Calcium

[Sully]

My moms keeps on asking how will someone get calcium and vitamin C on a carnivorous diet. Someone please explain even if it has been discussed already. So I can show her the post.

[TylerDurden]

The idea that you need lots of calcium to make strong bones is a myth put out by the Dairy industry.  In fact, one needs other elements as well such as magnesium, phosphorus and vitamin D, among others. If you consume too much calcium(which can happen via dairy-consumption or if you take calcium-supplements), then magnesium-uptake into the body gets blocked, thus leading to magnesium-deficiency, and magnesium is an essential element re human health.

There's also a famous international study showing that those countries with the highest level of dairy-consumption(eg:- Finland) also had the highest rates of osteoporosis. Vegetarians also like to point to another study that showed that the Bantu women of Africa had strong bones, despite only eating very small amounts of calcium in their diet.

Anyway, you don't need to worry, if you're eating health grassfed meats etc. you're getting enough calcium.

Vitamin C is already present in raw meats. It's cooking that destroys vitamin C. Mind you, zero-carbers like the Inuit would also eat things like raw adrenals, which happen to contain lots of vitamin C. My own view, though, is not to do such an extreme diet unless you're suffering from some specific carb-related problem such as candida.  My own trials with zero-carb were not successful, and it was extremely difficult to maintain for long periods as I would have needed to ensure ALWAYS having enough 100% grassfed fat to hand etc.

[letifer]

I'm not actually convinced that we should be dismissive of calcium needs. I have found supplementing my diet with calcluim through french clay and ground egg shells has had a wide number of beneifits including dental health (stronger, whiter, teeth, firmer jaw bone). Soils are more defienct today than they would have been during paleo time, as well as the fact that enviromental toxcity may increase/decrease the needs for certain nutrients. The mg/ca ratio in meat is 5:1. Most information you find will recommend diest have any where from 4:1 to 1:1 ca/mg (yes, this is 'conventional' recommendations. I have recently gone VLC and virtually all the side effects of doing so were ameliorated for me when adding clay and egg shells. When I had tried to do the same a couple months ago I had to stop after 2 weeks because the side effects were too bad.

While there are numerous benefits to the clay in it's own right, I still found I need the extra calcium. Also, it's important to remember that some nutrients can be in greater need due to deficiency or conditional factors. Low stomach acid (which I defiantly have) prevents the proper absorption of calcium, among other things.

edit: I thought the last post was from July 2009, not 2008. Didn't mean to revive anything dead.

[invisible]

One year later...what's your mum's reaction to the diet now Sully?

[cherimoya_kid]

I supplement with bone meal and pascalite clay.  The pascalite is actually 3:1 mag to cal.  I definitely notice that my teeth feel much less sore when I am eating both of those supplements.  I also find that both of them have the ability to keep me much more calm.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, I used to work in a supplement store and minerals and fish oil seemed to work rather well for both my customers and myself, whereas the vitamins didn't seem to do squat for most people. Ironically, not many people tried the minerals because they didn't get nearly as much advertising and hype as some of the junk we sold. But when they did, they tended to be glad they did.

Luckily, my need for minerals has been dropping dramatically since I went carnivorous, and raw meat seems to give me an even bigger mineral boost.

[goodsamaritan]

Try looking at Lex's journal.
He has his bone scan posted at the first post.

Also the Cure Tooth Decay book and all those stories about remineralization of teeth seems to come from high amounts of raw meat in the diet.

[PaleoPhil]

Yeah, and Weston Price pointed to vitamin D3 and vitamin K2 as being part of the reason for tooth mineralization.

Oops, those are vitamins I forgot to mention that people DO seem to get benefits from, such as vitamin D3 from cod liver oil. I guess it doesn't pay to overgeneralize without thinking it through first. I also did seem to get some benefit from vitamin K when I used to get easy bruising (I forgot about that, sorry--and for whatever reason, almost no one ever bought vitamin K other than me--even if I mentioned that it's supposed to be good for easy bruising and overly thin blood--maybe people are afraid of overdoing it and getting a blood clot or heart attack?), though going low carb Paleo helped more than anything. The most effective vitamins do seem come from animal sources, though.

I'm not quite as forgetful as I was when I was a carb addict, but I still am pretty forgetful. So make sure to double-check what I say before trying it yourself. As a matter of fact, my policy is to double check what anyone says before I act on it.

