How long does it take to clear excess protein from the blood?

[RawZi]

    I did have an increase in saliva, but I liked that.  I've always been so dry otherwise.

There's not a lot of info about it online, but it apparently results from acetone in the saliva from the excess fats that the body is not yet able to utilize fully for energy or fat storage--apparently the body is trying to get rid of the excess fat. You may also notice an increase in saliva as the body tries to excrete the acetone.

There were times where it was coming close to dripping out of my mouth like a wolf or dog. Once fully adapted your body should be able to use the fat to warm your body and to store for later energy. At that point the sweet taste should diminish. I think water still tastes slightly sweeter to me than it used to (especially if I've been ZC and eating a lot of fat), but not sickeningly sweet like it got for a couple weeks.

The sweet saliva is a normal and temporary thing, like William indicated.

I've never heard that.

Nor do I. I've probably measured less than half a dozen times total.

    I never dripped like a dog.  I just got to the normal amount all the healthy people around me have.  I suspect maybe my body was using the fat in good ways.  It evened my body temp to all good temp, and my body looked and felt better fat distributed.  It was never sickeningly sweet to me, just strangely sweet.  For me it was two years, how temporary is that?  It always seems my body reacts differently than other people.

    I know dairy no matter how good it works, it works differently than meat.

    Oh good, I would hate to have to measure all the time.

[PaleoPhil]

"For me it was two years, how temporary is that?  It always seems my body reacts differently than other people."

Hmm, that's puzzling. Did you cycle back and forth between ZC and eating carbs or were you consistently ZC?

    I never dripped like a dog.

LOL, I didn't quite either, but I came close. I suspect that I have more carnivorous genes than most, which may explain my amazing saliva levels (that my hygienist even remarked about), prominent canines, color blindness, green eyes, red hair, and pale skin; all of which potentially have intriguing connections to carnivory and carnivore-oriented peoples of the past, though some of the links proposed by scientists are mere speculations at this point (for example, Neanderthals were supposedly the most carnivorous humans and at least some of them had red hair, green eyes and pale skin and some scientists speculate that some of their genes may have survived, though this is controversial).

[djr_81]

I wouldn't worry about the sweet taste Rawzi.
If I eat more fat than usual I get a sweet taste in my mouth. I also sometimes get a sweet taste when I drink water.
As far as I'm concerned I'm thriving on a raw carnivorous diet (barring the tired when I wake thing) and after spending over 8 months eating this way I'd wager I'm fairly well keto-adapted. I don't worry about the sweet taste if/when it shows up.

[RawZi]

"For me it was two years, how temporary is that?  It always seems my body reacts differently than other people."

Hmm, that's puzzling. Did you cycle back and forth between ZC and eating carbs or were you consistently ZC?
LOL, I didn't quite either, but I came close. I suspect that I have more carnivorous genes than most, which may explain my amazing saliva levels (that my hygienist even remarked about), prominent ... eyes and pale skin and some scientists speculate that some of their genes may have survived, though this is controversial).

    Let's see.  The first month I ate mostly one thing, cultured raw never been frozen grass grazed butter.  I know that was a big change from vegan low fat, but I felt I needed it.  It felt good to me, and looked good on me etc... Then, I added a half an orange per day.  I did drink celery juice too.  No liver, no organs.  About four months later I had two meals that had wheat.  Then for about a full year I ate about 1/2 orange per day or equivalent of other fruit.  Then I went vegan + kombucha drink for three weeks.  It made me feel very foggy.  Then I went back to low carb for a little over a year.  Then I took a bite of rice one time.  Then about a month later I drank about 1/4 of a green smoothie.  The smoothie left me acutely ill, serious.  Then back to low carb for about seven months.  Then, and until now ... I haven't been low to ZC for more than probably a few days straight at a time.

    It seems whenever I'm eating close to ZC for a few weeks, the sweet starts.  It doesn't feel bad.  It's just unusual for me.

[RawZi]

    I forgot, but remember now.  Within the month before the bite (part of a slice of sushi roll) of rice, I ate 1 boiled potato with no salt nor fat nor flavoring, and I ate a dry slice of toast with nothing on it nor with it.  The potato was followed by my legs breaking out in a painful unusual rash.

