paleo dairy

[alphagruis]

Lactose intolerance is documented with the same SAD eaters. I don't see why you aknowledge one, and not the other. Even butter contains some lactose (and casein), albeit less than milk, and thus can "impair digestion in a large fraction of adult humans."

Not true. Lactose intolerance is documented worldwide on essentially all humans, most of them still on their traditional diets, to find out their degree of intolerance. It's a relatively simple well understood problem of the very variable quantity of lactase still produced after weaning.

Casein allergy is not a well understood problem, in contrast. As so many other allergies it's occurence increased tremendously  during the last decades and still continues to do so precisely in people on SAD. Probably linked to impaired gut permeability induced by this kind of diet.

So it is IMO simply not pertinent to put both problems on the same level. In particular similar allergies exist in SAD people with respect to nuts, shellfish, eggs etc. Why don't you conclude from this situation that these foods should be eliminated from our diets?
  

Slow digestion means that it is difficult to digest. Not an advantage for me!

Well, as with carbs for proteins too it may be an advantage to not too rapidly release the product of digestion glucose or amino acids into the bood stream.

Yes because babies are adapted to human milk. And many babies can't tolerate cow's milk, even raw. Bovine casein is definitively not the same as human casein!

Sure I do not dispute this, but my point is that human casein has a similar specific structure that also precisely makes it to digest slowly.  

I am pretty sure you'll react a way in an other, soon or later. Milk, and thus dairies contain other problematic components (hormones, etc.). Cordain has made a good job on this subject (in the Paleodiet newsletters).

It's likely. We'll see. I'm going to experiment a little bit on myself and certainly do not urge you or anybody else to do so.
Note that meat also contains hormones.

[alphagruis]

Carnivore,

What kind of symptoms did you observe with raw grassfed butter?

It is highly unlikely that the lactose traces in butter were responsible for them because lactose intolerance is hardly absolute in any of us. Some lactase is generally present and bacteria might well handle trace amounts without symptoms or adverse effects.

Casein is more likely to be involved because its structure actually ressembles the one of gluten.

 

[carnivore]

Carnivore,

What kind of symptoms did you observe with raw grassfed butter?

It is highly unlikely that the lactose traces in butter were responsible for them because lactose intolerance is hardly absolute in any of us. Some lactase is generally present and bacteria might well handle trace amounts without symptoms or adverse effects.

Casein is more likely to be involved because its structure actually ressembles the one of gluten.

Casein, lactose, hormones, or whatever there is in raw butter, it made me sick as when I ate cooked dairy (cheese, etc.). 2 times, I got a cold with a severe sore throat that lasted 2 weeks, something I never had on a raw food diet (without dairy) during more than 10 years. I have no doubt it was caused by butter. I also usually had to clear my throat after eating butter, which was really uncomfortable.

BTW, about the so called traces, if you clarify butter (to separate the fat from the rest), you'll see that there is a certain amount of impurities that is far from being negligible!

[carnivore]

Casein allergy is not a well understood problem, in contrast. As so many other allergies it's occurence increased tremendously  during the last decades and still continues to do so precisely in people on SAD. Probably linked to impaired gut permeability induced by this kind of diet.

Well, it seems that casein is also not very well tolerated among rawfooders (ex : many primaldieters give up dairy).
Dairy is a common food on the SAD diet, how can you be sure that casein in dairy does not also induce gut permeability (Seignalet diet excludes dairy for this reason) ?

So it is IMO simply not pertinent to put both problems on the same level. In particular similar allergies exist in SAD people with respect to nuts, shellfish, eggs etc. Why don't you conclude from this situation that these foods should be eliminated from our diets?

Because nuts, shellfish and eggs are paleofood, food that we are adapted to, contrary to cow's milk. A rawpaleo diet generally helps to improve these allergies.
BTW, butter does not contain any important nutrients that one can't find in other animal products, like in fatty fish, organs, shellfish, eggs, etc.

Well, as with carbs for proteins too it may be an advantage to not too rapidly release the product of digestion glucose or amino acids into the bood stream.

At the expense of lots of effort to digest and assimilate it. Instead of eating hard to assimilate nutrient, why not eat in small amount but more frequently easy to digest food/nutrients?