[The Barbarian]

I'm using celtic sea salt. It has calcium magnesium potasium and all the other important minerals in a ratio very similar to humans optimum ratios  and it makes the raw meat taste better.

It doesn't cause bloating like refined table salt (which is toxic because it is mineral unbalanced from the processing) It actually reverses water retention if you are bloated or retaining water because it has the minerals balanced properly.

[Michael]

I, for one, am very glad that you revived this old discussion letifer as I think it is a critical subject for all of us experimenting or living on varying forms of paleodiet.

I also think that Lex's recent post submitting the results of his Bone Mineral Density scan, as mentioned by gs, makes for compelling evidence that the Ca/Mg demands of accepted nutritional thought - and feared by many of us - are perhaps unsubstantiated after all.  Perhaps, as has been suggested, those demands are closely linked with consumption of inappropriate foods such as dairy and anti-nutrient containing fruit/veg?

Like you Barbarian, I use celtic sea salt liberally with my raw meats and have done so throughout the many years of eating this way.  I've done this with the belief that it provides vital trace minerals, improves digestion by helping in the formation of hydrochloric acid and helps with my salt loss (caused by adrenal problems).  I certainly seem to feel better when using it.

I have noted, however, that Lex does NOT use salt and I wonder about the implications of this with regard to his mineral levels.  His results and progress hint that perhaps we should NOT be using salt irrespective of the claims of how good it is for us?

For the record, I also use small supplemental amounts of Blue Ice raw fermented cod liver oil for my Vit D levels along with my raw diet of grass-fed meat, fat, liver/heart, and miniscule amounts of veg for flavouring.  Over the last few years I do seem to have developed badly receding gums which, I believe, suggests decreasing bone density in my case.  Is this related to the salt intake or insufficient Ca/Mg?  I, too, have sometimes looked towards ground egg shell for Ca by combining it with lemon juice to form highly absorbable calcium citrate.  I haven't taken this for a long while now but am contemplating trying it again.

It's all very confusing and is very much a subject I would like to have a full grasp of the facts on!

[TylerDurden]

In my case, pre-raw diet, dairy was the main reason for my decaying teeth. I also experienced severely weakened teeth during my raw, zero-carb trials. Who knows, maybe it's a genetic thing - perhaps I'm more genetically in line with Cordain's theory, while Lex has some hidden Inuit-like ancestors, somewhere in his lineage!

[cherimoya_kid]

I recommend bone meal and healing clays for all tooth problems.

[PaleoPhil]

In my case, pre-raw diet, dairy was the main reason for my decaying teeth. I also experienced severely weakened teeth during my raw, zero-carb trials. Who knows, maybe it's a genetic thing - perhaps I'm more genetically in line with Cordain's theory, while Lex has some hidden Inuit-like ancestors, somewhere in his lineage!

This is clearly one of the more puzzling aspects of this diet--how the dental health of you and I think one or two other people here declined dramatically on ZC, whereas Lex's and mine dramatically improved. Do you have any idea what the mechanism is behind teeth rotting on a ZC diet? Is it deficiency in an important enzyme? Do glandular problems exacerbate dental problems?

[invisible]

perhaps due to compromised digestion from previous diets, despite meat containing all the needed nutrients some people can only assimilate a percentage of the nutrients in their food so might lack in the nutrients meat has in adequate - yet small amounts.

[William]

perhaps due to compromised digestion from previous diets, despite meat containing all the needed nutrients some people can only assimilate a percentage of the nutrients in their food so might lack in the nutrients meat has in adequate - yet small amounts.

There has been speculation that this is because we need competent micro-organisms in our gut to digest all that meat offers, and it takes both time after previous diets and an absence of preservatives/microbe killers.

[The Barbarian]

My wife told me my gums look much better already  and that's after only 3 weeks on zc.

I'm mostly scandinavian with a little native american blood

I think the native american part of my genetics makes my very insulin resistant. This zero carb diet is very healing for me.

[letifer]

This is clearly one of the more puzzling aspects of this diet--how the dental health of you and I think one or two other people here declined dramatically on ZC, whereas Lex's and mine dramatically improved. Do you have any idea what the mechanism is behind teeth rotting on a ZC diet? Is it deficiency in an important enzyme? Do glandular problems exacerbate dental problems?

Count me among those who experienced dental trouble with VLC. I did pick up a small cavity or two my first try at it. Although for the record I did eat a handful of nuts now and then because I was having trouble getting my caloric intake high enough. The phtyic acid may have done me in there.