[chucky]

What more symptoms does excess blood protein give ? Does it make one sensitive to heat or more anxious ? Increased heart rate ?

[carnivorous]

What more symptoms does excess blood protein give ? Does it make one sensitive to heat or more anxious ? Increased heart rate ?

I'm fairly certain now my experience had nothing to do with excess protein, aside from perhaps the weight gain.  The weight might not have even gone on as fat if I weren't deficient in some nutrient...

[PaleoPhil]

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/how-long-does-it
-take-to-clear-excess-protein-from-the-blood/msg34676/?topicseen#new

... I haven't been low to ZC for more than probably a few days straight at a time.

    It seems whenever I'm eating close to ZC for a few weeks, the sweet starts.  It doesn't feel bad.  It's just unusual for me.

OK, then you likely didn't have enough time on ZC or VLC to become fat adapted. The sweetness also kicked in for me after a few weeks, then mostly cleared up again after another few weeks of ZC. After a while the sweet taste only appeared after eating a lot more fat than normal and at this point I don't remember the last time I had it. It seems to be normal and I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.

[RawZi]

OK, then you likely didn't have enough time on ZC or VLC to become fat adapted. The sweetness also kicked in for me after a few weeks, then mostly cleared up again after another few weeks of ZC.

Then for about a full year I ate about 1/2 orange per day or equivalent of other fruit.  Then I went vegan + kombucha drink for three weeks.  It made me feel very foggy.  Then I went back to low carb for a little over a year.  

    That's what I'm saying.  A cup of strained raw celery juice and a half a regular size raw orange a day, and then three full meals a day of cultured raw grassfed butter and raw pastured eggs/egg yolks a day with a little raw grassfed meat each day for a year each at a time, I think that's low carb long enough to be adapted.  Either the sweet aftertaste of eggs and water is good or I'll need years each time to get adapted.  I could be wrong.  I don't know all the science.  I just know my experience.  

[PaleoPhil]

    That's what I'm saying.  A cup of strained raw celery juice and a half a regular size raw orange a day, and then three full meals a day of cultured raw grassfed butter and raw pastured eggs/egg yolks a day with a little raw grassfed meat each day for a year each at a time, I think that's low carb long enough to be adapted.   

So were you "low to ZC" for more than a few days at a time after all, and how low is "low"? I'm trying to reconcile your various reports so that I can understand what you were/are doing and what you were/are experiencing.

Either the sweet aftertaste of eggs and water is good or I'll need years each time to get adapted.  I could be wrong.  I don't know all the science.  I just know my experience.

It would also help if I could get a better handle on what you mean by "strangely sweet". Did it taste good or bad to you? Is it still occurring now or did it only occur in the past?

[Paleo Donk]

I just noticed something about all the younger guys that I talked about earlier in the thread that have problems with VLC/ZC. They all had severe deficiencies with HCL.

[carnivorous]

I just noticed something about all the younger guys that I talked about earlier in the thread that have problems with VLC/ZC. They all had severe deficiencies with HCL.

Lack of HCL absolutely will cause everything to go haywire, but I and several others have progressed from massive HCL doses with meals to none needed.  While it helped, it didn't seem to "fix" anything, and the huge HCL deficiency soon returned. 

I have to assume this is because of some other nutritional deficiency; maybe a nutrient involved in one of prerequisites for HCL?  Maybe it's a nutrient that, due to it's fat soluble status, will cause much greater difficulties with the lean male carnivorous dieters (who have much lesser fat soluble vit. stores, and burn through them faster)?

So I'm thinking A, D, E, and/or K2.  I've started tanning and consuming pastured fat/butter for D and K2.  I've eaten large amounts of liver in the past and if anything probably have excess vit A.  Vit A also balances with D, so my total lack of sunlight here in the northeast probably means the balance tilts heavily towards A.

I'm obviously not controlling variables here, but I'm more concerned about getting on track and ridding the worrying side effects.  Anyways I'm back to needing absurd amounts of HCL even with 40-50g protein meals, so my hypothesis is that once I'm down to needing no HCL again it will continue production on it's own and everything will work as intended.

