How long does it take to clear excess protein from the blood?

[carnivorous]

Posted this in response to a suggestion to try more fat:

I have actually been forcing more fat again.  At one point I was consuming about a lb of USWellness's tallow in addition to my daily meal of fatty meat or pemmican.  That soon became 'as much as I could stomach', which soon became under half a pound a day while fat fasting.  USW tallow is unbelievably disgusting; honestly, I've consumed so many gross supplement powders and concoctions that I'm quite used to forcing myself to suck it up.  Their tallow has reached a point with me where no amount of willpower will prevent some sort of gag reflex.

My point is that I switched to pure heavy cream for now, which is palatable enough.  I've started eating between 1-1.5 lbs of 80% ground beef and one pint of cream every night, doubting my excess protein theory.  Starting today I'm kicking that up to 2-3 pints of cream first then 'lean' ground beef.

The only thing I've found to help so far is absolutely ungodly amounts of water.  It does seem like my body is still converting protein to fuel for whatever reason, and it is dehydrating me severely.  I'm drinking 2+ gallons of water a day, and it seems like several of the adverse effects I was experiencing were actually due to dehydration.

The issue with this is that I'm drinking an absurd amount of water and visit the restroom 2+ times an hour.  The possibility of water overdose and electrolyte disturbances are constantly on my mind, but I seem to be doing alright.  The other issue is that, no matter how much I drink during the day, I always become extremely dehydrated during the night.  I crawl out of bed exhausted and feel no relief until a few pints later.

Anyways, my assumption is that it's my body's gluconeogenesis that is causing this extreme dehydration- the kidneys demand large amounts of water to continuously filter out the nitrogen (thus the bubbles, which clear up once I've drank enough in a short enough time period.)  At this point, my new hypothesis is that this is due to a lack of fat prompting my body to rely on gluconeogenesis for the majority of its fuel.

Considering all of the cases of failure to thrive on ZC diets I've read about, it seems a great majority are young, lean to begin with, and male (with a few instances of active athletes fizzling out and giving up).  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that ~2500 calories from fat alone + protein would not cover my energy needs when totally sedentary.  Perhaps, though, I have some sort of fat 'debt' that needs to be satisfied before my body is comfortable burning fat for fuel.  In light of the younger lean males failing at ZC is does seem a strong possibility that we've all greatly underestimated our bodies needs for fat.

A lack of fat almost seems too simple to be the case, but considering I've availed myself of many symptoms simply by drinking far more water, I think refocusing on the basics is wise enough.

[miles]

It could also be that some people who are lean on SAD have metabolic problems, which have built up and ended up stopping their bodies from storing/using body-fat.

[djr_81]

I have actually been forcing more fat again.  At one point I was consuming about a lb of USWellness's tallow in addition to my daily meal of fatty meat or pemmican.  That soon became 'as much as I could stomach', which soon became under half a pound a day while fat fasting.  USW tallow is unbelievably disgusting; honestly, I've consumed so many gross supplement powders and concoctions that I'm quite used to forcing myself to suck it up.  Their tallow has reached a point with me where no amount of willpower will prevent some sort of gag reflex.

I wouldn't ever depend on commercial tallow as an energy source. It's possible you could have much more success with raw animal fats or at the very least homemade tallow where you can minimize damage to the fat.

Considering all of the cases of failure to thrive on ZC diets I've read about, it seems a great majority are young, lean to begin with, and male (with a few instances of active athletes fizzling out and giving up).  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that ~2500 calories from fat alone + protein would not cover my energy needs when totally sedentary.  Perhaps, though, I have some sort of fat 'debt' that needs to be satisfied before my body is comfortable burning fat for fuel.  In light of the younger lean males failing at ZC is does seem a strong possibility that we've all greatly underestimated our bodies needs for fat.

I run counter to this argument. 28 year-old male with, I'd estimate, roughly 8% bodyfat (eyeballing based on where I was at 4% a couple years ago). I'm also moderately to highly active depending on the time of the year. All I eat most days is ~1/2 pound of grass-finished fat a day as well as 1-2 pounds of grass-finished beef chuck. I have maintained a plateau around 170 pounds without muscle mass loss.
I do drink at least a half gallon of water a day, sometimes as much as a gallon, and add a tiny bit of aqueous electrolytes to the water. I upped my water intake a couple months ago and definitely noticed a beneficial effect, most noticeably the disappearance of my hypostatic orthotension.

