research the tick idea.  Thanks for passing it along.  Do you know if there was a cure for that particular tick bite?  I am in America, in Colorado, but we definitely do have ticks now and then, though not like Arkansas where I grew up.  We got ticks there everytime we went camping, which was all summer, every summer!

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2010, 01:12:55 pm »
any idea what about turkey and salmon that you are not allergic to them?

i think you are the first person i've 'met' with more sensitivities than i have.

allergic to eggs too?

have you ever tried wild game?  same allergic reactions?

Offline Sherri

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2010, 01:21:25 pm »
I have no idea why I can eat turkey and fish.  It doesn't make sense to be allergic to chicken and not turkey, but none of it really makes sense.

As far as eggs, I'm allergic to the yolk, but not the egg white, which is backward, because more people are allergic to the whites than the yolks.  But, perhaps that goes along with being allergic to chicken.

I've been tempted to eat buffalo, but I've heard most buffalo in the US have been bread with cows.  I might give it a try, anyway.  I can also get duck here, too, in restaurants, but not grocery stores.  Deer is illegal to sell here, so I'd need to find someone who hunts.  I'd like to give it all a try, anyway.

I think I'd still need to find a way to add fats to them since wild game is very lean, but it would be nice to taste something besides turkey and fish.  I might cave in to the butter and coconut oil, even though I wanted to keep this pure meat.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2010, 01:34:00 pm »
well, i don't tolerate much, but i do very well with bison/buffalo even when beef was a problem... no idea why...

Offline Sherri

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2010, 01:36:01 pm »
Ioanna, are you allergic to any other meats?  It sounds like beef isn't a problem for you anymore?  Did it go away after time?  Sorry to ask so many question.  I'm feeling nosy, now.


A friend once suggested to me that he felt I should eat things native to America, since I am of Native American descent.  (Though my people drifted off from the Trail of Tears and settled in Arkansas and were never on a reservation.)  He seemed to think that since cows, chickens and domesticated pigs weren't here 500 years ago, I shouldn't eat them anyway, and he has also encouraged me to try wild game.  Turkey is native to America, as well as fish.

I'm not sure I believe his reasoning, though.  



Offline Sherri

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2010, 01:37:35 pm »
I think I'll give buffalo a try, now, since you could do it even with a beef problem.  I would only burn, anyway.  I am leery of getting something that affects me like pork, so it makes me a weenie baby when it comes to trying something new.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2010, 01:47:53 pm »
.... so it makes me a weenie baby when it comes to trying something new.

ha, sounds like me!... I'm afraid to try new things because if they don't work I am with terrible abdominal pains at best

maybe you should be sure that your buffalo/bison is 100% grass-fed, if possible? sometimes i have only access to grain-finished and i have done fine with that though.

also, fwiw, aging the meat works wonders for me, but dehydrating (even at 'raw' temps) was a disaster!

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2010, 01:58:16 pm »
Ioanna, are you allergic to any other meats?  It sounds like beef isn't a problem for you anymore?  Did it go away after time?  Sorry to ask so many question.  I'm feeling nosy, now.

i don't know that i'm allergic to meat?... i haven't had the inclination to try chicken, turkey, or pork raw.  4 months ago at the holidays i ate a couple of bites of cooked chicken breast (plain, 'organic') ... i had a stomach ache and then threw it up.. then i was mad at myself because it takes at least a week for my stomach to calm down again.

beef has not been a problem at all since i started aging it first.  now it's perfect!

feel free to ask away!  happy to help if i can :)


A friend once suggested to me that he felt I should eat things native to America, since I am of Native American descent.  (Though my people drifted off from the Trail of Tears and settled in Arkansas and were never on a reservation.)  He seemed to think that since cows, chickens and domesticated pigs weren't here 500 years ago, I shouldn't eat them anyway, and he has also encouraged me to try wild game.  Turkey is native to America, as well as fish.

I'm not sure I believe his reasoning, though. 


could be... i'm italian/greek, but haven't had success with seafood yet... then again, i don't have access to anything fresh either so maybe that's the problem?

Offline RawZi

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2010, 02:06:41 pm »
    I have a problem with beef too, but buffalo is fine.

