How long does it take to clear excess protein from the blood?

[carnivorous]

About 5 weeks ago I started feeling good and energetic on my carnivorous diet (after about 5 months of mostly feeling down) and resumed my heavy athletic training, from 4 to 8 hours a day.  I felt great for a few days, upping my food intake to about 4-5 pounds of raw ground beef.  Soon I lost my energy, happiness and drive.  I started sleeping more, feeling irritable, etc.  I ate this much meat for about 7 days after stopping my training, suspecting that I just needed more fuel and I was somehow overtraining.

My muscles felt fine, my recovery was fine; this was not overtraining as I'd experienced before on high carb diets.  In retrospect, this switch was the feeling of being knocked out of ketosis and put back into a sugar burning mode. It took me quite some time to figure out that this was apparently due to protein overdose and the ability for it to knock one out of ketosis.  My diet never dropped below 70% calories from fat, and probably averaged ~75%- this was not rabbit starvation, at least not the way we know it.

It has been 2 weeks now that I've 99% avoided any protein and stuck to tallow exclusively.  I've even fasted 4 days with no food whatsoever and still not returned to ketosis.  I'm going by the bubbles in my urine as a guide to my body still converting protein to glucose, and expect that when the bubbles clear ketosis will kick in.

So my question is...how long would an excess of protein take for the body to excrete?  I'm guessing I built up somewhere from 2500-4000g of excess protein, maybe even had some excess from previously.  Would there be any way to significantly speed the removal of this excess?  (I'm thinking of intense exercise, bruising, maybe even bloodletting?)

I'm starting to suspect excess protein is actually the cause of 99% of VLC/ZC'ers difficulties with energy/adaption.  Obviously most don't eat 4+lbs of meat daily, but I suspect it takes very little excess protein to stop ketosis in it's tracks and induce a constant high insulin state (VERY bad for all sorts of reasons.)

[TylerDurden]

Well, since almost no RPDers routinely  eat 4-5 lbs of raw meat a day, it's extremely unlikely that excess protein is the cause for most. In my own case, when I tried RZC, I made sure to include plenty of raw fats, so there must have been other reasons involved.

Perhaps exercise would improve things, not sure.

[ForTheHunt]

I think that ketosis is bullshit and is definitely  not the way to go.

I tried RZC with very high fat for a month and I felt like crap the whole time. My mind was especially effected by it, mood swings, brain fog, etc.

Now I eat a small amount of fruit when ever I feel a drop in blood sugar and I feel much better.

[carnivorous]

Actually both of your experiences are part of my theory.  I also feel much better when having a few carbs while having low energy trying to ZC.  What I'm proposing is that we, as individuals struggling and feeling like garbage most of the time on ZC diets, are extremely sensitive to excess protein and our bodies convert it immediately to glucose.  This would keep us from using ketones for fuel and instead trying to run on an EXTREMELY limited supply of glucose, thus the feeling like shit part.

I actually just typed a huge post about this on Dirty Carnivore, might just cross post it here in a minute.

[Paleo Donk]

I'm really glad you posted this, carnivorous, as I too am searching for this answer. From what I have found the liver can only handle around 400g of protein per day. And the ability to process this amount probably slows down considerably before it reaches this amount. I think it is likely that you slowly built up excess amino acids in your blood over the time period of being carnivorous.

It takes quite a bit of amino acids to get into hyperaminoacidosis. There is a poster by the name of redfulcrum, who did a very dangerous experiment getting around 1000g of protein per day and reached this state of amino acids very quickly within a couple weeks forcing him to the hospital. You might have just experienced something similar, except with a much, much slower build up.

I also feel that excess protein can be one of the main reasons people have problems with low-carb diets although I can think of plenty more, many people gloss right over this. The body has very little need for protein(perhaps as low as 30g/day for sedentary adults) and all excess amounts will be converted to glucose or fat. Saying its the problem for 99% of low-carbers is going way to far, imo. I lift weights intensely and have been eating low protein (50-100g) per day on average and have still been suffering energy wise as well as a host of other issues. The liver needs to be functioning properly to allow for proper fat digestion as well.

