Water-Fasting

[miles]

Has anyone switched to RAF, but felt that they needed to give their body a 'rest from food' in order to remove 'toxins' which they felt may have been present, having built up prior to them eating RAF, and which were not getting a chance to be eliminated?

Any information anyone can give me on this I would appreciate. Including anecdotal; positive; negative; 2nd hand; etc....

Through what pathways are these toxins removed? Both urinary and faeces, or only solid? Any others? How does the body remove them via faeces/solid, if one is not consuming anything solid? What are(maybe visible) signs that these toxins are being removed?

[TylerDurden]

I've gone in for fasting for 3-4 days at a time. Makes me rev up my body's cells, IMO.

[miles]

At first, you have just eaten so you do not feel hungry, then you become hungry, then when you switch to using ketosis you become not hungry(or less hungry) again. After this, when your fat starts to become low, do you start to feel hungry again, in time to react up on the feeling prior to muscle-wastage setting in?

[Paleo Donk]

I am going to try these mini-fasts (a few days) soon enough and I do there is a possibility that they are very beneficial. Check the curezone water fasting forum for more info and lots of first hand accounts.

[Paleo Donk]

Here are some starvation/low calorie studies that show muscle, fat and glycogen usage

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/27/1/3
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/68/1/12 
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/8/803
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/50/4/746
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/8/1612
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/2/6/405
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/35/3/471
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/5/1239

[miles]

Hey... Um... The point of a water-fast is to cleanse the body of toxins, and also allow it to heal itself. However, wherever I read it said that most of these toxins were stored in fat tissue. So, how would these be expelled from the body if one isn't eating any fat? I also recall, after reading that during the fast you may feel ill due to toxins being released in to the blood(I don't see where these toxins would go if they're fat-soluble), that after eating significant quantities of lambs fat(only grass-fed fat I've eaten in any substantial amount), that I would often feel ill. I'm considering attempting to acquire some grass-fed lamb/beef marrow, and eat just that for a few days and see what happens, before returning to meat. I plan on now eating only grass-fed products(mainly lamb), and drinking predominantly bottled spring water from now anyway.

But... what do you think about a water-fast? e.g. How it's supposed to cleanse you of toxins, when most are apparently stored in fat?

Also on the issue of healing. I thought that the bubbles which I often have in my urine, may be to do with something needing to be repaired. I read something to do with a water-fast allowing the mucosal lining of 'the guts'(I don't remember which) to be replenished. Without which, it said that undigested protein may enter the blood. The alternative explanation I heard to do with bubbles in the urine was also from a form of damage, related to 'chron's disease' where the bubbles were air, not protein. Anyway, what do you think of this?

I'm nearing the end of my 5th full day(in hours:125) of not eating, and I don't feel I've really noticed anything positive... One guy's posts said he was clear of skin blemishes on the 9th day. Other people said that their hunger returned after around 18/21 days which they would say, suggested that they had used up the toxins and the hunger was to prevent them from consuming necessary, or non-toxic tissues. What do you think of this?

I'm going to look at ordering some grass-fed fat now anyway, but depending on responses, I may continue the water-fast further. Honestly however, I'm starting to think it doesn't add up...

Responses please.

[Hans89]

I don't think anybody can give you a definite explanation of what's going on. The benefit from water fasting, I believe, lies in giving your digestive system a rest rather than in detox. I'm not sure if it works for everybody, though. I for one can't fast without feeling terrible, and it will make me crave bad foods, too, so whenever I went off the fast, I destroyed any possible benefits by overeating crap. If you feel alright on the fast, then just go on and don't eat anything, because that will skew the results of your water-fasting experiment. You'll never know if water fasting is good for you because you didn't really water-fast if you experiment with eating fats during the fast. I'd leave those experiments for a later time.

