Some questions

[Odin]

Hi,

first my questions and then for those who are interested more on how I got here.

1. Does anyone know a source for grass fed beef and other meat in Germany?
I went to a few organic butchers and they looked at me with big eyes when I asked them about grass fed beef. No one here has a clue. Another one I called up and talked to. He promised to find out and call me back which he never did.
The response was more like "It's organic. The cows are only fed organically grown corn, etc.. So, what is your problem?" ;-)

2. Plastic- I read that a number of people receive their meat shrink wrapped in plastic.
Unless it is a special kind of plastic, that to me seems not like a good idea.
Plastic containers like plastic bottles, etc. release chemicals which make their way into the food that is in the container and eventually into your organism. Traces can be found in your blood. Many of these chemicals (don't know the English term; in German it's Weichmacher, meaning stuff to soften something) are similar to estrogen and thus responsible for among other ailments a lower sperm count.
Recently a documentary came out from an Austrian director. It's called Plastic Planet: http://www.plastic-planet.at/
In it he had his blood analysed and they found flame retardants among other stuff.

3. Storing meat and fish- So how does it work? Let's say I've found a good butcher for getting grass fed beef. How long can I leave it in the fridge if I wanted to eat it raw?
What about fish? I assume that needs to be eaten the same day and not all fish is suitable or is it? I just know that if I wanted to make sushi I had to ask the guy at the fish shop to sell me fish that is suited, i.e. fresh enough, to be eaten raw.

4. Parasites- I read in posts on this forum that the danger of parasites in raw meat is overrated, because now the standards in developed world are so high. That might be and the year long experience of people here seems to bear that out.
Still I know from my family and friends that some ancestors' jobs like 80 to 120 years ago was to just look at meat all day to check for Trychnins. So at that time there must have been some cases bad enough to justify for employing people full time to just check.

I'm 35 years now.
When I was a teenager I had skin problems, pimples. Following a recommendation I dropped eating pork, which immediately had a good effect on my skin. I then found out that also beef and sugary stuff was bad for my skin.
Ten years ago I became vegetarian, eating fish occasionally. I still had skin problems which would only disappear when I cut out all animal fats.
I'd often eaten raw grains, ground and soaked over night. I got a very acidic stomach from that.
About a month ago I came across an article about Paleo diet, which made a lot of sense to me. Switching for me wasn't that difficult as I had gotten rid of sugars and processed food years ago.
The effect on my digestion was very good. The acidic stomach was gone and I could eat eggs again, which before caused stomach pain after only one egg. Now I often have a three egg omelot.
But, I also ate beef to get the protein and found out that again I get pimples in my face and on my back. So apparently my body is not so suited to it. That beef was fried, though. Chicken has been better to digest.
And I mostly eat fish now for my protein and fat requirements, so far mostly fried, though, unless I eat sushi or sashimi.
Besides the so far fried meat, eggs, and fish I eat mostly raw vegetables and some fruit.
I also practice yoga and have to say that I know quite a number of very strong yogis who've been vegetarians for many years. Also the old yoga scriptures recommend not to eat fish, meat and eggs.
I also recently finished reading Born to Run. The amazing Tarahumara Indian runners mainly seems to rely on a corn based diet and many of the top ultra runners seems to be vegans or vegetarians.
So, I'm still making up my mind, testing stuff out and seeing how I react to it. So far, cutting out the carbs has been a good experience. But how to get the protein I'm not so sure yet. Beef seems to work for many, not so well for me apparently, as the pimples show up. Not sure, if only fish is the answer.
Anyway, I'll try to give raw animal food a try as it makes sense to me.

[majormark]

3. Storing meat and fish- So how does it work? Let's say I've found a good butcher for getting grass fed beef. How long can I leave it in the fridge if I wanted to eat it raw?
...

You can store meat in glass jars or in a glass pot (like I do). Do not worry about plastic too much, unless you are using it for everything.