I think rabbit starvation is simply getting too much amino acids in the blood which cause a back up in the liver and completely mess up the nutrient composition of the blood. So essentially I'm saying rabbit starvation is hyperaminoacidosis, or they are very closely related.

Thats also very interesting that you fasted for 4 days on nothing but tallow. I think this is a great idea if you had been intaking so much protein. Once your intake to 4-5 pounds of meat which is something like 4-5k calories you are still getting over a 250g a day of protein, which even if you are active is way too much and could eventually lead to the exact problems that you described. I know 250 < 400 but who knows what happens to the liver after prolonged high protein intake. The amount of protein matters here not the percentage. I've seen numbers thrown around that 250g is actually the maximum amount of protein the liver could handle.

Also, for those that are active enough like you, I would suggest, as I have previously that for the more calories you consume, the more should come from fat (or carbs) and not protein. I think this is very important that excess calories do not involve protein at all! So, as you can see in your case that if you do overload on protein, you can actually go for a few days on just tallow for energy with no protein intake. It will take a while for the blood to clear the amino acids. Redfulcrum, took quite some time to reach hyperaminoacidosis, so it is possible to have quite a bit of excess to supply you with your protein needs for the coming days.

Now, a good question to ask, would be whether or not its beneficial to consume extreme amounts over the course of a few days and then fast on fat for the next while? I have no idea, but I think it could work and I would like to try something like this in the near future. Carnivores in the wild go several days without eating on purpose, so its very likely that the have sufficient amino acids running through their blood to cover their daily needs. Although carnivores are better adapted to higher protein intakes and can handle the nitrogen waste, ammonia much better than humans.

Interesting thread - let us know how you are doing.

[carnivorous]

I also feel that excess protein can be one of the main reasons people have problems with low-carb diets although I can think of plenty more, many people gloss right over this. The body has very little need for protein(perhaps as low as 30g/day for sedentary adults) and all excess amounts will be converted to glucose or fat. Saying its the problem for 99% of low-carbers is going way to far, imo. I lift weights intensely and have been eating low protein (50-100g) per day on average and have still been suffering energy wise as well as a host of other issues. The liver needs to be functioning properly to allow for proper fat digestion as well.

When I said 99% of VLC/ZC I was really not including all low carbers in the bunch, only those who exclusively eat animal products (minus milk).  I was also referring to those who have put in the time (> 1 month) and still felt lousy.  Now 99% of this group still may be a gross exaggeration, but for those who have fixed their digestion and still not seen results I'm hypothesizing excess protein is absolutely the cause.

I have read through most of your posts and your ideas contributed to my ideas of excess protein.  While you say you're eating low protein and still suffering energy wise, I'm fairly certain I saw a post of yours about bubbles in your urine?  I'm fairly certain excess levels of protein can take a VERY long time to clear.  I'm guessing you've eaten very high protein/supplemented protein in the past, given your heavy lifting.  Perhaps many of us are still dealing with the long term effects of the popular fitness dogma to eat protein with every meal and drink protein shakes PWO.

I'm really starting to think excess protein can be as big if not a bigger problem than excess carbs.  We know low calorie diets result in the longest lifespans, and we know excessive carbs are harmful, but could the real damage be from excess protein?  This could explain the paradox of different cultures living far longer on high-carb diets than other cultures with diets much higher in fats.

[KD]

It has been 2 weeks now that I've 99% avoided any protein and stuck to tallow exclusively.  I've even fasted 4 days with no food whatsoever and still not returned to ketosis.  I'm going by the bubbles in my urine as a guide to my body still converting protein to glucose, and expect that when the bubbles clear ketosis will kick in.

Can you give me an idea of how you are testing for this or where your sources are coming from?

My energy is pretty crappy, and I also have extremely bubbly urine, but energy wise it isn't worse off than it was prior to VLC so I'm assuming their are other underlying issues. In my history I've probably not done more than 1 lb of meat with some eggs in the last 2 years, prior to that having no animal protein for more than 3. I've been assuming I AM in ketosis (and that in itself being a possible cause of fatigue, in general or due to any specific issues I have), because if I was just burning small amounts of glucose, I would think my energy would be even worse than when I tried going back on carbs and meats. Is it possible the bubbly urine is something else?