    Like Ioanna, aging the meat can make it better for me.

    I was thinking, what about duck fat and goose fat?  How about turkey eggs or quail eggs?
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Offline kurite

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2010, 02:46:37 pm »
also, fwiw, aging the meat works wonders for me, but dehydrating (even at 'raw' temps) was a disaster!
What happend when you dehydrated the meat?
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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2010, 06:59:15 pm »
Hello Sherri and welcome. :)
I'm sure with everyone's input we'll find a working diet for you that will help you regain your health.

I too have many food allergies. This had led me to a raw-carnivore diet which has suited me fine. I have problems (have never been tested I just have stomach pain/bloating/gas/mucus in my stools) with a couple of meats (lamb, bison, and chicken) but I do great with Beef and Deer. I also eat goat occasionally but I do notice slight problems if I overdo this so I make it a treat.
The reason I have found for my issues with commercial meats is their diet. I have allergies to corn and to many grains and this is the diet of pretty much all meat you can buy at a supermarket. I can tell in minutes if an animal was fed grains just by my body's reactions to it (immediate sore throat, runny nose, etc.). Grass-fed and grass-finished beef does not have this effect on me. Wild game (wild deer at this point) doesn't eat commercial grains as the base of it's diet (they might eat it here or there if they find some outside) so doesn't effect me either.
Have you ever tried truly grass-fed and grass-finished meats to see if they give you the same reaction? The same with wild deer meat (watch out; they do occasionally sell farmed deer)?

May I ask why you feel the need/desire to eat just meat (the specific health problems)? Do you have problems with vegetation? I'm allergic to most fruits and veggies hence why I'm carnivorous.
The reason I ask is that when one is eating carnivore a large percentage of one's dietary calories are from fat. The two proteins you know you do well with tend to run very lean which will make it harder to eat carnivorously as you've no doubt come across. It won't be impossible it'll just take some creativity. ;)

Which forum did you try to join and got rejected from? I have a hard time believing anyone would be that insensitive to someone else in need but if it's who I think it is it doesn't surprise me.

Lastly, since no one touched on it; Are you ok with the idea of raw food, meat/fat especially, which we adhere to on this site? My opinion is that a cooked carnivorous diet, while possible in the short-term, will be damaging in the long term. Raw-carnivorous, with an emphasis on quality fat (and meat) as well as a variety of organs, is much more sustainable.

Offline ForTheHunt

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2010, 07:17:53 pm »
I don't think it's even possible to be allergic to raw meat or raw fruit/veg for that matter..

Sounds like you have chrons disease and when you eat meat and the strong stomach acids come to break it down, your gut feels the burn probably because you have stomach sores or something from chrons. Thats my theory atleast
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Offline michaelwh

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2010, 07:21:29 pm »
Have you tried eating fresh raw meat? Sometimes an allergy is only towards the cooked/processed form of a food. (But not always!)

Did you have these allergies since birth? Or did you develop them later on in life? That might give a clue to where they came from.

I think that the coconut oil would be a good idea for you, because it'll partially replace the saturated fat that normally comes from red meat on a carnivorous diet. (Turkey and fish are both low in saturated fat relative to red meat).

In one of Aajonus' workshops, someone had an allergy to raw onions. Aajonus suggested blending the onions with raw unsalted cheese, and maybe also something else (I forget what it was). I know that many people here are skeptical of Aajonus, but it won't hurt to ask him for advice. There's an upcoming radio interview with him (http://wewant2live.blogspot.com/), so you could ask him there.

Offline miles

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2010, 07:40:29 pm »
No person should be 'allergic' to good fresh raw meat alongside fat. You shouldn't be any exception. All you need to do is to take it slowly and let your body, including your digestive system, heal. You can just have smaller amounts of the raw meat/fat at first, and without the things which are really causing the problems you will soon be able to tolerate more and more.