As for the period, depends on your taste. In your case you may try to keep it for a day or two max.

[TylerDurden]

There are 1 or 2 German members who will hopefully be able to give you some advice. it's been pointed out that Germany is pretty bad re finding high-quality grassfed meats, but, usually, after a dedicated search people admit to finding enough sources.

I was much the same in London, UK.I'd also assumed that grassfed, organic meats were very rare to find, and incredibly expensive. However, after a long search, I eventually discovered farmers' markets all over the place and searched for grassfed meat farms on the Internet, so I found plenty of sources in the end.

I sometimes get raw wild game when in Austria. This is only possible when in season. I'm not sure how easy it is to get such in Germany.

I don't believe in the plastic issues. For one thing, those meats aren't kept in plastic for very long, only some weeks after slaughter. And it takes years for sufficient microtraces of pollutants from the plastic to leach into foods/water. Plus, there are microtraces of all kinds of elements and compounds in all bodies, albeit in most cases, these are too small to have any real effect. For example, all humans contain a microtrace of uranium in our bodies, but it doesn't harm us because it's too small an amount.

Re storage:-  When I first started eating rawpalaeo as a newbie, I couldn't handle the taste of raw meats left in the fridge for more than 2, maybe 3 days as I could only handle the taste of completely fresh raw meats at first. Over the next few months, I was able to handle and enjoy the taste of raw meats left in the fridge for much longer periods(up to 2 weeks). Eventually, I got used to and enjoyed  the taste of "high-meat"(raw meat aged for c. 1 month). I guess what I'm trying to say is that raw meat doesn't "go bad" as such(unless not exposed to oxygen for a long time?). It all depends on your preferences and what you're used to.

Parasites are more of an issue if one is on a cooked diet. The interaction isn't too pleasant. But, the very few incidents reported by RPDers invariably involve minor passing of parasites via stools after a few weeks, and no actual symptoms as such(plus both incidents I recall involved travelling to tropical Africa). Simply put, hysteria re parasites is unnecessary given its rarity among RPDers. More to the point, there are various herbal anti-parasitic remedies against parasites and ubiquitous anti-parasite drugs available all over the place, so in the extreme unlikelihood you did get parasites, you could get rid of them any time.

As for beef, why not try raw lamb instead or some other raw meat?

1 last thing:- it is a common (though not all-pervasive) characteristic that when people turn to eating a 100% raw vegan diet for a long time, they become increasingly unable to handle the digestion of any animal foods. This is because the body has to produce different enzymes and other processes in order to digest plant foods  than when digesting animal foods, so not eating animal foods for a long time makes the body cease support for digesting animal foods. The same works the other way round. For example, when I went extremely low carb()<1%) for long periods, I would find my body increasingly unable to handle the digestion of raw fruits, but once I quickly upped my plant-food-intake, I had no such problems any more as my body got used to digesting them again.

[Odin]

Thanks already for the detailed replies.

Grass fed beef really seems to be difficult to find here in Germany. I already checked also the internet to no avail.
But the farmer markets and going directly to farms are a good idea. Actually, come to think of it, there are some farms that specialize in raising Galloway or Angus cattle.
Game should also be possible to find here.

Regarding the plastic- I wouldn't panic, but still try to reduce exposure as much as possible, for example not buy water in plastic bottles unless you're travelling through India :-)

Regarding storage- Can you just store the meat in the fridge?
Normally you'd get it wrapped in paper from the butcher. You'd then take it out and put it in a glass jar, which you keep in the fridge, right?

I'll think I'll start with Tartar, i.e. ground beef with some minced onions and an egg yolk.
Good to hear that cases of parasites are so rare.
Do most people here who do RPD eat beef as opposed to fish?