[miles]

On some sites about fasting, they recommended taking some castor oil. Also it depends what you mean by 'alright'. I feel slightly sick most of the time, have almost no energy and my bowl movements come out like diarrhoea(I feel puke-sick, then I have to drink a significant amount of water, and then I feel less sick and it comes out the other end). I'm on my 6th non-food day now, and some people would only water-fast for a few days anyway... I could easily go on, if I thought it was going to be good, as that's why I got to this point I am at now. It's not that I think I'm going to have any serious problems, it's just I'm starting to feel I'm wasting my time, and it's not an enjoyable time. I really don't know..

Any information I can find on water-fasts is not by rawpaleos. If it was, maybe it would recommend taking some fat. It's dominated by low-fat types, and even some of them recommend castor oil. I don't see how my digestive system's really getting a break if I'm getting diarrhoea and feeling sick. I was doing it predominantly for the detox side.

They say that fasting allows the body to expend energy on repair because it's not digesting, but muscle-repair takes a hell of a lot longer whilst fasting... Also, fat will give so much energy for the amount it takes to digest, won't it?

Edit: When people like Hippocrates, Socrates, Plato, Pythagoras(,also Jesus and Moses) fasted, was this a complete fast, or would they still have consumed water?

[ForTheHunt]

Don't fast more than 5-6 days.

Also I feel that fasting with just water isn't nearly as effective as a coconut oil fast or colon cleanse fast and liver cleanse fast.

[Hans89]

What castor oil does is it irritates the bowels (which I think is very bad and counter-productive especially when fasting) and therefore works as a laxative. So I don't think it will do you any good, as you already have the runs.

By AV, puking and diarrhoea are detoxes. However, I'm not so sure about that... My reaction was totally different, I got constipated and hat to take epsom salts / and or enemas. My fasting experience is also pre-paleo, though.

About Moses and Jesus, there's no way of telling how they fasted. If there are records for the Greeks, I'm not sure. People claim to have gone on waterfasts for long times. Not sure how long people have dry fasted.

My advice would be to treat this as an experiment. Keep it pure water fasting and go on as long as you think you can or should, then see what it did for you. I guess you wanted to find out about the benefits water fasting could have for you, so if you go off the track now, you will invalidate your experiment.

[miles]

Don't fast more than 5-6 days.

Also I feel that fasting with just water isn't nearly as effective as a coconut oil fast or colon cleanse fast and liver cleanse fast.

Well I'm on my 6th no-food day at present. Most sources seemed to say that the benefits increase later on in the fast. Why do you think I should fast no longer than 6 days?

Also, I don't know how I, being ZC, would differ from the sources I've read, which will all refer to high-carbers.
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To Hans: I wasn't considering using castor oil. I was considering using raw marrow from grass-fed ruminants.
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I considered that eating fat may help with elimination. However, if I were to be consuming fat, perhaps my body would stop using it's toxin-containing stored-fats, and other compromised tissues?

Also, if my lips are dry/cracked do you think I should drink more water, even if I don't feel thirsty?

[KD]

Sure, most proponents of long term water fasting you'll find in Hygienists and their literature. Not all of them are vegetarian per se, but I think the animal fat thing you bring up does raise a good point. They do provide their explanations of how the body breaks down toxins in stored tissues and eliminated as ketones, which is the 'cause' of many uncomfortable symptoms. So it might at least be worth reading if you are embarking on longer fasts. To my understanding the actual fasting process/breakdown does not begin till 3-4 days into the fast, prior to that its just burning residual fuel, so while IF and such has advantages, it doesn't exactly cleanse the body in the same way (according to those experts). It is not merely the abstinence from food. Generally hygienists are against things like castor oil (not being used as fat source but a healing aid) and enemas, seen as therapies.