[majormark]

...
I have read through most of your posts and your ideas contributed to my ideas of excess protein.  While you say you're eating low protein and still suffering energy wise, I'm fairly certain I saw a post of yours about bubbles in your urine?  I'm fairly certain excess levels of protein can take a VERY long time to clear.  I'm guessing you've eaten very high protein/supplemented protein in the past, given your heavy lifting.  Perhaps many of us are still dealing with the long term effects of the popular fitness dogma to eat protein with every meal and drink protein shakes PWO.
...

Last year I ate about 5 Kg of powder whey protein in 3 months.

I think these powders have a very low rate of assimilation or else I would have encountered problems.

[Paleo Donk]

I'll try and not duplicate the thread on DC, so if you guys are interested my response to carnivorous is below.

http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/index.php?topic=684.msg26379#msg26379

MM,

5kg in three months isn't actually a whole lot of protein. Most bodybuilders will supplement with a lot more than that for much longer periods of time. I don't think these amino acids remain in your blood for all that long. There is a physical space limitation for them. I think they simply get turned into glucose or fat rather quickly or else you'd be in danger of an overload of amino acids pretty quick.

[carnivorous]

Can you give me an idea of how you are testing for this or where your sources are coming from?

My energy is pretty crappy, and I also have extremely bubbly urine, but energy wise it isn't worse off than it was prior to VLC so I'm assuming their are other underlying issues. In my history I've probably not done more than 1 lb of meat with some eggs in the last 2 years, prior to that having no animal protein for more than 3. I've been assuming I AM in ketosis (and that in itself being a possible cause of fatigue, in general or due to any specific issues I have), because if I was just burning small amounts of glucose, I would think my energy would be even worse than when I tried going back on carbs and meats. Is it possible the bubbly urine is something else?

I'm glad you asked this; over at DC someone asked "How are you determining whether or not you're in ketosis, Carnivorous? By how you feel?"  And I replied:

That's pretty much my only yardstick, yup.  It's not perfect, but I can't think of any other solid measurement.  The way I see it, the increased energy/reduced sleep requirement/mild euphoria/decreased inhibitions are all solid indicators of ketosis.  These indicators tend to be reported a few days in when SAD individuals fast, when Atkins dieters undergo "induction", and by almost all "successful" ZC/VLC dieters.  Obviously weight loss is a significant part of ketosis but trying to measure ketosis by weight loss seems fruitless apart from much longer terms.

This is where my idea of excess protein fits in.  Since fat apparently never releases insulin (though it can be stored via ASP) it should never inhibit ketosis, period.  Logical enough, since fat is fuel for ketosis- why should it ever inhibit it?  This leads to the issue of individuals attempting VLC/ZC diets who cannot seem to lose weight and/or have lousy energy levels.  Assuming they aren't cheating and eating significant amounts of carbohydrate, the only stimulus left that could be causing insulin release and therefore inhibiting ketosis would be protein.

It also would appear that individuals' sensitivities regarding excess protein releasing insulin may vary wildly, just as individual responses to carbohydrates are all over the map.  It may be that sensitivity to excess protein is a blessing in disguise, just as obesity/acne/diabetes is for those that respond to those symptoms by reducing carbohydrate intake.

Well that was longer than anticipated.  I've been thinking about this a lot lately- these aren't necessarily new ideas, but I've noticed some individuals that brought them up on ZIOH but were generally quashed and banned before too much discussion could take place.

[KD]

I've read and partcipated in some converstion with PD on this, and I still not 100% sold on on either bubly urine or low energy being due to high protein (in full anyway), although quite possibly due to some kind of internal decomposition or issues metaboizing protein.

Because even if only a small ammount of protein is necessary, and everything else on top of that being excess, than surely others who consume twice the protein I do or more would have the same issues or worse, especialy if they tolerate glucose worse, which is probably what brought them to ZC. I don't see even how preexisting health would factor in at all, if these things were so correlated.