[RawZi]

Grass fed beef really seems to be difficult to find here in Germany. I already checked also the internet to no avail.
But the farmer markets and going directly to farms are a good idea. Actually, come to think of it, there are some farms that specialize in raising Galloway or Angus cattle.
Game should also be possible to find here.
...
Normally you'd get it wrapped in paper from the butcher. ...
Do most people here who do RPD eat beef as opposed to fish?

    Hi Odin.  Nice to meet you.

    I think nicola has posted a number of good sources in Germany to our rpf here.  I think they are either Steiner/biodynamic or something like that.  Maybe do a search on the site using her name.  It may be too hard to find that way, so maybe ask her. 

[William]

1. Does anyone know a source for grass fed beef and other meat in Germany?

Beware the soppy language problem. What we need is grass-finished beef.

I went to a few organic butchers and they looked at me with big eyes when I asked them about grass fed beef. No one here has a clue. Another one I called up and talked to. He promised to find out and call me back which he never did.
The response was more like "It's organic. The cows are only fed organically grown corn, etc.. So, what is your problem?" ;-)

Better to ask farmers and/or slaughterhouse/abattoir.

2. Plastic- I read that a number of people receive their meat shrink wrapped in plastic.

Everything I get is frozen and wrapped in plastic or plasticized butcher paper. I think it makes little difference while frozen, but when I thaw it I either put it directly in the dryer or in a glass bowl in the refrigerator.

3. Storing meat and fish- So how does it work? Let's say I've found a good butcher for getting grass fed beef. How long can I leave it in the fridge if I wanted to eat it raw?

I dry almost everything.
The principle seems to be that for me aged (rotten) can be good, but moldy is always bad. All the grass-finished beef I get has been dry-aged by the butcher for 3 weeks.

What about fish?

I don't eat fish.

4. Parasites- I read in posts on this forum that the danger of parasites in raw meat is overrated, because now the standards in developed world are so high.

Parasites are not a problem for strict raw eaters.

When I was a teenager I had skin problems, pimples.

I had skin problems all my life until I started strict raw zero carbohydrate. No more now.

About a month ago I came across an article about Paleo diet, which made a lot of sense to me.

There are more versions of the paleo diet than there are gurus preaching it. I think that it is high fat moderate meat and some innards like liver & kidney. This is from years of experience and  reading the results of fellow experimenters.
It's also the most difficult to do, and needs the incentive of a diagnosis of fatal/terminal disease, or the horrible crippling modern auto-immune disease like diabetes.
Raw zero carb needs pure fat and meat, not available to me but I do OK with the back fat of grain-finished (not fodder-fed) oxen, and meat from grass-finished.

Note that I have had too many problems with just raw, apparently due to allergens in it, so I dry and render and eat pemmican and raw egg yolks.
http://www.traditionaltx.us/images/PEMMICAN.pdf

Pork where I live is inedible, and only last week found a source that tastes good. I only have to drive 500 km (round trip) to get it.

This is worth reading if you are serious:
http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/about22.html

IMHO we are natural fativores.

[TylerDurden]

I don't think RPDers generally use glass jars for storing raw meats(unless making "high-meat"). Normally, my raw meat is already vacuum-packed on sale(though not the raw seafood), and I then place it all in the fridge as normal. Of course, I sometimes don't finish a particular piece of meat in 1 go  so routinely leave it in the fridge open to the air, and eat it later.

I find it best to eat a diet consisting of a mixture between raw meat from land mammals and raw seafood. Sometimes, I might be forced to eat raw grainfed/grain-finished meats for whatever reasons(eg:- social occasions etc.) and the raw seafood is mostly wildcaught and has a better omega-3 ratio by comparison. On the other hand, past experiments on diets consisting mostly of raw seafood but not any raw meat from land mammals didn't work out healthwise for me.

[majormark]

Looks like there are two entries for Germany on WAPF site, they could be useful:

http://www.westonaprice.org/chapters/index.php

[Arthas_]

That beef was fried, though. Chicken has been better to digest.

I'm guessing It's been used some vegetable oil in the frying, in that case it may be responsible for the pimples you got.