[carnivorous]

I wouldn't ever depend on commercial tallow as an energy source. It's possible you could have much more success with raw animal fats or at the very least homemade tallow where you can minimize damage to the fat.
I run counter to this argument. 28 year-old male with, I'd estimate, roughly 8% bodyfat (eyeballing based on where I was at 4% a couple years ago). I'm also moderately to highly active depending on the time of the year. All I eat most days is ~1/2 pound of grass-finished fat a day as well as 1-2 pounds of grass-finished beef chuck. I have maintained a plateau around 170 pounds without muscle mass loss.
I do drink at least a half gallon of water a day, sometimes as much as a gallon, and add a tiny bit of aqueous electrolytes to the water. I upped my water intake a couple months ago and definitely noticed a beneficial effect, most noticeably the disappearance of my hypostatic orthotension.

I do need to source some raw grass fed fat.  Been lazy with that.

I certainly wasn't saying all young athletic or lean individuals would fail at the diet; if I was suggesting that, I would have given up already!  What I am stating, however, is that reviewing the ZIOH journals, and experiences here and elsewhere indicate to me that young and lean individuals represent a MUCH greater percentage of those struggling than they do of  those attemping carnivorous diets as a whole.  I can't say I ran numbers for this, but it's been such an obvious paradox that I never felt the need to prove it to myself.

[carnivorous]

It could also be that some people who are lean on SAD have metabolic problems, which have built up and ended up stopping their bodies from storing/using body-fat.

An obvious possibility; the common gut explanations come to mind (candida, leaky gut, IBS, etc.)  That said I've felt absolutely amazing maybe 20 days (non-consecutive) out of the last 6 months I've been eating ZC.  The first ~3 days were some of those.  It is bizarre and frustrating that I've not been able to consistently thrive on this diet over 6 months, and I'm not the only one.

[William]

Perhaps, though, I have some sort of fat 'debt' that needs to be satisfied before my body is comfortable burning fat for fuel.  In light of the younger lean males failing at ZC is does seem a strong possibility that we've all greatly underestimated our bodies needs for fat.

AV wrote that our bodies use fat for solvent and lubricant as well as nutrient. Your physical state might require more of any one of these functions.

USW tallow has been deprecated after a conversation with the maker, who said it was not completely water-free.
It gets moldy as a result, while the home-made or (mass-market food grade) commercial tallow should be good for 20+ years without taste change.

[Paleo Donk]

One point, just as an exercise in creating even more bizarre possibilities, that I'd like to mention is that by eating lots of fat you could actually be getting your body to run even more exclusively on carbs. This sounds counterintuitive and I can easily argue against it, but the glyceride molecule in all of the fats that you are eating can be easily converted to carbs and a wide number of sources put this at around 10% of each fat molecule. This would not add up to all that much even if you are eating 300+ grams of fats a day but I think its worth mentioning. If you really want to send your body into ketosis then you should no doubt get there by completely fasting for a week.

But, of more importance, and you ignored this question before, is..

Why not buy strips to measure ketone levels?

You are spending all this money on excess calorie consumption why not spend $10 to measure ketones that could give you some valuable information.

[carnivorous]

One point, just as an exercise in creating even more bizarre possibilities, that I'd like to mention is that by eating lots of fat you could actually be getting your body to run even more exclusively on carbs. This sounds counterintuitive and I can easily argue against it, but the glyceride molecule in all of the fats that you are eating can be easily converted to carbs and a wide number of sources put this at around 10% of each fat molecule. This would not add up to all that much even if you are eating 300+ grams of fats a day but I think its worth mentioning. If you really want to send your body into ketosis then you should no doubt get there by completely fasting for a week.

But, of more importance, and you ignored this question before, is..

Why not buy strips to measure ketone levels?

You are spending all this money on excess calorie consumption why not spend $10 to measure ketones that could give you some valuable information.

You know I thought about that glycerol point for a bit.  Ultimately if that's going to happen, it'll happen- it just seems kinda absurd to worry about.

I guess I'll go pick up some strips.  I'm just not sure what value they'd provide...am I hoping to see evidence of excess ketones?  I'm not really convinced I'm not in ketosis anymore, just that some vital nutrient(s) is preventing me from thriving (and maybe as in the case of HCL deficiency creating all sorts of other deficiencies.)  You can look at the symptoms list for any number of vitamins/mineral or even fat deficiencies and find depression, muscle soreness, lack of energy, etc.

I'm thinking if the fat doesn't fix things up, next week I'll add in more raw beef alongside intense exercise.  I feel like exercise would make a huge difference as far as feeling better energy-wise, since it tells the body to keep the energy production running (vs storage.)  Really the only reason I'm not still working out is the soreness/palpitations/shortness of breath that kinda scare me.