As long as you've never had any organs removed..?
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djr_81

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2010, 07:49:50 pm »
I don't think it's even possible to be allergic to raw meat or raw fruit/veg for that matter..
You should do a bit more reading up on the subject. Not only is it possible it's getting more common. ;)

I think that the coconut oil would be a good idea for you, because it'll partially replace the saturated fat that normally comes from red meat on a carnivorous diet. (Turkey and fish are both low in saturated fat relative to red meat).
I've got concerns about using coconut oil in any diet but especially as the basis of your calories.
First, coconut oil and cream seem to give a large percentage of us on this board stomach distress in one way or another. As our diets are low in toxic intake we're a good sounding board for good vs. bad foods.
Second, coconut is a pretty common allergen so if she's developed allergies to other things it's somewhat likely she'll have or get problems with coconut.
Third, commercially available coconut oil is generally heated.

No person should be 'allergic' to good fresh raw meat alongside fat. You shouldn't be any exception. All you need to do is to take it slowly and let your body, including your digestive system, heal. You can just have smaller amounts of the raw meat/fat at first, and without the things which are really causing the problems you will soon be able to tolerate more and more.

As long as you've never had any organs removed..?
Allergies are not that simple. Once your body decides a protein string, etc. is a foreign invader it will attack it each time it sees it. Yes, allergies do resolve themselves sometimes, typically on a 7 year cycle, but it's almost always childhood allergies disappearing as you transition into adulthood.
If a leaky gut is exacerbating the circumstances that can be healed over time but sometimes the body has decided it won't stand for X, Y, or Z and it doesn't go away.
Thankfully Sherri's symptoms don't sound too overwhelming (hey, no anaphylaxis) so hopefully with a healing diet she'll recover most, if not all, of the way.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 07:55:26 pm by djr_81 »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2010, 10:12:12 pm »
I don't think it's even possible to be allergic to raw meat or raw fruit/veg for that matter..

  It is possible. Some people who are hypersensitive to grains(coeliacs etc.) can get reactions from raw grainfed meats.
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Offline Ioanna

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2010, 10:29:31 pm »
I've got concerns about using coconut oil in any diet but especially as the basis of your calories.
First, coconut oil and cream seem to give a large percentage of us on this board stomach distress in one way or another. As our diets are low in toxic intake we're a good sounding board for good vs. bad foods.
Second, coconut is a pretty common allergen so if she's developed allergies to other things it's somewhat likely she'll have or get problems with coconut.
Third, commercially available coconut oil is generally heated.

I agree... I've not done well with it even in small amounts.


No person should be 'allergic' to good fresh raw meat alongside fat. You shouldn't be any exception.

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Offline Hans89

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2010, 11:12:13 pm »
He's right... nobody should be allergic to that... if I had my say, nobody would be allergic to anything  haha

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2010, 11:46:46 pm »
Dr. Kurt Harris suggested that drying meats like beef will reduce their allergenic potential. To get enough fat on ZC with just turkey and fish for meats you will probably have to include plant fats like coconut oil, avocado oil, etc.
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Offline Sherri

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2010, 11:57:55 pm »
Wow, so many replies since I went to bed last night!

Ioanna:

I'll try aging the meat and see how it goes.  In Colorado, it is fairly easy to find completely grass fed bison and beef, so I'll begin with that.  Do you know what about dehydrating the meat bothers you?  Maybe just the lack of water makes it harder to digest?

I really do doubt the theory of Native Americans needing to only eat things native to America because if it were true, there would be a lot of Native Americans allergic to those European meats, too, and I haven't heard of any of them being in that situation.

RawZi:

Aging meat helped you as well?  I definitely must try it.  As far as the fats, I had much rather get animal fats to use.  I haven't found a way to get those fats around where I live, but I haven't really looked, either.  I assumed since deer was illegal to sell, I probably couldn't find any other wild meats and fats to buy.  **Note**  I just did a little research and apparently wild game sales restrictions are state by state, so perhaps I can find it in some states.  I didn't know that.

djr_81:

Before I knew the meat allergies were making me so sick, and I was still eating it, I probably got a 50/50 percent of grass to grain fed.  Whole foods is in the next town over, in Boulder, so I would get my grass fed meats there and from an organic farm, but during the holes between, I would get them from a grocery store.  I'm going to try some grass fed aged beef to see what happens.

My meat-only idea sort of began over time.  I haven't eaten starchy foods in years because of an insulin issue, and I've never eaten sweets. I  just don't have the appetite for them, nor do I like the way they make me feel.  As I was cutting more and more out, a friend told me I was basically doing Atkins induction, so I read up on that and did it for about two weeks.