[Odin]

Thanks again for the info.
Majormark, thanks for the Weston Price Chapters link. Yes, there are two persons, who I'll contact and see if they know some good sources.

Arthas, yes I'm sure the beef was fried in vegetable oil. What is your recommendation and why?

[Arthas_]

But, I also ate beef to get the protein and found out that again I get pimples in my face and on my back. So apparently my body is not so suited to it. That beef was fried, though.

Arthas, yes I'm sure the beef was fried in vegetable oil. What is your recommendation and why?

When analyzing foods you are sensible to, you have to be carefull to separate all the variables and also notice the details. You are blaming on the beef meat, though (high omea 6 and  peroxidized)vegetable oil is a big offender(highly inflammatory). Frying is also notorious for causing bad reactions. I guess you should try some raw beef, or in case you are not convinced about raw, you can have it boiled.

My best advice regarding fats is to get natural fats. Raw is best. So any animal fat is good, given it's been fed a natural diet. So always aim for grassfed ruminants. Vegetable oils are highly processed and very high in omega 6(low omega 3 is related to pimples). Of course cold pressed oils are better, but then you need to consume it without applying any heat to eat. But again most of them are high in omega 6, so cold pressed won't make it much better. The exceptions are coconut and palm oil. Olive oil is not all that bad, since most of it is MUFA, but still the W6/W3 ratio is not ideal. Other fats you may want to avoid is pig and chicken fats. Omnivores tend to be more sensible regarding fat content, when fed grains. So it won't be much better then the average vegetable oil.

If you are not familiar with the pufa issue I suggest you google "dangers of pufas". There are also very good articles about fats on WAPF, by Mary Enig.

[Odin]

Interesting. Thanks

Still some questions- What is difference between grass finished and gras fed? You're writing yourself "grassfed ruminants" but pointed out before that it should be  grass-finished.
And what are "ruminants"? I couldn't find the term in the leo.org dictionary.

I've mostly used olive oil for frying. Cold pressed, virgin. However, I heard that frying destroys most of the good stuff.
I'll try out the raw meat part. Starting with minced meat, like tatar with egg yolk, a bit of mustard and some onions. Today I bought some grass finished lamb and had some tatar. Great taste. I'll see how my body reacts to it.
The butcher wanted to sell me a more expensive lamb meat with less fat when I told him that I wanted to make tatar out of it. But I asked him to give me the normal one with more fat :-)

Re PUFA (I guess it means poly unsaturated fats) and MUFA (mono) I don't know much except that traditionally one has been told that unsaturated is much better than saturated. However, that doesn't seem to be true as saturated fats like coconut fat seem to be of many benefits.

Yesterday I glanced through the Acne Diet site. It looks quite interesting. He writes about 'dirty' protein. I'm not sure what he means yet, but there seem to be similarities to my own experiences.

[cliff]

If your gonna fry meat use coconut oil

[majormark]

By the way, get an ear to this talk: http://www.oneradionetwork2.com/mp3/health/diet/bigelsen_harvey_live_blood_analysis_march_18_10.mp3

You will get a better understanding about germs, bacteria etc.

[Arthas_]

Still some questions- What is difference between grass finished and Grass fed? You're writing yourself "grassfed ruminants" but pointed out before that it should be  grass-finished.

That wasn't me, it was Willian I guess. But anyway, he's right. Actually you shouldn't bother about what is called, just make sure it's 100% grassfed, which means it's not been fed any grains at all. Some times they happen to say it's grassfed meat, thought the animal has been fed some grains in the last few weeks or months before slaughter, in order to fatten it. In this case its grassfed/grain finished. What you aim for is grassfed/grass finished  . Re ruminants, just google it. "Any of various hoofed, even-toed, usually horned mammals of the suborder Ruminantia, such as cattle, sheep, goats, deer, and giraffes, characteristically having a stomach divided into four compartments and chewing a cud consisting of regurgitated, partially digested food." Basically herbivores with 4 stomachs.