[Paleo Donk]

Oh, I still thought that you thought you weren't in ketosis and still using majority glucose as fuel. Ultimately though, yea these strips will probably not be able to point you in any direction either way, though they could and it would be interesting to find out just as an exercise.

You did bring up a good observation in your last post that I forgot to address about younger males not thriving on zc/vlc.

Maybe we can make a list to clarify things because you might be concentrating on the failures, which is what I like to do. I hardly ever take time to look at the success stories, its the failures that seem to provide much more information and are actually more likely to be telling the truth.

Those that failed - Rosenfeltc, Niklas, Martin
Success - djr81, wodgina
Still testing - me, you, yuri

Any more you guys can think of?

My strength has gone up while being vlc and I can play basketball pretty well without getting run down, though its been such a long time since I've been at my peak that I can't really compare it to much. I've felt run down for a long time and am not active enough to say if my endurance level is where I'd like it. But, overall athletically I feel like I have potential to reach my goals with vlc.

[Savage]

23yrs old, more than thriving on RZC, best dietary change I've ever made in my entire life.

Nothing else even comes close, I have been reading about nutrition and exercise for 10 years and I'll never read another book or article about diet and exercise, I already have my answer.

The one thing that some people might need to change is to increase their intake of lean meat and decrease their fat intake, this has been very beneficial for me.

[carnivorous]

Should clarify that it's the lean/low bodyfat ones who seem to have the most trouble adapting.  Normal/overweight young males don't seem to have any greater difficulty adapting than average.

Savage, what exactly are you eating these days (or normally if you're still only eating lean?)  Be interesting to hear your lean/fat amounts

[klowcarb]

I recently dropped ghee and lard for 2 reasons. First, they both were tasting too sweet to me. Secondly, and most importantly, I find that I do better on both raw meat AND raw fat. I adore raw bone marrow, and it is not sweet. I do feel more energy eating this way. I only eat cooked meat now if I have a date at a restaurant, and that is purely rare unseasoned steak.

[William]

I recently dropped ghee and lard for 2 reasons. First, they both were tasting too sweet to me. Secondly, and most importantly, I find that I do better on both raw meat AND raw fat. I adore raw bone marrow, and it is not sweet. I do feel more energy eating this way. I only eat cooked meat now if I have a date at a restaurant, and that is purely rare unseasoned steak.

Careful! Both PaleoPhil and I noted that at one time liquids began to taste sweet. I don't know why, but my straight black coffee no longer tastes sweet.

[TylerDurden]

Should clarify that it's the lean/low bodyfat ones who seem to have the most trouble adapting.  Normal/overweight young males don't seem to have any greater difficulty adapting than average.

Savage, what exactly are you eating these days (or normally if you're still only eating lean?)  Be interesting to hear your lean/fat amounts

I'm not so sure that's true. Paleophil mentioned he was underweight, Lex's picture shows him to be rather a thin body-type. By contrast, I was heavily overweight pre-RPD diet and easily pile on the pounds even after a small intake of cooked animal foods or raw dairy - and I did very badly on raw zero carb.

[RawZi]

Should clarify that it's the lean/low bodyfat ones who seem to have the most trouble adapting.  Normal/overweight young males don't seem to have any greater difficulty adapting than average.

    What about females?  Any observations?

[RawZi]

Careful! Both PaleoPhil and I noted that at one time liquids began to taste sweet. I don't know why, but my straight black coffee no longer tastes sweet.

    When my carbs are superlow (mostly just from soured butter NO liver) for over a month, I get a sweet aftertaste from eggs and water tastes very sweet.  What does this mean?

    Why don't you join me on Dirty Carnivore.  I find it much better not fighting against the waves.  Your main focus is on meat for health.  Smoking isn't raw.  It's a nice group there.  I think you should consider.  You'll like it.  I do.  I started posting there cause I really think I want to try zero carb, and I think that might be a good place for me to do it. 

[William]

   When my carbs are superlow (mostly just from soured butter NO liver) for over a month, I get a sweet aftertaste from eggs and water tastes very sweet.  What does this mean?

I don't know. Disturbing, because I don't like that sweet taste. Pre-diabetic.

    Why don't you join me on Dirty Carnivore.  I find it much better not fighting against the waves.  Your main focus is on meat for health.  Smoking isn't raw.  It's a nice group there.  I think you should consider.  You'll like it.  I do.  I started posting there cause I really think I want to try zero carb, and I think that might be a good place for me to do it. 

There is a troll there too. Complete with fan club.

[PaleoPhil]

I'm not so sure that's true. Paleophil mentioned he was underweight, Lex's picture shows him to be rather a thin body-type. By contrast, I was heavily overweight pre-RPD diet and easily pile on the pounds even after a small intake of cooked animal foods or raw dairy - and I did very badly on raw zero carb.