I believe this all ties into the cramping/kidney stones many deal with on ZC diets as well, but I'm still exploring the mechanics of that.  The literature on K2 is lacking.

BTW this means I'm basically continuing my lower protein higher fat experiment, since I'm chasing the fat soluble vits and large protein meals are almost impossible for my stomach to handle right now.

[PaleoPhil]

Sodium chloride deficiency and potassium chloride deficiency have been connected to HCL deficiency, constipation, and low blood pressure among low carbers. I have low blood pressure, usually have constipation and still have suboptimal digestion, so I'm adding sea salt and kelp to my meals. So far with no noticeable benefit, though.

Sodium chloride deficiency:
"I have also learned that adequate salt intake is important and that a magnesium supplement may be needed. One can’t eat too much protein or you will feel ill and it may generate an insulin response sufficient to retard fat burning. ....

When you stop eating carbs your kidneys stop retaining salt. This release of salt in your urine will take fluid with it, something called diuresis, which will lower blood pressure. " http://www.drjaywortman.com/blog/wordpress/2008/12/31/how-to-reach-me/

Since Paleo diet gurus tend to recommend avoiding salt and since Dr. Wortman says that the kidneys excrete salt excessively on low carb diets, it makes sense that salt deficiency could be a problem for some low carb Paleo dieters.

Potassium chloride deficiency (http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Hydrochloric_acid/)

Low blood pressure, constipation and diabetes (and presumably insulin resistance) are also associated with hypothyroidism:
http://symptoms.wrongdiagnosis.com/cosymptoms/dehydration/hypothyroidism.htm
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/low-blood-pressure/ds00590/dsection=causes
http://thyroid.about.com/od/relatedconditions1/a/constipation.htm

Dr. Ron's Iodine Complex contains both iodine and potassium iodide, just like the Lugol's solution that was popular in the early 1900's before salt was commonly iodized. I'm

[Paleo Donk]

Carnivorous, I'm glad you pointed out the fact that HCL supplementation is not at all some kind of magical cure. I've recently posted in my journal how I think that it just masks symptoms of horrible digestion and probably does little to alleviate underlying causes, though its possible that it does allow you to start uptaking essential nutrition that you were missing and thus repair broken digestion, but I still don't think its enough for most people. The fact that now there are several observations of people going through this HCL supplementation cycle where they have to mega dose for a period of time and then quickly drop down and then mega-dose again does indicate that digestion remains impaired.

I'm not sure if nit-picking about certain minerals and vitamins will ever get anyone to the root of their problems - but it could again mask symptoms so it is something worth looking into. I do believe with good absorption of nutrition most of us will be able to handle almost any "natural' diet.

[djr_81]

My experience corroborates your post Phil.
After giving up carbs I found I had bouts of hypostatic orthotension (light-headed/dizziness upon standing indicative of low blood pressure). Things did get somewhat better each time I added a bit of sea salt to my meals. Since I began adding just a bit of aqueous electrolytes (much better ration of sodium to other salts) to my drinking water the H.O. went away. I find that the days I have little to no drinking water is followed by slight H.O. the next day.
It might be just in my head but my digestion seems a bit better with the electrolytes/water as well.
FWIW I would like to add some blood to my diet and see if this clears things up better but for now things are in check with minimal additives to my diet.

[chucky]

Sodium chloride deficiency and potassium chloride deficiency have been connected to HCL deficiency, constipation, and low blood pressure among low carbers. I have low blood pressure, usually have constipation and still have suboptimal digestion, so I'm adding sea salt and kelp to my meals. So far with no noticeable benefit, though.

Sodium chloride deficiency:
"I have also learned that adequate salt intake is important and that a magnesium supplement may be needed. One can’t eat too much protein or you will feel ill and it may generate an insulin response sufficient to retard fat burning. ....