Note that meat also contains hormones.

I suspect they are not the same, or not in the same quantity than in milk. Do you have any references on natural hormones in meat ?

[KD]

Well, it seems that casein is also not very well tolerated among rawfooders (ex : many primaldieters give up dairy).
Dairy is a common food on the SAD diet, how can you be sure that casein in dairy does not also induce gut permeability (Seignalet diet excludes dairy for this reason) ?

Well, I'll probably get crucified for saying this, but I get a little tired of hearing about some mystical sect of Primal Dieters that have gone off dairy. Theres probably a chunk of folks that become disillusioned with AV or just choose to simplify things, but there are also very long term Primals that have improved their health and probably have levels of health many people here would be happy to have. I think its fine from a paleo perspective to surmise that some would be better without dairy, or similar such statements, but the only PrD folks I have spoken to are pretty thrilled about their raw-dairy even in the long-term. I don't think it has anything to do with taste or being squeemish about animal fats for long term people that also do high-meats, intestines, rotten chicken etc... Another point to be crucified for on the above is myself and many others who have tried or implemented dairy in the shorter term say 6mo-2 years, have mentioned cold flu/like mucus and other symptoms which eventually went away. I know I had some mucus and such and some odor, but when I think about my past, I was never hugely dairy heavy and would hack up mucus daily in the shower every morning and always get flus, yet .5 lb of pure dairy fat yielded maybe a spits worth here and there which went away, doesn't quite add up to me.

I've never experienced any direct negatives from raw-dairy (butter), in fact only positives like better bowel function and better digestion. It could be that because of other factors like mag/cal ratio or other things that it has other affects that are hard to pinpoint or that it indeed stalls or worsens progress, but these seem to be impossible to measure without major long term self-trials. All I can say is when I try do weeks of just meat and animal fat, my bowels suffer somewhat, and I also have a hard time taking in enough fat and greatly under eat. There is 100% certainty on my part that raw butter digests faster than raw suet which seems to sit in my stomach for hours at least, I would probably throw 'better' into that as well but of course am not as sure on that one. Perhaps for people eating fruits this isn't as big a deal, but have found meat+marrow does not cut it so I'm going back to butter myself.

another thing in linking to foods that mimic our original nutrition as opposed to foods we would eat, I have found butter to be very hydrating and soothing, and frozen kidney fat to be incredibly dehydrating, needing far much more water than I usually consume in an almost unrealistic quantity. With the fat attached on fresh fatty muscle meat being an ideal, and butter being alot closer to me than dried kidney fat.

[Hans89]

@alphagruis

Is it easy to get raw grassfed milk / butter / cream in France?

[TylerDurden]

Given that food-intolerance towards raw dairy is the major no-1 reported health-problem on the Primal Diet it is absurd to suggest that most Primal Dieters do fine with raw dairy. Many, many have had to quit the Primal Diet as a result of issues with raw dairy, and many of our members on this forum are in fact  ex-primal-Dieters, so the "sect" is indeed very real, not mythical at all. What's really bad is the significantly large proportion of Primal Dieters who frequently report going in for massive so-called "detoxes" whenever they consume raw dairy in sizeable amounts. Given that genuine detoxes are only minor in nature generally, it's clear that such people are generally self-deluded and believe that their food-intolerance towards raw dairy is a kind of detox. No truly healthy diet should be giving people constant detoxes even after 5+ years on the diet.


Another issue is that some people can negate the overt negative symptoms by simply swamping their bodies with a particular allergenic food like raw dairy and thus overwhelming the body's attempts to detox the poisons out, but that doesn't actually reduce the harmful effects of such a food.

And even the long-term Primal Dieters who claim to do fine on raw dairy have routinely mentioned that they take extra magnesium supplements or raw pumpkin seeds(very high magnesium: calcium ratio) as a precaution in order to counter the very negative effect of raw dairy re its abnormal calcium: magnesium ratio which leads to blocking the uptake of magnesium into the body and thus leads to magnesium-deficiency.