Interesting. Thanks
I've mostly used olive oil for frying. Cold pressed, virgin. However, I heard that frying destroys most of the good stuff.

Sorry, but what's the point of getting cold pressed virgin olive oil if you are gonna fry with it. Olive oil is far from being suited for frying. Pufas (poly unsaturated fatty acids) and mufas (to a least extent) are very sensible, and degrade when heat is applied to it. You should be using coconut oil, palm oil, or highly saturated animal fats, which resist better to high temperatures. The dangers of frying is not about destroying nutrients (which it does), the biggest problem is the creation of toxins(maillard reactions), and the denaturing it promotes. I personally don't like olive oil, but then if you think its good for you, use it on salads and cold dishes.

Interesting. Thanks
Re PUFA (I guess it means poly unsaturated fats) and MUFA (mono) I don't know much except that traditionally one has been told that unsaturated is much better than saturated. However, that doesn't seem to be true as saturated fats like coconut fat seem to be of many benefits.

You are right about the PUFA and MUFA. I really suggest you read good articles about fats. You see, its a big problem today, because it's everywhere. The main press will say vegetable oils are healthfull and saturated fats will clog your arteries. That is not true and there aren't scientific studies to back it up. I had a great time reading into the history of margarine, trans fats and all the tricks used by the oil industry to make us believe their product is healthfull.

Yesterday I glanced through the Acne Diet site. It looks quite interesting. He writes about 'dirty' protein. I'm not sure what he means yet, but there seem to be similarities to my own experiences.

Some people claim that animal proteins(not so much chicken or fish, but mainly red meat) are hard to be metabolized and sometimes it goes into your system undigested thus causing problems. It kind of clogs the lymphatic system and ultimately cause acne. I don't really believe this. I mean if proteins go undigested through you system, then yeah it'll cause lots of problems (acne included). The point is that red meat is easy (or should be) to be digested. As tyler said, after years of vegetarianism, you'll indeed have problems digesting it. Though it's just a matter of adaptation. The exception is when you develop specific conditions such as leaky gut syndrome or copper toxicity. In these cases you might have trouble digesting red meat initially and thus have to be carefull to not overeat. But then again the problem is not the meat itself but rather your body.

Some proteins though, are indeed considered to be hard to digest. Those are gluten and milk protein. Some people don't have problems with dairy, but many do. My suggestion is to avoid it.

[William]

What is difference between grass finished and gras fed? You're writing yourself "grassfed ruminants" but pointed out before that it should be  grass-finished.

All beef cattle are grassfed AFAIK, they are in Canada anyway. Most are then finished (fattened) on commercial fodder (don't ask - it would turn your stomach) in feedlots, this is the beef that is sold in common foodstores.
Small farms such as those here in Eastern Canada finish beef cattle on cereal grains/corn.
A very few (I know of only 2 in driving range) never feed the cattle anything but grass - this has the right proportion of omega 3 to omega 6, and is what we call grass-finished.

And what are "ruminants"? I couldn't find the term in the leo.org dictionary.

Ruminants are animals that chew their cud.
Translate.google.com has wiedergekäutes Futter.

[Odin]

Great, guys. Thanks again for the detailed information. Interesting to learn about "fed" and "finished".
The butcher yesterday said, that in the summer the cows will eat grass, but in winter they can't because of the snow, so they are fed grains and corn.
I read, that the Galloway cattle are outside the whole year and eat only grass. I'll try to buy some meat from them.
Yes, ruminants seem to mean "Wiederkäuer" in German, meaning the animals chew (kauen) the food/gras a number of times, i.e. again (wieder).