When you stop eating carbs your kidneys stop retaining salt. This release of salt in your urine will take fluid with it, something called diuresis, which will lower blood pressure. " http://www.drjaywortman.com/blog/wordpress/2008/12/31/how-to-reach-me/

Since Paleo diet gurus tend to recommend avoiding salt and since Dr. Wortman says that the kidneys excrete salt excessively on low carb diets, it makes sense that salt deficiency could be a problem for some low carb Paleo dieters.

Potassium chloride deficiency (http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Hydrochloric_acid/)

Low blood pressure, constipation and diabetes (and presumably insulin resistance) are also associated with hypothyroidism:
http://symptoms.wrongdiagnosis.com/cosymptoms/dehydration/hypothyroidism.htm
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/low-blood-pressure/ds00590/dsection=causes
http://thyroid.about.com/od/relatedconditions1/a/constipation.htm

Dr. Ron's Iodine Complex contains both iodine and potassium iodide, just like the Lugol's solution that was popular in the early 1900's before salt was commonly iodized. I'm

That's true about potassium. I was constipated until I added potassium salt onto my food. Using PAN-SALT (sodium chloride, potassium chloride, magnesium sulfate, lysine, potassium iodide)

[carnivorous]

Sodium chloride deficiency and potassium chloride deficiency have been connected to HCL deficiency, constipation, and low blood pressure among low carbers. I have low blood pressure, usually have constipation and still have suboptimal digestion, so I'm adding sea salt and kelp to my meals. So far with no noticeable benefit, though.

The body has a remarkable ability to retain sodium.  It seems like the natural order to things is to excrete absolutely minimal amounts of sodium/other minerals in urine and sweat.  Ingesting salt simply upregulates the kidney's disposal of salt (and probably potassium, if you supplement that in great amounts.)  This switch can take some time (IME, weeks +,) so when one suddenly switches to raw meat + fat from SAD you'll experience bouts of low blood sodium.

I'm not sure if nit-picking about certain minerals and vitamins will ever get anyone to the root of their problems - but it could again mask symptoms so it is something worth looking into. I do believe with good absorption of nutrition most of us will be able to handle almost any "natural' diet.

I'm absolutely against "nit-picking" for certain vitamins or minerals.  The logic I'm using is that we absolutely know humans can thrive on plain meat and fat.  The possible problems include:

*That meat, amazingly, is no longer created equally due to ridiculous corn subsidies.  This creates less nutritious meat across the board, but mainly makes the fat nutrients FUBAR.

*That we no longer get nearly as much sun as we would have prior to civilization, clothes, sunscreen, and more ridiculous anti-sun dogma.  Vitamin D.  Fat soluble.

*That our "grass fed" meat is obviously not all created equally either.  Whether due to poor soil/grass or greedy lieing farmers, "grass-fed" is not a standard of quality.  See the widely varying colors of suet and butter.  Deeper yellow-orange fat clearly has greater fat-soluble nutrients.  Vitamin K2, probably more A, D, and E too.  "Arab groups also put a high value on butter, especially deep yellow-orange butter from livestock feeding on green grass in the spring and fall." (https://www.westonaprice.org/Why-Butter-Is-Better.html)

Zinc is needed for HCL production.  A lack of HCL causes a lack of zinc absorption, but so does a lack of K2.  K2 apparently is needed for mineral absorption.  K2 requires A + D to accomplish this.  Sorry for the lack of more technical terminology and references, I'm having a hell of a time finding where I read this; just trying to get my current thoughts out for now.

So what am I getting at?  HCL is obviously tremendously important for protein and mineral digestion and absorption; I propose that the lack of HCL production is due to poor mineral absorption from a lack of fat-soluble vitamins.  Eating excessive amounts of protein may further disrupt things by requiring far greater HCL and fat soluble vitamins; here we see how excess protein is damaging without sufficient accompanying NUTRITIOUS fat.  Supplementing with HCL thus proves to be a temporary bandage, while the real issue will never be resolved without adequate fat soluble vits.

Anyway, that's my best explanation of ZC issues to date.  Until I've got a good reason not to, I'll continue my pastured butter + small protein meals supplemented by HCL and tanning.

[Paleo Donk]

Nice post - it'd be nice if you started a journal so we could track your progress easier. Also, Yuri has recently had some success with butter as it seems to be one of the easier fats to digest and could be a good choice for those with impaired digestion.