[KD]

Given that food-intolerance towards raw dairy is the major no-1 reported health-problem on the Primal Diet it is absurd to suggest that most Primal Dieters do fine with raw dairy. Many, many have had to quit the Primal Diet as a result of issues with raw dairy, and many of our members on this forum are in fact  ex-primal-Dieters, so the "sect" is indeed very real, not mythical at all. What's really bad is the significantly large proportion of Primal Dieters who frequently report going in for massive so-called "detoxes" whenever they consume raw dairy in sizeable amounts. Given that genuine detoxes are only minor in nature generally, it's clear that such people are generally self-deluded and believe that their food-intolerance towards raw dairy is a kind of detox. No truly healthy diet should be giving people constant detoxes even after 5+ years on the diet.

I didn't suggest 'most'. To me it actually matters little what % of people do or don't do well on raw dairy as that cannot be official determined and as long as people have created health doing so. Of course one could point to many kinds of health programs that merely have the appearance of such, but I think the successful PrD's really stand apart in this sense.

I still don't agree about the sect or long term primal expats. You yourself have made that conclusion that people shouldn't have detoxes. I'm pretty sympathetic to that and somewhat cynical/skeptical about Primals in this respect that but at the end of the day have no way to concur that is true either, and if symptoms are indeed less severe and less frequent, or completely eccentric like taste of drugs from childhood or purple grease coming out your ears or something, I think one can contrast and compare to food allergies. I totally disagreed before that you can take a factory farmed animal, and on 2 years of grass make it identical to a generational pastured animal, and think contemporary humans are much worse off. You yourself mentioned you didn't even do the diet very long term before you became distrusting of detox. What I said was about long term dieters that then give up dairy, and even that isn't very relevant, because at that point maybe a more paleo approach is what is needed, most people see PrD as a healing diet, not necessarily needed or even preferable for long term maintenance.

Also, who cares if people take pumpkin seeds or magnesium. There seems to be a huge double standard on thigns like this here, are you saying all people on this site that take any kind of even paleo non-meat/veg substance or supplement like Lex have no nutitional merit? If those supps are all that is needed to counteract negative effects it sounds pretty minor to the negative effects of being ill or dead. It might prove that it isn't a perfect food with perfect ratios for humans or whatever but is says nothing of its value.

[TylerDurden]

Actually, my stance re detoxes has always been that genuine detoxes do exist but that with a truly healthy diet, they gradually get reduced in terms of frequency. duration and severity until they don't appear any more. The only exception to this are the mild detoxes long-term RPDers get shortly after eating any  cooked and/or non-palaeo foods, but that is a separate issue. What I find disturbing are the frequent, severe(IMO, fake)detoxes that primal dieters commonly mention even after being many years on the diet.

As for my primal-diet experience,I only did it for 6 months but had no choice but to quit and go rawpalaeo as the primal diet(the raw dairy component anyway) was very quickly ruining my health to an unpleasant extent. If I'd continued with it a few more years, I'd be long dead by now.

As for the issues of supplements, the point is that they are eating a raw food which causes a nasty side-effect re magnesium-deficiency so need an artificial extra to sort that out. Foods causing nutritional deficiencies can hardly be called healthy as such. As for Lex, I am not familiar with his supplements - I think(?) he took some for those kidney-stones he had? I think though he went in for extra water-intake to actually solve that problem.

My own krill-oil supplements are simply used because I sometimes each year am forced to eat raw, grainfed meats or have to attend a social occasion and eat cooked foods. The omega-3s in the krill-oil help counter the lack of omega-3s in the cooked foods and grainfed meats.However, none of the foods I eat cause nutritional deficiencies in the way raw dairy does.

I take krill-oil tablets. This doesn't invalidate my raw diet as such. It's simply because I occasionally have no choice but to eat raw grainfed meats(when on holiday) or have to eat cooked foods due to a social occasion. The krill-oil is cold-extracted and provides me with the omega-3s that I might otherwise be missing out on as a result of not always being able to get quality RPD-friendly foods.

[Paleo Donk]

One reason that milk can be valuable is the fact that it is a complete food for all infant mammals. No matter what the mammal's natural diet is, the milk will contain all the nutrients needed to achieve excellent health. The problem with the human diet today is that mature humans cannot easily procure a natural diet that would provide all the nutrition that one needs. This is one area where milk can have an advantage over other foods. I am not eating the entire animal, brains, blood, marrow and organs and never in the same proportion as would be done in the wild.  Similarly eggs are complete foods that I would guess contain a more complete nutritional profile all packaged together in one product that we really cannot find anywhere else. Egg yolks containing high amounts of DHA and iodine is one simple example that shows this.

