Veggies over fruits?

[proteus]

I think there is more to it than more meat means bigger brain, I mean lions don't have huge brains.  But I also think there is some truth to it, I just haven't unravelled it yet.  I think TD is correct though that it takes generations for degeneration to set it.  Omega-3s, for instance, are concentrated in sperm and mother's milk.  But each generation that consumes an omega-3 deficient diet leaves less for the next generation.

wake up and smell the coffee - half an ounce of chia seed oil contains as much omega 3 as the entire human brain.

http://www.amazon.com/Virgin-Chia-12oz-Glass-Bottle/dp/B004PWMQKG/ref=sr_1_1?s=miscellaneous&ie=UTF8&qid=1299883679&sr=1-1

that's actually why i don't use chia oil - it has TOO MUCH omega 3.  i just blend chia seeds in my Vitamix - they also add thickness to my smoothie.

[TylerDurden]

you seem to live in the fantasy world.  the studies could have proven that the brain decreased 8% but the cause of this is pure speculation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio

mice are herbivores, and have the same size brain as humans relative to their body mass.

You're not being too bright.  The fact is that those studies showed that brain-size decreased by 8 percent once we switched from the Palaeolithic era to the Neolithic era. The only major change around that time was a major reduction of animal food in the human diet and a corresponding consumption of grains, dairy and legumes. Given that the Eskimoes have the largest brain-sizes and were until recently eating all-animal food diets(well, 96 to 99 percent at least), that supports the notion that it was the eating of meat that made human brains bigger and that a reduction in meat-consumption led to a smaller brain-size.

[proteus]

Eating more meat didn't make Homo brains bigger, it allowed Homo brains to become bigger.

in your dreams ...

what about the opposing thumb ?  was that also due to high dietary fat intake ?

[proteus]

You're not being too bright.  The fact is that those studies showed that brain-size decreased by 8 percent once we switched from the Palaeolithic era to the Neolithic era. The only major change around that time was a major reduction of animal food in the human diet and a corresponding consumption of grains, dairy and legumes. Given that the Eskimoes have the largest brain-sizes and were until recently eating all-animal food diets(well, 96 to 99 percent at least), that supports the notion that it was the eating of meat that made human brains bigger and that a reduction in meat-consumption led to a smaller brain-size.

has it ever occurred to you that hunting requires greater intelligence than collecting welfare checks ?  you can feed a retard on welfare anything you want and his IQ is still going to be zero.

our brains are withering away because we don't need them any more.  eskimos need big brains because they live in an adverse environment.  

humans are on a fast course to becoming dumber than sh1t, and you aren't going to be able to stop this with any dietary guidelines.  you will have to get rid of welfare, unions, minimum wage laws and warning labels.

[TylerDurden]

in your dreams ...

what about the opposing thumb ?  was that also due to high dietary fat intake ?

  Err, ahem, primates have opposable thumbs like gorillas. That happened well before hominid brains got bigger.

[TylerDurden]

has it ever occurred to you that hunting requires greater intelligence than collecting welfare checks ?  you can feed a retard on welfare anything you want and his IQ is still going to be zero.

our brains are withering away because we don't need them any more.  eskimos need big brains because they live in an adverse environment. 

humans are on a fast course to becoming dumber than sh1t, and you aren't going to be able to stop this with any dietary guidelines.  you will have to get rid of welfare, unions, minimum wage laws and warning labels.

  You still haven't understood what on earth we are talking about. None of us are suggesting that eating meats or not eating meats makes one more or less intelligent within one generation. Clearly, given the evidence, it takes many generations for brains to get smaller or bigger. As for hunting, again that's wrong. After all, there are plenty of other hunter-gatherer tribes  with smaller brains than the Inuit who also lived in harsh environments(eg deserts etc.) and who hunted a lot.

[proteus]

  Err, ahem, primates have opposable thumbs like gorillas. That happened well before hominid brains got bigger.

so check this timeline for me:

1 - opposable thumb
2 - primates become most intelligent animals
3 - humans start to eat meat

wouldn't you say cause has to precede the effect ?

[TylerDurden]

so check this timeline for me:

1 - opposable thumb
2 - primates become most intelligent animals
3 - humans start to eat meat

wouldn't you say cause has to precede the effect ?

  You are again missing the point. If  opposable thumbs were so important, one would expect gorillas to be far more intelligent than they actually are. And the biggest rise in apeman brain-size in the Palaeolithic era occurred in tandem with a massive increase in meat-consumption by apemen.