The flaw you point out is that even catabolizeing the tissue, does not mean complete removal of wastes through urine. Many people on long term fasts experience complete absence of bowel functioning even after completing the fast. Supposedly matter dries up and then be removed when people resume eating, but this does not seem to be accurate. The other major issue, which has been proposed by aajonous and others who are anti-fasts is that many of the chemicals and things stored in tissue can easily just move to other parts of the body rather than actually being flushed out, which in a way makes the argument for eating lots of raw fat, more substatial and successful long term than doing water based fasts. Animals/humans in nature's origin would not have these issues, so healing any ailments or illness (although I've never wrapped my head around why humans would be ill according to hygensists if they had no dietary mis-steps) would indeed be accelerated in this process. Either way, embarking on water only, its better to probably follow in the steps others have outlined: staying completely in bed, only drinking distilled pure water (which acts as a solvent, rather than mineral rich waters which are more beneficial for everyday), and focusing on positive energy work etc... merely not eating, while resuming everyday activities and not resting, would not by definition be considered fasting.

[miles]

Hmm.. I've been consuming 'Spring Water', as my only alternative I know of is Tap water, which even when filtered retains the fluoride which is added to it in the area where I live. I suppose I could filter my spring water. I don't think it's possible though, for me to buy drinking grade distilled water where I live.

They will talk about the return of hunger after ~2-3weeks at which point one should return to food(initially disappearing after 2-3 days), but I don't know if this would be different for someone who is ZC anyway. I am on day 6 and have hunger.

[King Salmon]

Miles,I've done a 35-day water fast before(actually two).So,if you have any questions let me know.But,yeah KD is right.It's a situation where you need to rest so your body can "do its thing".

Once a week you can use prune juice to empty out, if you know what I mean.

It's not worth doing a fast less than 21 days(30-40 is best).It takes time for the body to change its function from using energy for daily living and digesting to accumulating toxins and expelling them.

The body can live on water only for up to 90 days(depending on the person of course).So,don't panic.Don't let people who haven't done it influence you in a negative way.Stick with it if you're serious about it.Good luck.

[kurite]

Miles,I've done a 35-day water fast before(actually two).So,if you have any questions let me know.But,yeah KD is right.It's a situation where you need to rest so your body can "do its thing".

Once a week you can use prune juice to empty out, if you know what I mean.

It's not worth doing a fast less than 21 days(30-40 is best).It takes time for the body to change its function from using energy for daily living and digesting to accumulating toxins and expelling them.

The body can live on water only for up to 90 days(depending on the person of course).So,don't panic.Don't let people who haven't done it influence you in a negative way.Stick with it if you're serious about it.Good luck.

Can you exercise on a water fast? Don't you lose a lot of muscle???

[King Salmon]

Kurite: In my experience no.You lose muscle and fat for sure.But the benefits,if you do it right,outweigh the negatives.
My detox was 100% real and significant.It wasn't easy,it's not like being on vacation at a beach resort or something.
The reality is that the only excercise you can do is walking around the park and get some fresh air.The idea is to be at a "rest state" to allow the body to do what it needs to do.That is to isolate and gather toxins.Then,expel toxins.That is a BIG job.You don't want to add aditional work and stress the body any more than that.

Just as an added bit of info:Juice fasting is an oxymoron(doesn't work as a true fast).It's more of juice "feast".I did one of those for 50 days,so I know.

[KD]

I don't know what happened to the other thread, but I already wrote some things in response to
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/distilled-or-spring-water-on-a-14-21-day-fast/msg40844/?topicseen#msg40844

which might be helpful generally.

Keep in my these are based on theories around fasting than anything else.

I think the few in other thread - despite possibly not using the best word choices - were convey the fact that even properly executed long fasts are nothing to scoff at, and executed frivolously can lead to bodily harm or death.

The most important thing to keep in mind with long fasts is the reason people go to fasting retreats is manifold, but the MAIN reason is even with the discipline to fast completely for a set time period, having the discipline to break a fast properly is 10X more challenging and can mean total failure of efforts otherwise.