Now, whether there are other nasties in the foods that illicit bodily malfunction is another story but the fact remains that milk and eggs can be a more of a complete source of nutrition than other foods.

[TylerDurden]

Yet raw milk and raw eggs figure very highly as allergenic foods among rawists.  The problem with raw dairy is that it it is raw cows' dairy and so is created solely in order to make a young adult calf not only healthy but grow up to adult size within a couple of years.  Raw cows' milk is therefore totally unsuitable for any other kind of mammal, especially humans. Now raw human mothers' milk is indeed ideal for human infants as it contains special enazymes designed to make it 100% digestible by human babies along with special nutrients for the building of the human brain, but that's a quite different food from raw cows' milk.

[alphagruis]

@alphagruis

Is it easy to get raw grassfed milk / butter / cream in France?

Hans,

Strictly 100% grass fed is not easy. There is always a tendency to feed dairy cows at least some cereals because it makes them to produce more milk. Yet the fraction of non-grass food they are given is apparently small in many "AOC" (Appelation d'Origine Controlée) cheese producing regions such as Auvergne or Jura and probably smaller than in other European countries.

The source I'm going to experiment with is from a very small farm. They produce just a little bit of dairy for their own use basically and accept to let me experiment with samples of it. The animals are 100% grass fed and from a very rustic stock not bred to "produce milk" as Holsteins are. The latter point might be important re milk quality and tolerance.  




  

[alphagruis]

Well, it seems that casein is also not very well tolerated among rawfooders (ex : many primaldieters give up dairy).
Dairy is a common food on the SAD diet, how can you be sure that casein in dairy does not also induce gut permeability (Seignalet diet excludes dairy for this reason) ?

Carnivore, if I were sure (as you seem to "believe" or "claim") of anything re casein or milk why do you think I'm going to experiment with it and try to find out more about it?  

If you've already made your opinion as some well known food gurus, just definitely ignore dairy.

Because nuts, shellfish and eggs are paleofood, food that we are adapted to, contrary to cow's milk. A rawpaleo diet generally helps to improve these allergies.
BTW, butter does not contain any important nutrients that one can't find in other animal products, like in fatty fish, organs, shellfish, eggs, etc.

If you are convinced that the paleo argument is just definitely necessary and sufficient to accept or reject a specific food, you're free to do so. I'm not and while I certainly agree that RAWPALEO is a very good general framework and guide I'm also convinced  that evolution is anyway underway (for instance presently available plants or animals have evolved since paleotimes ) whether we like it or not and all possible innovations in our diets are not ipso facto necessarily "bad". We have to find out and again can't stop evolution.

Re butter, nobody disputes and a look at the various traditional diets worldwide shows the fact that like other dairy products they are by no means indispensable. You're just beating a dead horse.  

I suspect they are not the same, or not in the same quantity than in milk. Do you have any references on natural hormones in meat ?

Hormones are natural constituents of all animals or plants.

[carnivore]

Keep us updated on your butter experience Alpha ! 

[PaleoPhil]

Err, ZCers can easily be rather more aggressive when defending only raw-meat diets/attacking carbs(that other  ZC forum, The Bear, William etc.) Indeed, there've been threads reporting increased aggression among ZCers!

That was an unintentional oversight--I should also include pemmican and other fatty meats among the strongly defended foods, and some ZCers also passionately defend dairy fat too, including the Bear and some at ZIOH (even CW has changed his tune and added dairy to his diet--even adding milk to his new definition of "ZC", which now means "animal foods", apparently).

Now that I think about it, I think I can answer my own question: fruit, dairy and pemmican are all controversial foods in the forums I read, so that would explain why I see more passion re: those foods. One common denominator of fruits, dairy and fatty meats appears to be tastiness.