[proteus]

the biggest rise in apeman brain-size in the Palaeolithic era occurred in tandem with a massive increase in meat-consumption by apemen.

i am not denying that the two are related.

i am also not denying that CO2 and global temperature is related.  unfortunately for Al Gore global temperature rise is the cause and CO2 increase is the effect.

in case of brain size and hunting lifestyle - the two apparently drove each other.  bigger brain made man able to hunt ( using weapons ) while a hunting lifestyle in turn put evolutionary pressure on man to grow an even bigger brain.

macronutrient breakdown of diet at best had a secondary role here. 

our brains became most powerful not because of what we ate but because of how we used to get that food - namely using weapons.  wolves, tigers and lions are relatively dumb despite being carnivores - because they don't need to make any special tools to hunt.

it is because humans have:

1 - an opposing thumb
2 - can't run very fast, and don't have huge claws

that the only way for us to hunt was by using brains. 

go back to the timeline - the cause must precede the effect.  how could we have started hunting BEFORE inventing weapons ?  and how could we have invented weapons if we needed meat to grow a brain that could invent them ?

your theory is bogus

[proteus]

in other words humans are top of the food chain because we are the smartest - not the other way around.

[magnetic]

you seem to live in the fantasy world.  the studies could have proven that the brain decreased 8% but the cause of this is pure speculation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio

mice are herbivores, and have the same size brain as humans relative to their body mass.

I don't see what that proves.  The brains of mice are mostly composed of neuronal bundles involved in maintaining homeostasis and motor control, with little devoted to cognitive tasks.  So it is irrelevant what the ratio of brain to body mass is with respect to frontal lobe development.  The brain grows from the stem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medulla_oblongata

In humans it can generally grow larger or smaller in any individual, and as TD pointed out it grows larger in Inuit.  But the added weight and volume takes place primarily in those regions not dedicated to basic vital functions.  You only need so much brain matter for hormonal regulation, motor control, and so on anyhow.

If mice are fed a diet at odds with their genetic programming, I would expect to see similar deficits in brain development.  For instance, feeding mice soy or meat instead of their preferred vegetation (I'm just speculating on the actual food to make the point).

[sabertooth]

The precursor to human intelligence was actually evolved long before the appearance of the great herbivore apes. The proto-primates were insectivores that had to develop a weaselly brain that was the template for human intelligence. The evolving primates were forced to abandon the insectivore way of life and evolved to eat more plants, but the essence of a carnivore lay dormant within recessive genes. These genes were reactivated in our ancestors with the reintroduction of a more carnivorous diet.

The addition of large amounts of animal flesh to the diet is what gave our ancestors the raw materials to power the next stage of mutations that resulted in greatly increased size and function of the brain. Without large amounts of animal proteins and fatty acids, those brain increasing mutations would not have happened.

Our genetic code experienced a quantum leap over the past couple of million of years that propelled us to the top of the food chain. The changes occured parallel with the larger reliance on meat. The corolation went hand in hand. The more meat the apeman ate the larger and more complex the brain became, the smarter they became the more meat they were able to attain,and so on. This is what drove us to the greatness of the top rankin preditor.

There are other forces involved in our rise to intellegence, but this is my theory in a nutshell.

[magnetic]

go back to the timeline - the cause must precede the effect.  how could we have started hunting BEFORE inventing weapons ?  and how could we have invented weapons if we needed meat to grow a brain that could invent them ?

your theory is bogus

No, the weapons likely evolved.  You are posing a scenario where humans suddenly invented all kinds of weapons (strawman argument).  The first hunting weapons were probably pokey sticks used to spear fish in water or something crude like that.  Fish are meat but unlike mastadons we don't need to fear them (unless we are talking about whales or something).  Eating that meat allowed the brain to grow bigger when the DNA mutated in such an advantageous direction, which was selected for and favored by the environment.

You are saying that the current environment (no hunting, everyone on welfare or entitled) is, evolutionarily, one in which smaller/less developed brains can flourish and be selected for, as if smaller brains were an advantage.  This is incorrect.  

The advantage has nothing to do with brain size (after all, I know some geniuses who have not worked in years and are basically milking the system, not that I advocate that).  Social patterns and norms are such that mates are not chosen, at least primarily, based on intellect.  What reason is there for people to seek a mate smarter than them, or less intelligent?  Such considerations have little merit in modern industrial society.  Since mates who seek to reproduce and eventually become a family unit also must sustain their offspring for many years in order for them to carry on the genes of the parents, it seems as though the hallmark of success is stability.  I see it as irrelevant whether that comes through welfare or a steady job (or jobs).  