Correct re: me, though I believe that Lex reported he was heavy before he started ZC, but he also reported that he was able to add back significant amounts of body fat when he ate too many calories on ZC.

[PaleoPhil]

   When my carbs are superlow (mostly just from soured butter NO liver) for over a month, I get a sweet aftertaste from eggs and water tastes very sweet.  What does this mean?

Apparently it means that you were eating more fats than your body could handle at the time because you were not "fat adapted." Based on my own and other peoples' reported experiences, this appears to be a more real indicator of fat adaptation than urinary ketones, which Dr. Harris says only indicate ketonuria, not lack of fat adaptation (Harris, Lex and I all continue to excrete some urinary ketones long after going VLC/ZC, so he may be right).

...I started posting there cause I really think I want to try zero carb, and I think that might be a good place for me to do it.  

If you do ZC I recommend getting Multistix and educating yourself about potential issues--such as water, magnesium, iodine and organ intakes. It's doable and VLC/ZC has worked wonders for me so far, but for longterm success it apparently requires some special practices that longtime VLCers like the Inuit, Chukchi, Nenets, etc. know about but most moderners are unaware of.

I don't know. Disturbing, because I don't like that sweet taste. Pre-diabetic.

Are you still getting the sweet taste, William? For me it was only strong for a few weeks, as I recall.

[RawZi]

Apparently it means that you were eating more fats than your body could handle at the time because you were not "fat adapted." Based on my own and other peoples' reported experiences, this appears to be a more real indicator of fat adaptation than urinary ketones, which Dr. Harris says only indicate ketonuria, not lack of fat adaptation (Harris, Lex and I all continue to excrete some urinary ketones long after going VLC/ZC, so he may be right).
If you do ZC I recommend getting Multistix and educating yourself about potential issues--such as water, magnesium, iodine and organ intakes. It's doable and VLC/ZC has worked wonders for me so far, but for longterm success it apparently requires some special practices that longtime VLCers like the Inuit, Chukchi, Nenets, etc. know about but most moderners are unaware of.

    Hmm.  I feel really good that way though.  And the sweet doesn't feel bad, I just want to understand it.  Maybe ZC cannot be for me.  Is there maybe proof that it can only be done sans dairy?  Maybe it's just the wrong protein and fat no matter how void of carbs it is.  I have to consider, but I don't feel like doing multistix every day, if at all.

[RawZi]

There is a troll there too. Complete with fan club.

    Good to know I'm not the only one who tastes the sweet flavor.

    Who's the troll there?  What do you mean fan club?  How would that make you not want to be there?  You have an account there I think, I just checked the member list, and a William is there who seems similar.  Do you like this place better because of the paleo thing being more important than meat?

[klowcarb]

    Hmm.  I feel really good that way though.  And the sweet doesn't feel bad, I just want to understand it.  Maybe ZC cannot be for me.  Is there maybe proof that it can only be done sans dairy?  Maybe it's just the wrong protein and fat no matter how void of carbs it is.  I have to consider, but I don't feel like doing multistix every day, if at all.

Why can't you be raw ZC? I post here and at DCF.

[William]

Are you still getting the sweet taste, William? For me it was only strong for a few weeks, as I recall.

No, my experience was the same as yours.

[PaleoPhil]

    Hmm.  I feel really good that way though.  And the sweet doesn't feel bad, I just want to understand it.

There's not a lot of info about it online, but it apparently results from acetone in the saliva from the excess fats that the body is not yet able to utilize fully for energy or fat storage--apparently the body is trying to get rid of the excess fat. You may also notice an increase in saliva as the body tries to excrete the acetone. There were times where it was coming close to dripping out of my mouth like a wolf or dog. Once fully adapted your body should be able to use the fat to warm your body and to store for later energy. At that point the sweet taste should diminish. I think water still tastes slightly sweeter to me than it used to (especially if I've been ZC and eating a lot of fat), but not sickeningly sweet like it got for a couple weeks.

  Maybe ZC cannot be for me.

The sweet saliva is a normal and temporary thing, like William indicated.

Is there maybe proof that it can only be done sans dairy?

I've never heard that.

I don't feel like doing multistix every day, if at all.

Nor do I. I've probably measured less than half a dozen times total.

[RawZi]

Why can't you be raw ZC? I post here and at DCF.

    Yes, you are wonderful there, a warm welcome to me, thank you.  I am very grateful!

    I'm not sure again, I'm rethinking it back and forth if it could be ok or good for me.  I had that sweet flavor come every time for about two years raw low carb.  Maybe this means this body will never adapt.