Yes, it might be my body. I'll experiment and observe. The lamb tatar I could digest nicely so far.
My digestion has become very good after cutting out the grains and thus gluten. Before I would often have a bowl of raw oat and buckwheat grains that I ground myself in a little hand mill. I soaked them overnight in water. At that time a cafe latte would cause stomach pain as would eggs. I had cafe latte with soy milk then (I know there is a controvery about soy products in that they contain some estrogen like substance, but then the on other hand the Asians seem to have been fine for centuries consuming soy products regularly).
Now after switching to non-grain I can drink cafe latte with normal milk again and have no problem with a three egg omelette (just beginning to try raw now).
So, in small amounts dairy for me is fine.
I'll have a look at information fat.

I remember twenty years ago I read in a book about the margarine business. It's basically in the hand of Unilever in Germany. They apparently spent millions every year in persuading people to believe that it is healthier for you and you will be thinner. Many people here believe it and buy only margarine, sometimes even the more expensive 'lite' version which is just diluted with water ;-)
It seems that Cargill is the big player in the oil industry. I'm sure they've also spent some money to influence opinion.

[Odin]

Just got back from the butcher where I bought a Galloway steak. I didn't ask for the price before hand. I bought 300g and then had to pay 15 Euro, something like 19,50 US$ 

He also had cow tongue. He showed me the massive piece. It looked like 2 to 3 kg. I asked for a little cut and he said you can only buy the whole thing. I'm going to try that another time. I'm not ready to eat that much yet, much less raw.
For how long could I keep that in the fridge?

I also bought some minced beef and asked how long I can keep that. He said 24 hours max.. Keeping it longer I would risk my life. I thought he was joking, but he was dead serious. Same with chicken breast, which I had bought before, no longer than a day was his advice.

[Odin]

Yesterday I had a mackerel raw. I had bought it on Saturday and was a bit worried that it might be bad after four days in the fridge. But it tasted so great. I had it with some lemon juice, soy sauce (yes, I know, most here probably avoid it :-)) and horse raddish (not wasabi, the white one). Very delicious. Apparently the mackerel are now quite fatty. Can only recommend it. Tomorrow I'll have the Galloway steak that I had bought on Saturday and that has been in my fridge wrapped in paper since then.

[Odin]

I've just finished the Galloway steak raw.
I'm just writing it as some other people new to this or still unsure might benefit from description of the  experience of someone who is in a similar position.
I had bought this on Saturday and it had been wrapped in paper in my fridge. I took it out of the fridge half an hour before eating so that it could get warm. It tasted great. I had it with some mustard and horse raddish.
What do you normally use to accompany your meat or do just enjoy the original taste?

There was quite a bit of fat on the meat. Some part was very difficult to chew, another was very soft and kind of melted in my mouth. I tasted good but took a bit to get used to it after many years of hearing to better avoid such fat.

[William]

I've just finished the Galloway steak raw. There was quite a bit of fat on the meat.

I'd read that truly grass-finished beef is as lean as wild meat, and so it was until my present supplier.

Farmers say that this is true of younger ( <= 30 months) cattle in Canada, where the grass-growing season is short.
Farmers are known to lie about whether and how much raw honey has been heated; I don't know if they can be trusted about expen$ive grass-finished beef.

[Arthas_]

I'm not sure what is considered to be lean. The meat I get here is 100% grassfed for sure. I shot some pictures of some back fat trimmings I got.

[goodsamaritan]

looks fat to me.

You could move the camera back a bit.

[Arthas_]

I'd read that truly grass-finished beef is as lean as wild meat, and so it was until my present supplier.

The pictures I posted are fat trimmings of truly grass-finished beef. What I'm not familiar with is what is considered to be lean. Perhaps grain-finnished beef have much ticker fat layers.

[Arthas_]

I was looking for pictures of rump cover/rump cap. Around here this cut always have a nice tick layer of fat. I was looking for some pictures on google Brazil and on google us to see the difference. Here is the result:

Brazilian/ South Americam / Grass finished:





Grain finished:
http://www.rvalley.com.au/rump_cap.htm





To whomever it may interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rump_cover