Your theory also assumes that intelligence is hereditary, but heritage may be a small or insignificant factor.  Environmental factors such as nutrition may be more important.

[magnetic]

wake up and smell the coffee - half an ounce of chia seed oil contains as much omega 3 as the entire human brain.

http://www.amazon.com/Virgin-Chia-12oz-Glass-Bottle/dp/B004PWMQKG/ref=sr_1_1?s=miscellaneous&ie=UTF8&qid=1299883679&sr=1-1

that's actually why i don't use chia oil - it has TOO MUCH omega 3.  i just blend chia seeds in my Vitamix - they also add thickness to my smoothie.

Chia seeds contain ALA (Alpha-linolenic acid). An ounce contains 13% oil (57% of which is ALA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_seed)

It is EPA (Eicosapentanoic acid) that the body uses to make eicosanoids, plostaglandins, etc... so your body must convert ALA into EPA.  This is a 3 step process that requires Delta 6 Desaturase in the first step, elongase enzyme in the second step, and Delta 5 Desaturase in the third step.  It is an inefficient process, the maximum that can be expected is about 6% of the ALA being converted to EPA.  

But Delta 6 Desaturase and Delta 5 Desaturase are needed by the body for metabolizing Omega-6 fatty acids, so competition for the use of these enzymes usually means even less than 6% ALA is converted into EPA.

Half an ounce of Chia seeds will give you 4915mg*0.5*6%=147.45mg of usable Omega-3 fatty acids most optimistically, but realistically it will be half that or lower, on the order of 50-75mg.  You are getting less Omega-3 FAs from Chia seeds than you think.

And with your Chia seeds you also get a dose of antinutrients (phytates and lectins).  

Large amounts of seeds are hardly paleo, the humans that thrived and passed on their genes got most of their Omega-3 FAs from meat and fish, not seeds.  Better to stick with raw meat.

For more information see:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/research-review-extremely-limited-synthesis-of-long-chain-polyunsaturates-in-adults-implications-for-their-dietary-essentiality-and-use-as-supplements.html

and Primal Body, Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas

[proteus]

what you all fail to realize is human brain takes more than a decade to grow to full size.  most other animals have their brains develop in a little more than a year.  if any other animal on whatever diet it had continued to grow its brain for 10+ years well it would be like a martian.  simply put diet is NOT a factor in brain size at all.

[TylerDurden]

what you all fail to realize is human brain takes more than a decade to grow to full size.  most other animals have their brains develop in a little more than a year.  if any other animal on whatever diet it had continued to grow its brain for 10+ years well it would be like a martian.  simply put diet is NOT a factor in brain size at all.

  Wrong again. Carnivores tend to be more intelligent than herbivores, so clearly diet is an important factor as regards intelligence.

[proteus]

 Wrong again. Carnivores tend to be more intelligent than herbivores, so clearly diet is an important factor as regards intelligence.

and doctors tend to be more intelligent than janitors - this obviously could only be because doctors eat a healthier diet !

also animals are more intelligent than plants, so this definitely proves that chlorophyll causes brain damage !

[miles]

what you all fail to realize is human brain takes more than a decade to grow to full size.  most other animals have their brains develop in a little more than a year.  if any other animal on whatever diet it had continued to grow its brain for 10+ years well it would be like a martian.  simply put diet is NOT a factor in brain size at all.

But their brains don't continue to develop...

Proteus do you live under a bridge?

Read what Sabertooth wrote.

[magnetic]

what you all fail to realize is human brain takes more than a decade to grow to full size.  most other animals have their brains develop in a little more than a year.  if any other animal on whatever diet it had continued to grow its brain for 10+ years well it would be like a martian.  simply put diet is NOT a factor in brain size at all.

Your argument here neither supports nor refutes the nutrition theory of human brain size development.  

One could argue that since the human brain develops in over a decade, nutrition is vitally important during that time, affecting how large it grows.  Or one could argue that it isn't, that nutrition is at best secondary to other environmental pressures (you suggested hunting/using the brain for survival).  But I don't see how length of development (10+ years versus one) supports one theory over the other.  

[sabertooth]

Too much two dimensional thinking on a multi-dimensional subject

The fact is the genetic code is a multidimensional phenomenon that is still not fully understood. It has the capacity to proactively adapt to both positive and negative environmental conditions. Our particular code could of became attuned to the reality that larger brains gave us a survival advantage, and there was a perfect storm of occurrences, primarily the addition of Foods rich in proteins DHA, and other brain building fatty acids that are primarily responsible for the martian like qualities of the human brain.