I'm glad you asked this; over at DC someone asked "How are you determining whether or not you're in ketosis, Carnivorous? By how you feel?"  And I replied:

That's pretty much my only yardstick, yup.  It's not perfect, but I can't think of any other solid measurement.  The way I see it, the increased energy/reduced sleep requirement/mild euphoria/decreased inhibitions are all solid indicators of ketosis.  These indicators tend to be reported a few days in when SAD individuals fast, when Atkins dieters undergo "induction", and by almost all "successful" ZC/VLC dieters.  Obviously weight loss is a significant part of ketosis but trying to measure ketosis by weight loss seems fruitless apart from much longer terms.

I don't understand how you can automatically equate those things with ketosis and say anyone who doesn't feel that way must be burning glucose. I perhaps looking at the process mechanically and then matching it with those positive symptoms (I.e. burning better fuel = less sleep). I know last spring when I had been doing raw low carb, (although not necessariily VLC) I experienced those things in spades. And did used to feel great on fasts, juice fasts or just plain undereating/restriction, now feel worse. I've eaten next to nothing in 1 week and feel worse. Weight loss has been a bitch for me, but it seems to be consistanly not even getting minimum calories, rather than the ketosis, but the kind of fat burning and loss of appetite would only make me assume more that I am in ketosis, and the ketosis is the problem, not glucose burning or excess protein.

[Paleo Donk]

KD, I hope I didn't try and sound like I knew exactly what your bubbles meant. I was speculating and have seen some sites associate bubbles in urine with excess nitrogen or even protein (less likely), so I was merely giving you an idea of what might be happening. It might be something completely different.

I don't think protein in excess would necessarily cause low energy by itself and do not consider this as one of the main reasons why I feel so tired. Protein is slowly converted to glucose (slow enough where insulin can work without overworking the cells of the metabolically challenged) and so people with bad glucose tolerance should easily be able to handle the glucose load. ZC'ers are have extremely stable blood sugar and probably show the best hunger control out of any diet group there is.

I think the problem with low energy has to do with assimilating nutrients properly. One can be very tolerant to glucose, but at the same time have a malfunctioning liver/gall bladder/leaky-gut that is constantly disturbing the body. This is the best idea I can come up with right now that explains my symptoms. I don't think glucose is a problem for me and I might tolerate I high cooked starch diet much better than the one I'm on right now.

Carnivorous,  the best way to tell if you are in ketosis is to measure blood ketone levels. There is a paper out there that discusses just this. Urinary ketones vary wildly from different individuals. If you have not eaten in a few weeks, you will definitely be using ketones, regardless of the amount of amino acids in your blood before. Gluconeogenesis, especially in a fasted state, should not provide you enough glucose to keep you out of ketosis....

Unless something very, very strange is going on and you just might be a very special case, and I need to find out what the maximum capacity for amino acids is in the blood before one starts to feel sick. I just found a paper that lists amino acids at 3000 micromoles per liter. There are about 5 liters of blood in the human body and so this would equate to 15000 micromoles or .015 moles. The study was done on the elderly after an overnight fast so this is probably the low end. Still, .015 moles is very little considering the molecular weight for amino acids range 75-200g/mole, giving us an estimate of just 1-2g of amino acids in the blood stream. Starvation studies show just about the same concentration at the start and end of the fasting period. I don't know enough to know where the rest of the amino acids are stored after a high protein meal.

This still doesn't explain your nearly three weeks of fasting without muscle loss. You would be extremely unique and quite a subject of study if this truly was the case. If you didn't carefully measure lean-body mass then there is no way to tell. Did you track weight or strength levels. How has your energy been throughout your fast? If it is possible to have an abundance of free amino acids available it does make sense that you could fast for some time without any reprocussions at all, but I haven't seen a study show this. Everyone starts losing lean mass right away.

Personally, I've only fasted for a day and half and I felt great at the end of the fast like I could have gone much longer but decided to eat because it seemed like the right thing to do. I ate cooked food with carbs and felt worse soon after. I've also had other days where I have ate only fat to the point where I didn't feel like eating any protein but again decided it was best to go ahead and eat some meat.