Interestingly, I learned today from a Robb Wolf interview by Jimmy Moore that retired football player and famous Paleo dieter John Wellborn has changed his mind in the opposite direction of CW about dairy. John was Paleo + grassfed dairy and argued passionately in favor of dairy with Loren Cordain (probably the most eminent of the dairy opponents in the Paleo world), but Robb reports that John cut out dairy (he didn't say why) and a month later John's bloodwork improved so much that his doctor remarked about it being some of the best #'s among his patients. (Robb Wolf Offers ‘The Paleolithic Solution’ To Obesity And Disease, May 26, 2010, http://www.carbwire.com/2010/05/26/robb-wolf-offers-the-paleolithic-solution-to-obesity-and-disease).

As for raw dairy, I've come across some people who've been trying to get healthy on SAD diets for years and then become remarkably fanatical when raw-dairy-consumption sorted out their issues such as fertility. ...

Yes, that is another element. I have also noticed that if adding or eliminating a food helps someone overcome health issues then they tend to be most passionate (positively or negatively) about that food. That's understandable. I also think some of the passion re: raw dairy comes from the fact that retail sale of it is illegal in many areas and forces have worked to make it illegal in more areas, but even pasteurized dairy generates some passion at the Paleofood and ZIOH forums.

[King Salmon]

I used to eat a ton of raw dairy and raw unheated honey.It's not worth it.I used to live near A.V. in California and I talked to him at a health food store about some stuff one time while shopping.
Cheese will clog my ears and honey will cause break outs(pimples).Butter was never really a problem but why eat that when you can eat eggs(or,a ton of other much better stuff)?

Human mother's milk would probably be a different story.But as an adult? I don't think so.
Would you go out and suck on a cow's teets?Did Paleo man do that? I don't think so.

[miles]

What do you eat King Salmon? Are you ZC?

[King Salmon]

Hi Miles,as you can tell by my name,I like salmon.But,no I'm not 0carb.I eat mostly seafood(primarily salmon,scallops,tuna),eggs,some nuts(primarily macadamias,pistachios,pine nuts),fruits(primarily pineapple,bananas,avocados)
I'm presently looking for a good land animal source.
My next project is to cut out dried fruits.Then, try 0carb for a while to see what it's like.

[Ironbeef]

I've been drinking raw dairy for ten years and wouldn't give it up if you offered me the cow to eat, raw of course.  If paleolithic man had access to the utters of healthy heifer, he wouldn't hesitate to suck the white wonder from the 4 inch nipples of this miracle animal.  Give me my raw milk dagnabbit, or give me death!

The first diet-coke drinking drip to disagree with me is automatically disqualified.

Oh, and raw honey does NOT cause pimples, epidermal bacteria would be the likely culprit, but I digress..... 

[miles]

Iron Beef:

If you tried to suck off a cow, you would be trampled by its' herd...

Pimples are caused, when the liver is unable to properly balance hormones. The liver needs to filter out excess/used hormones, but if the liver is not functioning to a high enough level in order to cope with the load put on it, then it will not be able to keep up.

This is important because: Hormones are powerful biological instigators, a slightly wrong balance of hormones can have a big effect; used hormones remain powerful bio-active instigators, yet no longer for the intended function. This can cause havoc.

Eating honey causes a surge-release of hormones, insulin for one...

In someone with a poor-functioning liver, this can lead to over-production of sebum, as well as increasing inflammatory response.

[King Salmon]

Epidermal bacteria my ass! hahaha ! gettoutahere man ! Let's make this simple: when I eat honey,I breakout. When I don't eat honey,I don't. End of story.
No food necessarily causes anything.It's the body's reaction to it.Whatever that may be.
My body doesn't react well to honey.So,that's the end of it.Ok?

In terms of dairy,a large part of the population is lactose intolerent.Drinking it raw,cultured or otherwise doesn't help any of those people.

Iron Beef: You can eat all the dairy and honey you want.Knock yourself out!

Miles: I've added chicken hearts.Good stuff.Soft,easy to chew,and taste good.Also, I'm replacing my sweet fruit intake to celery and cucumbers.

[miles]

KS: Did you find any difference in reaction between when you ate processed, and when you ate raw honey? I see you had a bad reaction for the raw, but I was just wondering if it was any better than your reaction to processed..

Thanks.

[King Salmon]

Miles: Sorry,I can't remember the last time I had processed honey