[carnivorous]

Nice post - it'd be nice if you started a journal so we could track your progress easier. Also, Yuri has recently had some success with butter as it seems to be one of the easier fats to digest and could be a good choice for those with impaired digestion.

I'm planning on getting grass finished suet when possible, but for now pasteurized Kerrysgold butter is the only fat available that I trust is truly grass fed.  Good to hear it might be more easily digested. 

I've still got 90+ lbs of USWellness tallow laying around, but considering its paleness and gag-inducing taste I'm not sure that I trust it has the nutrients I'm seeking.  I actually picked up some duck lard at a local 'organic' market and it's a gorgeous deep yellow.  Unfortunately it's $10/lb.

[PaleoPhil]

I'm not sure if nit-picking about certain minerals and vitamins will ever get anyone to the root of their problems - but it could again mask symptoms so it is something worth looking into. I do believe with good absorption of nutrition most of us will be able to handle almost any "natural' diet.

At least you acknowledged that it's worth looking into, Paleo Donk, but I think the remark about Carnivorous' hypothesis (re: nutrititional deficiency as possibly underlying HCL deficiency) being nitpicking was uncalled for because nutrient deficiency, absorption and intake issues could potentially be at the root of some folks' problems. I agree with Carnivorous that one or more nutrient deficiencies (as well as GAP syndrome--which could underlie the deficiencies) could underlie HCL deficiency, so it relates directly to what you've been discussing regarding that. Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, Dr. Ron Schmid and others report success treating their patients with probiotics, targeted nutrient-rich foods, and food-based supplements (foodlements) where necessary when a generic healthy diet is not sufficient.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the answer for anyone here, but it's ironic that you dismissed it so easily without giving any indication that you've read much on it when you recently lectured someone else about not doing that. Did you check out any of my links? Sure, HCL alone has reportedly helped some, but many people have reported that HCL alone hasn't been sufficient, including "the majority" of Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride's patients who have tried it (see "GAP Syndrome," Wise Traditions UK 2010, http://vimeo.com/10507542) -- she only uses HCL after trying everything else -- and some folks here.

TigerLily and Satya at DC reported(http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/index.php?topic=521.msg22925#msg229250) that chloride tends to be low in carnivore-type diets and is necessary to produce HCL. Here's the source that TigerLily appears to have gotten her quote from and a couple more:

"The chlorides present in salt constitute the only readily available source of chlorides with which the body can manufacture hydrochloric acid, vital for proper digestion in the stomach. Thus, taking in a small amount of salt prior to the meal allows any deficiency of hydrochloric acid to be made up just before introducing new food." http://chishti.org/foods_of_the_prophet.htm

"The small amount of chlorine usually obtained in table salt as sodium chloride, is a vital and necessary nutrient. It is used by the body to manufacture hydrochloric acid in the stomach for the predigestion of protein." http://www.healingmatters.com/Deadly%20Deficiency%20Deliberately%20Decreed.html

"sodium chloride generates hydrochloric acid, one of the most important of ail digestive secretions." http://www.healthfree.com/celtic_sea_salt.html

Those sources aren't great, but the info does fit in nicely with the info Carnivorous shared and with other reports. For example, salt has been reported by Dr. Wortman and others to help with constipation and HCL deficiency is associated with constipation (see http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=Stomach%20acid%20deficiency%20%28Hypochlorhydria%29 and http://www.drz.org/asp/conditions/hcl_deficiency.asp).

Iodine deficiency is known to cause low thyroid function (see http://www.thyroid.org/patients/patient_brochures/iodine_deficiency.html and http://thyroid.about.com/cs/vitaminsupplement/a/iodine.htm), and low thyroid is known to slow HCl production (see "Maximize Your Progress with Hydrochloric Acid," http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article.aspx?ID=27 and "Hydrochloric Acid: Physiological Functions and Clinical Implications," http://www.life-enthusiast.com/index/Education/NutritionDiets/Hydrochloric_Acid), so iodine deficiency could be another nutritional deficiency underlying HCL deficiency.