What I would guess now is that if you have eaten a ton of protein say greater than 400 grams for sometime a la redfulcrum then you could probably go a few days completely fasted without losing any lean mass while your liver slowly processes the excess, but 3 weeks seems like a very large stretch and I don't think the body has the capacity to hold that kind of concentration of amino acids. I mean, the blood weighs about 5-6 kg for an average human so even if the blood was one big block of amino acids your liver would still be able to process the entire amount a relatively short amount of time.

Go to Dr. Eades blog and search for junk proteins and you will find the article that I was talking about.

[carnivorous]

I don't understand how you can automatically equate those things with ketosis and say anyone who doesn't feel that way must be burning glucose. I perhaps looking at the process mechanically and then matching it with those positive symptoms (I.e. burning better fuel = less sleep). I know last spring when I had been doing raw low carb, (although not necessariily VLC) I experienced those things in spades. And did used to feel great on fasts, juice fasts or just plain undereating/restriction, now feel worse. I've eaten next to nothing in 1 week and feel worse. Weight loss has been a bitch for me, but it seems to be consistanly not even getting minimum calories, rather than the ketosis, but the kind of fat burning and loss of appetite would only make me assume more that I am in ketosis, and the ketosis is the problem, not glucose burning or excess protein.

You're right, my hypothesis is only that.  Even if fat fasting until the bubbles fade and limiting protein returns my energy and high-performance I will only have my data point of one.  In my ~6 month experience with ZC I've had about 4 periods of feeling absolutely amazing, better than I've ever felt since I was a kid- except with much greater athletic performance and libido.  

I have not been keeping accurate records of day to day meals and activities, but one of the more recent periods of feeling amazing was following a 3 day fat fast.  I had been trying to improve my digestion, and had worked my way up to ~30 650mg HCL tabs per meal.  I decided to give my stomach a break and see if it would handle HCL production better after a rest.  After 3 days of eating only sticks of butter, I ate about 1/5th a lb of ground beef.  I felt amazing that day, and as I recall had been feeling better and better over the fat fast.  I soon resumed my 1-2lbs of ground beef with butter and felt like shit within a few days.  The obvious idea that comes to mind was that I just needed smaller meals to allow my body better digestion- but I tried keeping meals under .2 lbs to no avail.  This experience to me supports my current idea that it is simply a buildup of protein constantly converting to glucose and preventing ketosis.

This reminds me of another point-  I have been suffering from almost incurable dry-mouth and dehydration.  I cannot even drink enough water during the day to prevent waking in the middle of the night with an unbelievably dry mouth.  I'm assuming this is from the huge amount of water my kidneys are demanding to filter out the protein/nitrogen.  My urine is completely clear, but if I try to drink less the bubbles become even more overwhelming and I suffer from all the symptoms of chronic dehydration.  

Finally, while this topic has brought up excellent discussion regarding my claims, I'd love to hear any ideas WRT one of my original questions: how might I most significantly increase bodily protein demands?  I've been pinching the shit outta myself trying to bruise, but to no avail.  I'm thinking of some rather dumb sounding ideas: bloodletting, smacking myself against walls, getting a buddy to leg kick me a bunch...but I'm convinced greater protein demand would help.  I guess heavy lifting would be the most repair-intensive type of exercise?  Certainly the most anabolic.

[carnivorous]

KD, I hope I didn't try and sound like I knew exactly what your bubbles meant. I was speculating and have seen some sites associate bubbles in urine with excess nitrogen or even protein (less likely), so I was merely giving you an idea of what might be happening. It might be something completely different.

I don't think protein in excess would necessarily cause low energy by itself and do not consider this as one of the main reasons why I feel so tired. Protein is slowly converted to glucose (slow enough where insulin can work without overworking the cells of the metabolically challenged) and so people with bad glucose tolerance should easily be able to handle the glucose load. ZC'ers are have extremely stable blood sugar and probably show the best hunger control out of any diet group there is.