The Idea that something like chia seeds could provide the same level of nutrition that lead to the development of the human mind is ridiculous.

There is an other nutritional based theory that could explain the human brains great leap forward prior to the development of sophisticated hunting techniques. Tribes of ape-men who gathered mollusk, shellfish,snails, crabs and fish that were caught by hand without the need for sophisticated hunting methods. The coastal and creek dwellers had found the ultimate source of brain food.

The high DHA content of their food source could be the main component that facilitated the epigenetic mutations that lead to the epic size and power of the human mind. The high level of eicosanoid generating DHA within the diet of coastal dwellers could in itself have triggered the genetic code to forge the changes needed to build such a brain. Without the large amount of DHA provided by cracking open shell fish or whatever else they could capture on the waters edge, then the evolution of our minds would have remained retarded.

The land based ancestors of Dolphins and whales had also found an easy source of nutrient dense food by the waters edge, and they had evolved into the second most intellectual animal species while on a carnivorous diet. If they had the advantage of thumbs the perhaps they could have developed an intelligence superior to ours, but because they lack the hands to construct tools and build establishments, they remain second best, but I do wonder what powers of consciousness they do possess even with their handicap.

[sabertooth]

http://www.economist.com/node/16214142

[sabertooth]

The house of cards which is the human brain and the intelligence contained within, is precariously perched , and was built on a foundational diet high in Fatty acids and proteins derived from animal foods. These animal food elements are essential for maintaining optimal function. The modern diets that are devoid of the DHA rich foods that were used by the ape men to develop and maintain larger brains, are obviosly responsible for the decline in brain size and function of modern people . This decline is easily measured by basic scientific inquiry. The study's that prove that even slight deficiency in DHA can lead to retardation, as well as severe health issues are extremely convincing.

On a personal note, I have tried flax oil and even ate some soaked chia seeds, and had terrible experiences with decline in health and mental function. (Chia and flax are not fit for human consumption, based on my own experience) Consider yourself warned, if you are one of the poor fools who still believe otherwise.

On an other personal note, I ate about a pint of raw oysters last night and feel such foods have helped me reached a new peak of metal acuity. Its amazing how just a few servings of raw sea food a week can improve ones thinking. This is more than just my imagination, before this diet I had sever decline in mental functioning and clarity of thought, as well as a plethora of physical health issues, that kept me from even being able to be happy. Now I have found a happiness that I don't think was possible before,  which is a good sign that I am doing something right. Not only My own happiness, but I have applied what I have learned to raising my children and so far the results are amazing.

[proteus]

look guys, your arguments are mostly crap, but thank you for bringing up the whole DHA vs ALA issue.  i heard that fish oil is the best source of W3 before, and bought fish oil capsules for my parents to help with THEIR diet, but for myself i continued relying on blended seeds ( hemp and chia )

i didn't think conversion rate was so low.  now i will either add some fish oil to my own diet or increase my seed-based W3 intake by going for that pure chia oil after all, rather than blending seeds.  

if ALA is just a precursor, it makes me less afraid of overdosing on it.

[miles]

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pHINwjeuF9gC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=DHA+in+ruminant+fat&source=bl&ots=_qTcTbaDfh&sig=cqNlpyarrxI32C10T25q63NydaA&hl=en&ei=uqR7TdeSA5KHhQeuma3zBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=DHA%20in%20ruminant%20fat&f=false

[proteus]

On a personal note, I have tried flax oil and even ate some soaked chia seeds, and had terrible experiences with decline in health and mental function. (Chia and flax are not fit for human consumption, based on my own experience) Consider yourself warned, if you are one of the poor fools who still believe otherwise.

seeds are packed with enzyme inhibitors specifically to prevent getting digested so they can pass through your digestive system and plant themselves in the soil intact.  this is why at the very least you have to soak and blend them BUT i think it may not be enough.  i think consuming the oil extracted from them would be much better.  have you tried using oil extracted from flax or chia ?

On an other personal note, I ate about a pint of raw oysters last night and feel such foods have helped me reached a new peak of metal acuity. Its amazing how just a few servings of raw sea food a week can improve ones thinking. This is more than just my imagination, before this diet I had sever decline in mental functioning and clarity of thought, as well as a plethora of physical health issues, that kept me from even being able to be happy. Now I have found a happiness that I don't think was possible before,  which is a good sign that I am doing something right. Not only My own happiness, but I have applied what I have learned to raising my children and so far the results are amazing.

i would LOVE to add raw seafood to my diet.  do you know what is the parasite situation with oysters ?  shrimp ?