Magnesium deficiency is also associated with hypothyroidism (see "What You Need To Know About The Benefits Of Magnesium," http://thyroid.about.com/b/2005/05/26/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-benefits-of-magnesium.htm).

Interestingly, wild seaweeds and seafoods tend to contain all the nutrients discussed above in this thread--potassium, sodium chloride, iodine and magnesium. Unfortunately, these are also some of the most expensive foods in inland areas. Generations ago the blood and organs of land mammals was probably higher in iodine, magnesium, salt and/or other nutrients before the depletion of soils by agriculture.

So HCL supplements may not be the whole answer, it may make sense for people to do what Dr. Campbell-McBride recommends and first make sure that they are promoting healthy gut flora and are getting enough nutrients (such as chloride, iodine and magnesium) in their diets before resorting to more extraordinary measures like HCL supplements (and heavy metal cleanses--which I think she handles via animal fats--liver flushes, "detoxes", etc.). Her approach of using HCL as a last step in the process to try when the other measures aren't sufficient seems to make sense. And Carnivorous approach seems rather similar--more comprehensive, rather than focusing so much on HCL.  I prefer to try healthy foods first, then foodlements, then supplements as a last resort and try to avoid prescription drugs altogether. However, I may try an HCL supplement again in the future if probiotic high and aged raw meats, foods rich in nutrients and animal fats, foodlements, etc. don't turn out to be sufficient for me. Maybe I require the combination of all these therapies (in the nearer term anyway) and maybe that's why HCL alone didn't work for me. I don't know and I don't make any claims--I'm open minded about it all.

[PaleoPhil]

The body has a remarkable ability to retain sodium.  It seems like the natural order to things is to excrete absolutely minimal amounts of sodium/other minerals in urine and sweat.  Ingesting salt simply upregulates the kidney's disposal of salt (and probably potassium, if you supplement that in great amounts.)  This switch can take some time (IME, weeks +,) so when one suddenly switches to raw meat + fat from SAD you'll experience bouts of low blood sodium.

Maybe, but I've been eating a RPD diet for more than just weeks and Dr. Wortman reports that his patients' experiences have not matched that claim, and other folks here and at other forums have reported benefits from adding some potassium chloride or sodium chloride back into their low-salt, meat-heavy diets. I doubt it would work for everyone, but it seems worth trying for me. Interestingly, a chiropractor did find my urinary salt levels to be low and he had recommended increasing my salt intake, but he seemed like a quack and I didn't consider that it might really be useful to do so until recently, thanks to what I've learned here and at another forum.

"grass-fed" is not a standard of quality.  See the widely varying colors of suet and butter.  Deeper yellow-orange fat clearly has greater fat-soluble nutrients.  Vitamin K2, probably more A, D, and E too.

Yellowness is also not a guarantee of quality, unfortunately. This suggestion of deep yellow color indicating 100% grassfed and high quality keeps coming up but it doesn't match what I've found at my local market, nor what I was told by the folks at the Hardwick Beef 100% grassfed farm, nor what Van and Delfuego were told by John Wood of the US Wellness 100% grassfed farm. There are two brands of 100% grassfed fats and fat-containing meats at my local market as well as a brand that sells pastured venison, bison and elk meats and all of them have fats much lighter in color than the very-yellow fat from an organic farm that is not 100% grassfed. The organic suet is very yellow but it is not 100% grassfed and other than the yellow color it has the same appearance and awful taste and texture of supermarket suet and is the WORST tasting, looking, and feeling brand sold at the market--not the best. So I don't think the color of fat is a good indicator of whether or not it is 100% grassfed or high quality. It's quite clear that grain-finished cattle can produce very yellow fat, and pretty crappy yellow fat at that.

There are multiple factors that determine how yellow beef fat will be. Van pointed out that Jersey cows and older females produce more yellow fat.

Slankers'grassfed tallow is off-white and the light yellow is only easily seen when the tallow is melted (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/all-suet-is-white). John Wood of US Wellness explained why the US Wellness 100% grassfed tallow is off-white instead of yellow :

From: "John Wood" <eathealthy@grasslandbeef.com>
Subject: Rendered fat from Wellness Meats - buyer beware. - Raw Paleo Diet Forum

Van,
 
Thank you for bringing this up . . . Interesting read.  I have very little spare time in my life and would have never known this was going on.
 