I think the problem with low energy has to do with assimilating nutrients properly. One can be very tolerant to glucose, but at the same time have a malfunctioning liver/gall bladder/leaky-gut that is constantly disturbing the body. This is the best idea I can come up with right now that explains my symptoms. I don't think glucose is a problem for me and I might tolerate I high cooked starch diet much better than the one I'm on right now.

From what I understand, for gluconeogenesis to convert protein to glucose it has to drop the nitrogen molecule.  This free nitrogen is hazardous waste and is excreted by the body ASAP- thus the bubbly urine and unbelievable thirst and dehydration referred to in my previous post.  I apologize for my lackluster chemistry.

The reason protein in excess would cause low energy is not because of huge insulin hits ala carb diets.  I agree that the body can easily handle the slow, constant supply of glucose provided via gluconeogenesis.  The issue is that no matter how slow the release, it IS using insulin, and the insulin pathway will absolutely interrupt if not stop ketosis dead in its tracks.

I too used to think my struggles were due to poor absorption; I actually felt great for a period while eating pemmican, which is presumably the easiest way for those with compromised digestive systems to absorb nutrients.  That, however, did not last.  You can even read through delfuego's posts and see a point at which he describes the eventual loss of happiness/joy of life/energy which he fixed by adding large amounts of fat to his pemmican.  I am assuming that he did not simply maintain the same amount of pemmican and add more fat, but rather reduced his 50/50 pemmican amount and added extra fat, thus preventing the accumulation of excess protein. 

I absolutely believe that issues with energy/happiness are due to not actually being in ketosis, due to insulin from excess carbohydrate or protein.

[KD]

PD, thanks for the info
I did mention you but was talking about things generally in the thread and other places. Didn't mean to associate all my comments debunking things you didn't say

but if we want to keep discussion going on these things I can say
as for assimilation (for me), this is another piece that doesn't make as much sense to me. Just one week ago, even my GF commented on how good I looked, my hair was extra curly, like a dolls, as I finally washed it. my skin, eyes were clear, my nails are strong, and my physique up until this week has responded really well with minimal intake of food. not to mention my elimination seems to be pretty good for this type of diet and never has undigested food. SO the food I do eat I must be getting something out of. part of my fatigue could just be lack of fat/calories, but I suspect these things are grounded in toxins and metals and such, but even at the basic level are signs the body wants to rest, problem is theres often so much work to be done that it can seem to last really long without being proactive.

carnivorous,
my two cents is that the banging and such isn't the greatest idea, especially if you can tolerate doing the fats with no or minimal protein for awhile, while doing some exercise. The bloodletting might have some success in terms of using up proteins, but if you are talking about dehydration, this as well as the other things seem to make less sense. It seems like the heavy fats should be helpful with that as well

I wasn't saying ZC isn't as beneficial as you say, just that all of a sudden feeling lousy wouldn't mean that you had popped out of ketosis.

[Paleo Donk]

I really don't think your problem is excess protein, as I said that even if you blood was an entire block of amino acids it could convert all of it to glucose or fat in a couple weeks. Don't you think you would get signals from your body from protein overconsumption much before you reach the point that your blood is entirely composed of amino acids? Or even 10%? Perhaps, though all these amino acids are simply stored in the liver waiting to get converted. Or even better in muscle tissue, though there is no evidence that this would happen in large amounts, though it makes sense that the muscles would be a great temporary deposit for excess amino acids. But, perhaps there is a limit here too, to how much muscle can be built in one day. So, maybe your liver tripled in size?

Why not go to the drugstore and get something to measure urinary ketones? This should give us an answer on ketosis.

I have been corresponding with a forum poster here by the name of Mr. BBQ (check up his posts, they are very informative) who's dealing with many of the same problems as you and I. Here is what he has to say about HCL and its connection to liver function, which I think is probably closer in line with finding the underlying cause of this mess.

On the matter of betaine HCL, it’s a sticking plaster – one questions why the stomach is not producing HCL with multiple possibility. Initially, sufficient chloride is needed, which is nicely bio-available in any traditionally-harvested sun-dried sea salt (with its full complement of ionic minerals and some respective living element).
 