I've been trying to figure out as well what it is that may be at work. I guess one theory could be bacterial die-off that may temporarily affect ones nutritional needs. Many alternative health sites will state that candida binds to heavy metals in your body, and if there is wide scale die-off these metals will be realesed in your body. My first experiment with VLC made my oral thrush much worse, this time around it isn't as bad, but my tongue is still not pink. On the theory of bacterial die-off I think there may be something to it as I have been observing whitish mucus like threads hanging off of my BMs the past 2 weeks. Hopefully it's a positive sign. Theoretically it could be undigested egg whites, but I've never seen them before and since I am taking HCL the rest of my BM is well digested.

There is also the acid/alkaline theory where calcium is used up to neutralize the acidity caused by meat eating.. but that doesn't seem to hold much weight.

Another thing to consider is the water we are drinking and whether or not it contains calcium. Also equally important to consider is whether or not it contains fluoride as fluoride will bind to calcium. Perhaps those doing better on ZC are drinking mineral rich fluoride-free water? I try to avoid drinking water during or right before meals because of low stomach acid issues, but find it hard not to glup down water 30-90 minutes after a meal.

On the topic of salt I have not been using very much at all (maybe a pinch or two a week) the past month while when I started raw-paleo I used much more. I've never been a big salt eater and didn't use much pre-paleo. Whether this may cause some sort of salt deficiency (again, needs may be conditionally higher or lower)  or not has been on my mind. Sometimes I feel like salt helps and other times that I feel better without it.

[TylerDurden]

This is clearly one of the more puzzling aspects of this diet--how the dental health of you and I think one or two other people here declined dramatically on ZC, whereas Lex's and mine dramatically improved. Do you have any idea what the mechanism is behind teeth rotting on a ZC diet? Is it deficiency in an important enzyme? Do glandular problems exacerbate dental problems?

There was a suggestion made in previous years that fasting(or ketosis which is similiar, as I recall) puts a much  greater stress on the thyroid(and possibly the adrenals). But that doesn't explain how my teeth deteriorated so fast, IMO(plus I'd already healed myself of the adrenal-related issues just before the 1st RZC trial, and well before the ensuing RZC trials).

Anyway, it was as though my teeth had become as weak as in the days when I still consumed raw dairy products, but the effect happened much faster, of course. My guess is that, like with the dairy, I had some sort of magnesium deficiency caused by going ZC, though I'm not sure how it could happen so fast. I can't believe there is an enzyme deficiency(unless going ZC requires specific genes as an absolute) and the notion of only partial digestion doesn't seem to apply. I mean, my digestion improved significantly over the years, and (raw) meat is easy to digest etc.

Re mineral-water:- I constantly drink alkaline mineral water here in London, only drinking non-chlorinated/non-fluoridated tapwater(coming from mountain-streams above) during the holidays. So that can't be a factor.

[wodgina]

I think people need to remember that people here who have had teeth problems with ZC only tried it for a few weeks. Its like trying RPD for a few weeks and feeling crappy...of course you'll feel like shit! 

[TylerDurden]

I think people need to remember that people here who have had teeth problems with ZC only tried it for a few weeks. Its like trying RPD for a few weeks and feeling crappy...of course you'll feel like shit!  

The fact is, though, that it became absolutely impossible to maintain the diet for longer than 5-6 weeks, without hospitalisation and worse. Transitioning to ZC had far more serious consequences than transitioning to raw, for example(and this applies to most people, judging from reports). I mean, when I first went all-raw, all that happened, at first, was 2-3 days of diarrhea(visits to the lavatory every 15 to 30 minutes, most of the time). After that, I had very occasional mild, short-term detoxes(once I gave up the raw dairy) but these were highly infrequent. By contrast, going RZC caused rapid, very severe deterioration after a set point, which continually got worse not better.

As regards Stefansson, his own claims are that the immediate transition should be relatively trouble-free and last only c.2-3 weeks.  While full, 100% adaptation would take longer, Stefansson clearly was of the opinion that the worst would be over by the 3 week stage.

[PaleoPhil]

...Anyway, it was as though my teeth had become as weak as in the days when I still consumed raw dairy products, but the effect happened much faster, of course. My guess is that, like with the dairy, I had some sort of magnesium deficiency caused by going ZC, though I'm not sure how it could happen so fast.