Since there isn't a tremendous amount of literature on breaking fasts with animal foods, or what amounts, over what period of days (usually its 1 day per ever 4 day of fasting before one is eating 'normally'), it makes even starting a fast with the idea of breaking it prematurely as a 'safety', another thing not to dismiss lightly. The few often cited stories about breaking fasts with cooked meat -> permanent digestive breakdown are simply one example.

as for the distilled vs spring water. Fasting lore once again comes out of a mostly veg/hygiene mindset, so for them distilled water (free of most particulates) will act better as a solvent in terms of stripping existing material from the body. At the same time, if one had access to actual mountain spring water, it should be more than adequate for cleansing. Most bottled spring waters (other than heavy duty mineral water, which might not be the greatest for fasting) have been heat treated and leech chemicals, which is another common reason for distilling water.

the whole point of fasting is complete and total rest, so any energy geared towards activity that doesn't include laying still, wll counter some benefits of the fast. But that is explained more above.

[miles]

Spring water is heat-treated? Is that just in the US? Is this a bad thing? What do you mean when you say that heat-treated spring water will 'leech chemicals'?

[KD]

I can't speak for other countries, but generally all bottled water in plastic is put through heat treatment plants.

http://www.naturalnews.com/026703_water_health_Daniel_Vitalis.html

It depends on how significant to you that water is living with bacteria and such and has its pre-existing structure like the food we consume. Generally plastic will leech toxins into the water and the water itself is polluted. This doesn't exactly prevent me from buying bottled water (in an ideal world it would) but it becomes more important when fasting. As I tried to imply, mineral water (found in dark glass) is usually the healthiest for everyday use: strait from the source and most brands I believe are not treated with heat (could be wrong). but they are poor for fasting according to traditional lore because of the high mineral content. Basically the whole idea of distilling water (other than to remove toxic compounds in polluted water) is to remove as many particulates as possible so that the water acts as a solvent - strips matter. Many hygienists believe this is healthy generally speaking as well, but along with the diet they promote, tends to be in fact the one that leeches materials from the body. If that makes sense

[Savage]

Miles, are you fasting right now? Not a week yet, but getting there, I'll use mostly distilled water per KDs advice and some spring 4:1 ratio when buying gallons, 14-21 days is the plan, will be lifting heavy weights and other things during 


KD, my friend gave me 10lbs of ribeye/sirloin  I'll eat that on day 1 of feeding, probably 10lbs of pork on day 2 & 3 and then fast again.

Fasting for a day or 2, I don't feel a single difference, but at the beginning of day 3, I feel good, I like this feast/famine cycle much better than eating everyday.

[miles]

No I'm not fasting, I stopped after 1 week. I still eat one meal/day, occasionally skip a day and then eat a bigger meal though, etc..

[KD]

KD, my friend gave me 10lbs of ribeye/sirloin  I'll eat that on day 1 of feeding, probably 10lbs of pork on day 2 & 3 and then fast again.

Just trying to throw some information out there. Even with the digestibility of raw meat, there is a difference between a 3 week shutdown system and a few days. not to mention the cellular waste/removal and enervation. Part of the reason why stews or fruits are used is to jump start the colon, so any hardened matter can be released. Granted many of these come from more of a veg mindset without much information out there on meat diets (except people that did all their fasting before meat).

Anyway, if you are set on on this, I'll be following with interest.

[ys]

Not a week yet, but getting there

how's your fast going?  i think everyone here is interested to hear your results.

[Savage]

I finished 1 week, I still had my strength, but I had no energy to use it, I didn't want to do anything.

My appetite was getting higher and higher, I ate a huge amount of meat in the 2 days after, my stomach didn't feel good.

For some reason I decided to do this: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/does-dehydrating-meat-oxidize-fat/10/

Page 2, last 3 replies.

Right now, I'm doing 2lbs of ribeye and 1lb of chicken livers in the dehydrator, my friend wants to try some, so I'll probably end up eating 2-2.5lbs and my hunger will be fine, not to mention, I feel really good since I've started doing this.

Only ZC (cooked, dehydrated or raw) and Heavy intense exercise will always be with me, anything else so far is only experimental and expendable at any time it doesn't do me good.

[ys]

Thanks for the update.  What do you think of this fast?  Will you do it again?