Our tallow has looked the same from day one.  Our omega 3 ratios have been stellar every time they were tested at the ISU meat science lab.  No starch is included in the diet from start to finish.
 
Note PDF attached with a the tallow demonstrating a better ratio of omega 6:3 than two lamb cuts tested in June.  Lamb will usually be hard to beat.  1.65:1 is pretty good compared to grain fed at 20:1.
 
The only things that make any sense are as follows on my best guess:
•   Jim Gerrish, PhD grazing guru, who worked for Univ. of Missouri for 20 plus years indicated the trick was to get cattle to gain in excess of 1.5 lbs. a day on quality forage and management to reduce the yellow fat.  If done properly you will not see the yellow fat.
•   Wheat pasture is famous for yellow fat and a lot of winter wheat pasture can be found in southern Oklahoma and North Texas.
•   We only harvest animals under 30 months of age.  If cows were in the mix, then one would expect to see some yellow fat.
•   The last explanation might be rendering technique involving temperature and how much material is separated off after melting.
In closing, we simply render the suet into tallow/lard like our ancestors did 150 years ago.  We add nothing to the product to enhance color, flavor etc.  It has always been pearly white in color.
 
Thank you for bringing this up and feel free to post the pdf.
 
John
 
"Our Animals Eat Right So You Can Too!
U.S. Wellness Meats
P.O. Box 9
204 East Lafayette
Monticello, MO  63457
PH: (877) 383-0051
Cell: (660) 341-2789
Fax: (573) 767-5475
URL: www.uswellnessmeats.com

Here's what John Wood wrote to Delfuego of ZIOH about this same issue: "Our marketing director looked up your blog and spotted a member who took us to task on the white tallow color last fall. I refuse to engage in blog arguments as there are no winners. plus I barely have time to live the way it is.

At the time, I did speak to a colleague that teaches meats at the Univ. of Missouri (Carol Lorenzon PhD) to help answer how you can produce yellow tallow. Number 1, you have animals between the ages of 3 and 6 that have stored up carotenes. The bovine has no surplus until after they hit ~ 30 months. As [they] roll past 6 years, and several gestations, cows will lose carotenes the rest of their lives as they age. Number 2, you have churn the tallow to add air which will make it light and fluffy and make it look like butter. As a kid, we were forced to churn butter with a hand churn. The more you churned it the brighter the yellow color. We do not kill cows and never will. This is a favorite trick in the grass-fed industry and technically still probably in bounds but we have never harvested a cow or bull. Only yearling cattle between 16 and 26 months of age on average. Time depends on genetics and grass growing conditions."

I believe he's wrong about fat having to be churned to be highly yellow, since the brightly yellow grain-finished fat that's sold in my market is clearly not churned. It still has its original shape. The rest of his comments appear to match what I've seen reported from several sources, including Hardwich Beef when I wrote them about this, if my memory serves me correctly.

Lex also attributed whitish fat from 100% grassfed animals to the animals being young (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/all-suet-is-white/msg9345/#msg9345). The tallow from 100% grassfed Burgundy pasture beef is also off-white (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/all-suet-is-white/msg10990/#msg10990) rather than yellow, as is the excellent quality 100% grassfed suet I get from Hardwick Beef.

John Wood was rather distressed that people were making claims about whitish color indicating that his tallow and suet are not 100% grassfed, so if anyone still doubts that whitish tallow and suet can be 100% grassfed, he probably would appreciate it if you ask him about it instead of posting such claims on the Internet--especially not accusations about "lieing farmers."

Zinc is needed for HCL production.

Thanks for sharing that. I have a history of zinc deficiency and I'm still slightly deficient despite eating tons of raw, 100% grassfed, wild and pastured red meats of many varieties, so that could also be a factor for me.

A lack of HCL causes a lack of zinc absorption, but so does a lack of K2. K2 apparently is needed for mineral absorption.