Raw grassfed ground beef and other meats contain magnesium that is more bioavailable than in plants (http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl), so if there was magnesium deficiency from ZC, that would lend credence to the aforementioned hypothesis that your gut may have been deficient in meat-eating bacteria (and heavy in plant-eating bacteria) and for some reason your flora didn't change over. You may have already been low in magnesium, which is common on the SAD and other diets high in milk, and therefore prone to further deficiency. Also, maybe you were lacking in whatever it is that prevents Lex and me from getting bone loss from an acidified diet? It's pure speculation, but these are the only explanations I can think of so far. The latter idea sounds more plausible to me, but leaves open the question of what is the missing ingredient?

[yon yonson]

i just bought a whole fresh chicken (killed yesterday and not frozen!) at the farmers market. i found it was very easy to eat parts of the leg bones. at the joints the bones are very soft and extremely easy to chew and eat. that's gotta be good for calcium right? also, it seems pretty obvious to me now but i had never thought of opening chicken bones to get the marrow. i guess i just thought there wouldn't be any because they're so small, but there was a good amount inside

[TylerDurden]

Raw grassfed ground beef and other meats contain magnesium that is more bioavailable than in plants (http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl), so if there was magnesium deficiency from ZC, that would lend credence to the aforementioned hypothesis that your gut may have been deficient in meat-eating bacteria (and heavy in plant-eating bacteria) and for some reason your flora didn't change over. You may have already been low in magnesium, which is common on the SAD and other diets high in milk, and therefore prone to further deficiency. Also, maybe you were lacking in whatever it is that prevents Lex and me from getting bone loss from an acidified diet? It's pure speculation, but these are the only explanations I can think of so far. The latter idea sounds more plausible to me, but leaves open the question of what is the missing ingredient?

I'd already been eating lots of magnesium-rich foods after quitting dairy(and I quit dairy c. 2.5 to 3 years before my first RZC trial, so I didn't have magnesium-deficiency prior to going RZC. The idea re plant-bacteria in the gut doesn't hold up as I was VLC for ages beforehand(and had started getting side-effects from raw fruit because my gut had actually switched away from plant-digesting bacteria to meat-digesting bacteria. Anyway, my point is that since my teeth deteriorated, presumably one of the elements required for good teeth, such as magnesium, might be somehow involved.

[PaleoPhil]

...my point is that since my teeth deteriorated, presumably one of the elements required for good teeth, such as magnesium, might be somehow involved.

Yeah, I know, but magnesium deficiency from eating apparently the same foods doesn't explain your opposite response to ZC from that of Lex and me. There must be at least one factor that differs between you and us. In other words, we still don't know why you got this deficiency in magnesium or some other nutrient that resulted in rotting teeth but we didn't.

If the foods we ate didn't differ appreciably, then the other factors that have been cited in magnesium deficiency include malabsorption, diarrhea, ulcerative colitis, physical stresses (such as cold stress, physical trauma, and surgery), over-exercise, and insufficient food intake, but I haven't seen any suggestion from you that any of these factors apply to you, so I'm still at a loss to explain the phenomenon.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help to newbie zero carbers who may be suffering similar symptoms.

[TylerDurden]

Yeah, I know, but magnesium deficiency from eating apparently the same foods doesn't explain your opposite response to ZC from that of Lex and me. There must be at least one factor that differs between you and us. In other words, we still don't know why you got this deficiency in magnesium or some other nutrient that resulted in rotting teeth but we didn't.

If the foods we ate didn't differ appreciably, then the other factors that have been cited in magnesium deficiency include malabsorption, diarrhea, ulcerative colitis, physical stresses (such as cold stress, physical trauma, and surgery), over-exercise, and insufficient food intake, but I haven't seen any suggestion from you that any of these factors apply to you, so I'm still at a loss to explain the phenomenon.

Actually, several symptoms of magnesium deficiency did apply to me:- fatigue, reduced exercise-levels. Then magnesium-deficiency causes hormonal imbalances resulting in increased anxiety, plus magnesium-deficiency causes weakness in the bones(and therefore ruins dental health) as well as causing abnormal heart-rhythm - all of which I had re rapid-beating heart etc.

I will concede that I was worse off in my dairy-phase pre-rawpalaeo, as I also had muscle-cramps and other magnesium-related issues. But that doesn't exlcude a less severe magnesium-deficiency. Who knows? Perhaps in some people, magnesium from plant foods is far better absorbed than magnesium in animal foods, not an issue unless ZC is involved.