Also, the chyme leaving the stomach and entering the duodenum is a pretty damn acidic cocktail, as you can imagine – this kind of pH ain’t the funk in the small intestine, so what normalises the pH of chyme for that environment(?)...The juices entering the duodenum via the sphincter of oddi – you guessed it, from the liver, gallbladder and pancreas. So, if there’s insufficient alkalising element coming into the duodenum due to occlusions in the biliary tree (sludge, soft stones, hard stones, grit, gravel, allsorts), one may wonder if there’s a corresponding effect to down-regulate HCL production in the stomach. Ultimately, this may impact the effect of the enzymes in the stomach (pepsin etc.), yielding undigested protein.
 
Bile as a fat emulsifier and vehicle for toxins out of the liver, is also a deliverer of bicarbonate for the purpose of alkalising chyme and generally controlling downstream pathogenesis.
 
Can you see a pattern forming here – a really insipid vicious circle, which may be dealt with swiftly to preserve living systems and facilitate proper nourishment?
 
Also, if you’re not emulsifying your fats optimally (bile insufficiency), you’re certainly not uptaking calcium and the fat-soluble vitamins, which are critical to maintaining skeletal metabolism etc.
 
What’s the point in putting excess good food in a body that can’t absorb/uptake or use it?! The people on raw paleo forum contest that good food is all you need, although I can’t imagine that everyday paleo eating could shift some of the very stubborn debris.

[carnivorous]

I've read that post from BBQ 3 times now...I'm guessing I need some sleep, 'cause it's still not really registering.  Anyways I went from 30+ 650mg HCL pills with no burn to feeling a burn with 1-2, so I have dropped them for a while now. They definitely seemed to help, though. 

Let's go ahead and say it's lack of nutrients from poor digestion that's still causing my issues, then.  Why would I be excreting so much nitrogen in my urine?  Does this mean I'm absorbing absolutely no fat, so my body refuses to produce ketones and instead wastes protein for glucose?  Shouldn't I just use bodily fat stores?  (I am no higher than 7-8% bodyfat, if even, but there's still a bit to be used by my body in an emergency...)  I'll try HCL until burning with my next protein meal later this week and see what happens.

[michaelwh]

I don't agree with the notion that ketosis=good, excess protein=bad.

If you are a carnivore and want to do anaerobic exercise, then you need glucose. That glucose must come from protein gluconeogenesis. (or glycogen in organ meats).

That's how a wild carnivore gets its glucose (which is needed to sprint when hunting down prey!).

I remember reading a study done on Eskimos, which showed that they got enough glucose to stay out of ketosis (unless fasting).

Excess insulin from excess carbs is bad, but small amounts of insulin are essential for good health. Just ask any type 1 diabetic.

I've been doing lots of exercise in the past week, and today my calves were quite sore. I pigged out and ate ~5lbs of raw flesh (mostly beef, and a bit of tuna), and relaxed. No problems with digestion or energy. I usually don't eat this much. When not exercising, I only eat ~2lbs per day. I do get more thirsty if I eat tons of protein, so I just drink more water. Not a big deal.

[michaelwh]

Another thing -

Lean meat is not just protein and water. It contains lots of minerals, vitamins, and micronutrients (provided it comes from a grass-fed or wild animal). So there could be benefits to eating lean meat above the quantity necessary to maintain nitrogen balance.

[miles]

Michaelwh has said it best so far I think.

However... How much of a difference do you think there really is between whether you're eating 100% Grass-fed, or Grain-finished meat? So far, apart from ~1 week near the beginning where I had ordered grass-fed, and a few times eating lamb which I think is 100% grass-fed, I've been eating grain-finished.

[MrBBQ]

I would prob'ly ask why the phenomena varies from eater to eater...and why we should neglect the carb metabolic pathways in ourselves (like salivary amylase for one).

Personally, I've experimented with different combinations of meat, fat and organs, missing days of animal protein altogether, and time and time again, I had the dark shadows and edema of kidney stress (as well as very yellow bubble factory).

By the way, my correspondences/posts are always very subjective, especially considering that I have had limited observations/success with my experiments. My only appeal is for less dogma and more speculation about all things, which is productive on a forum, even if the feedback is negative.