Interesting, I've experienced an improvement in dental health since I started taking a softgel form of K2, despite the fact that I had been eating raw organs, eggs, suet, marrow, duck legs and other food sources of K2. It seems that some people, like me, have sufficiently damaged intestines and deficiencies from the SAD that we need (temporarily, I hope) more than what raw food alone can provide.

HCL is obviously tremendously important for protein and mineral digestion and absorption; I propose that the lack of HCL production is due to poor mineral absorption from a lack of fat-soluble vitamins.  Eating excessive amounts of protein may further disrupt things by requiring far greater HCL and fat soluble vitamins; here we see how excess protein is damaging without sufficient accompanying NUTRITIOUS fat.  Supplementing with HCL thus proves to be a temporary bandage, while the real issue will never be resolved without adequate fat soluble vits.

Yes, I think you're onto something here, and this could explain why some people, like me, don't benefit from HCL and why some who benefit from HCL find that the benefit dissappears once they stop taking it--even after lengthy periods of taking it. Presumably the underlying intestinal damage has not fully healed and the malabsorption that results creates nutrient deficiencies that HCL supplements alone, and even with healthy diets, may not be sufficient to resolve in a reasonable amount of time.

[Paleo Donk]

PP, You've made a nice post but again I think I am being misinterpreted which is my own fault. I think its fun and challenging to find out what kind of foods, foodlements and supplements one can add to naturally heal the body. There are probably a great multitude of little dietary odds and ends that can use to abolish minor issues as many here have noted. This is great and all. So is being able to perfect masturbation so that you can achieve an amazing orgasm. But for those who can't get get it up in the first place, other methods are probably worth looking into.

Say, for instance that you knew you had gallstones, through ultrasound, then what do you think you would do? You would both try and find the best food/foodlement/supplement combination along with and more importantly a natural way to cleanse the liver. This would be a very pressing matter. I'm sure you've read my journal - I'm constantly on the look out for ways to improve health no matter what it is. I want to both provide my body with the right nutrition and attack the nasties with other powerful, yet safe 'alternative methods'. Unfortunately, there aren't many people here who have experience with liver flushing or heavy-metal detox but these methods could exponentially outweigh the benefits of all the other masturbatory efforts. I know it must have seemed like I didn't care that much about more conventional dietary methods first - which you rightly pointed out. I'm really trying to push a method that could really do great things for people with little risk - liver flushing. Heavy metal detox is a whole other matter but if you're like me with a mouth laced full of mercury amalgams and you can find a good dentist, its probably a good idea to go ahead and remove them towards the beginning of your path to wellness.

I have experimented with quite a bit and have all of the following at my disposal - dried seaweed, lots of sunlight, zinc, magnesium, french green clay, castor oil, apple cider vinegar, vitamin D, bones, honey, HCL, organs and more. I am all for finding the foods to make ill-health symptoms disappear and will vigorously try and find a solution with them. Though this really destroys simplicity, feels overwhelming and generally adds to my anxiety and addictive personality so can be an overall negative. I don't think my major problem - chronic fatigue - will get alleviated with even the best foods that I could find. Maybe I'm wrong and I suppose it will take years to figure it all out but this is where I'm placing my limp jimmy right now.

[TylerDurden]

Interesting re US Wellness meats comments. I originally came across negative comments about US Wellness meats on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group. I'm not actually 100% sure but I don't think the white/yellow fat issue was raised, it was just a complaint re the taste not being of 100% grassfed meats.

Hmm, I made a comment on the unhealthy nature of pemmican on another website in answer to a question on the subject, and also got a comment in the reader feedback section from US Wellness who sell a lot of the stuff.

[ys]

It is not just US Wellness.
Slanker's meat does not have yellow fat as well.  Suet has hint of yellow and sometimes orange, but meat almost exclusively has pearly white fat.

I've heard somewhere that very yellow meat fat comes from old animals who are not efficiently converting beta carotene into vitA.

[luis]

So, how much raw meat can a person eat safely on a daily basis? I know that there is no hard proof, but is someone consuming 1 kg of beef daily? More than that?