I started cutting out even more carbs and felt better, but I was still using butter and coconut oil for the fats because I couldn't get enough fats from the meat.  

At that point, everyone was telling me how unhealthy this was for me, and my extended family disapproved very much and let me know I was setting a bad example for my kids, but how can something that makes you feel so much better be unhealthy?

Then I started wondering if anyone can live on meat-only.  Until I googled it a few weeks ago, I had never heard of the concept in any context except it being unhealthy.  I was very surprised to find so many people doing it.  

Almost everything I read was from www.zeroinginonhealth.com, and there were so many stories of health improvement.  Some of the people there eat pemmican only, and I had intended to do that for the first month using turkey, but didn't know if turkey would work or not.  I had hoped to join the forum to ask advice of the experienced people.

This is the answer I received:

"Hi, Sherri.  Thanks for your responses.

From reading your answers, it's quite clear that you do not fit our qualifications for membership in our forum.  The fact that you have allergies to the very meats that we eat makes this even more difficult.  I realize you have questions and I'm sure they are very good questions but this is not a road that we wish to travel.  

ZC is not something that we wish to talk you into.  ZC is something that people are encouraged to try and once their health improves, ZC sells itself.  We're not in the business of converting others through scientific banter and the like.  Sure, we do examine studies and look at different sources, but it's not so much for the purpose of convincing and converting others.  We offer a simple message and encourage others to try it.  If it works, then well and we like to continue that journey with the person.  If not, we encourage them to move on with our best wishes.

So from what you've written, this would not work.  I wish you well working out your health issues and you're certainly encouraged to read as a guest and hopefully you can find many of the answers to your questions because I'm sure they've been asked and answered.

Best regards,"


I'm not sure why he thought he'd need to talk me into it or that I was wanting to debate anything.  I had already decided to do it, but after reading the letter, I had doubts of whether it would be possible at all.  Maybe some people have a fear of people arguing with them and become paranoid about it?  I went over my application several times to see exactly what sentence gave him the idea I wanted to argue theories, but couldn't find anything.

I am okay with eating raw meat, but i must admit I didn't know you COULD safely eat raw meat until yesterday.  When I read "Raw Paleo" I thought it meant something like 'strict' or "down-n-dirty dedicated". I didn't know you literally meant raw until after I had posted and read a few other posts. (Okay, I'm an idiot)

I just want to be healthy.  If raw does it, I'm all for it.  I need to find out how to safely do it.  I also need to solve my fat problem, but if I can eat aged beef or buffalo, it would be solved.

I do love the organ meats.  My father always made us eat all the parts of the animals he killed, but it was cooked.  

ForTheHunt:

I only know what the allergy tests showed.  My blood reacts to it, and supposedly it was all grass fed meats in order to keep it as pure as possible.  When I developed whole body shakes, we thought I might have developed early Parkinsons and paid $20,000 to see a doctor in New York. I had read a book of his and felt he was more up to date on research than all the other quack traditional doctors I had been seeing.  So, I took his word on having the allergies, and when I stopped eating the meats, I stopped with the stomach burning, the cerebral swelling and the shakes after a few months.  Now, if I accidentally get some, it isn't enough to cause the brain swelling or the shakes; I need to eat those meats over time to get to that point.

I don't know a lot about chrons.  I'll check into it, though.  I never discount anything.




Offline Sherri

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Re: Should I do this?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2010, 12:14:38 am »
I've only tried straight coconut oil once, and it was the virgin supposedly most organic you can get.  A friend told me to make it simple and take a tablespoon out of the jar.  I only did it once, and it gave me indigestion.  (I think I need to fire all my friends, don't I?)  Up until then, I had just used maybe a teaspoon here and there for cooking.

HOWEVER, I only did it once and need to try it again to see for sure.  I have a bad habit of wanting things to work out, or knowing for sure this next new thing is going to make me well, and I put blinders on.  I'm working on that bad habit.

PaleoPhil, does drying meats predigest it a little?  I haven't tried dried meats, but am willing to try them.  The pemmican recipe someone sent me used dehydrated raw meat as the protein part.

 

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