If only we were in a tribe and could consult the elders/shaman, or even the spirits...It's strange that we're so out of touch with our true intuition/instinct and have to utter these invented nomenclature about natural mechanisms. I suppose that concrete jungles do that to a paleo wannabe...Moreover, maybe long past generations did not chest beat over the idiosyncrasies of eating their kill and surviving another day/generation...

Add 4 bananas, hehe?!

[carnivorous]

Personally, I've experimented with different combinations of meat, fat and organs, missing days of animal protein altogether, and time and time again, I had the dark shadows and edema of kidney stress (as well as very yellow bubble factory).

Are you saying your kidneys are stressed on the days you are NOT eating protein?  Interesting if so.

[Paleo Donk]

I've read that post from BBQ 3 times now...I'm guessing I need some sleep, 'cause it's still not really registering.  Anyways I went from 30+ 650mg HCL pills with no burn to feeling a burn with 1-2, so I have dropped them for a while now. They definitely seemed to help, though. 

Well, I guess I need to change the password to my email if you've read that three times... With the HCL, I wonder how the actual mechanism in the body works that gets your stomach to produce enough acid again. Perhaps the body stores this HCL slowly somewhere and the pills just top off its supply. I don't see how the HCL would ramp up the body's natural ability to produce it on its own. Maybe it does, who knows. It'll be interesting to see if your need for HCL goes back up since have stopped taking the pills.

Let's go ahead and say it's lack of nutrients from poor digestion that's still causing my issues, then.  Why would I be excreting so much nitrogen in my urine?  Does this mean I'm absorbing absolutely no fat, so my body refuses to produce ketones and instead wastes protein for glucose?  Shouldn't I just use bodily fat stores?  (I am no higher than 7-8% bodyfat, if even, but there's still a bit to be used by my body in an emergency...)  I'll try HCL until burning with my next protein meal later this week and see what happens.

We need to be clear - you don't know how much nitrogen is in your urine and the bubbles are far from a sure sign that this means you are excreting lots of nitrogen.  This is a gigantic assumption from just bubbles. I'm not sure if there is an easily available method for calculating this.

There still is a small possibility that you did over-accumulate protein from your high-protein diet over the past few months that it would take a few days to get completely out of your system. Perhaps your liver is overworked and it can only convert so much protein per day - less than what a normal liver could convert? With your small intake of protein and adequate consumption of tallow (though I don't think this spares much if any protein), you could have lost little lean body-mass after your 'fast', but I still can't make sense of it with all the starvation work I have seen.

What I still think is the interesting part, is whether or not it would be more beneficial to have large protein meals every few days and just munch on low-density vegetation in between or eat smaller amounts of protein everyday.

[miles]

Well, I guess I need to change the password to my email if you've read that three times...

I think he means the quote which you provided.
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Does anyone know why the body doesn't just use excess protein to build more? I can see that if you have more size, you need more food to support it, so you may not do so well when food runs short, but then why isn't it better to have more body to break down? Also, if you're bigger, when food is scarce you should be able to out-compete the others for that food..? Someone mentioned myo-statins in another topic. Do the levels of these ever decrease naturally, simply through continually surpassing the body's dietary needs, if not why not?

[Paleo Donk]

I think he means the quote which you provided.
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obviously, yes. The quote came directly from my email. You seem to misinterpret just about everything I write, even trivial things like this.

Does anyone know why the body doesn't just use excess protein to build more? I can see that if you have more size, you need more food to support it, so you may not do so well when food runs short, but then why isn't it better to have more body to break down? Also, if you're bigger, when food is scarce you should be able to out-compete the others for that food..? Someone mentioned myo-statins in another topic. Do the levels of these ever decrease naturally, simply through continually surpassing the body's dietary needs, if not why not?

The body is very conservative and generally knows what its doing. It has no need for extra muscle mass if it is not being used. It must think extra mass is not as important as simply converting these amino acids to glucose, even when provided with an overabundance. The process of storing excess amino acids as muscle could take longer and be harder than the body than to just excrete them into them urine.