How big?

[wodgina]

I think we should change this forum to strength training, bodybuilding seems so 80's

[TylerDurden]

The points I was making were simple:- 1) most weightlifters ignore certain parts of the body in order to "look good" by focusing too much on the thighs or the biceps and the like. The wrist-aspect was one of the various things I was thinking of, which is routinely neglected. But also, lifting metal dumbbells requires  a specific set of muscles working together in a limited sense, whereas more natural activities would require more muscles used in a different way/combination. There's 1 example from bodyweight trainers, giving an example of  a child and an adult competing with each other using  the bear-crawl(all fours but no knees on the floor), pointing out that a child has more functional strength in this regard than the adult because the child is using more muscles in tandem with each other.

The point, ultimately, is that functional strength is more useful for more natural activities such as fighting etc. Plus, a truly major benefit is that bodyweight-training, unlike weight-lifting, leads to far fewer injuries as it's more natural a practice. That was one of the reasons why I quit weight-lifting.

That said, I doubt that anyone nowadays has the time to emulate the very high levels of daily activity/exercise that palaeo peoples routinely underwent on a daily basis, so for Olympic types artificial methods might be necessary, as they require less time to carry out, by contrast.

[TylerDurden]

I broadly agree with your side of the argument, but let's have less of the inflammatory language. If you start getting into that, it gives a bad taste to the whole thing and just creates bad feeling all round.

Ah, don't worry about it. The reason for that language is basically because, in the past,  I dared to criticise 1 of  Taubes'  claims, and Taubes happens to be his god. I had pointed out, via a quotation, that 1 of PD's claims was a terminological inexactitude, as regards Taubes.

[Paleo Donk]

[miles]

.

[TylerDurden]

That's just stupid and deliberately highly selective. That particular photo was, of course,  made ages ago,  some c.7-8(?) years ago in my place in Italy during a period when I was (R)VLC for a very long period and doing frequent whole-day fasts, along with some caloric restriction of sorts - and not doing  too much exercise-wise at the time.After that point, I did indeed later on develop thick thighs as a result of squats with weights and other weightlifting routines etc. at the local  YMCA in London, not exactly  difficult to do. Of course, these days, as I've already mentioned before, I've had the sense to quit the weight-training, though not enough sense to do as much general exercise as I should - so, I don't have those unsightly large thighs any more.

That reminds me, I should have updated that photo ages ago. It just seemed appropriate as it showed me better off than I was pre-RPD diet, despite my extreme skinniness at the time, and was shortly after most of my health-issues had been resolved. I suppose what's needed is 3 or 4 photos., before/during/after etc.

Oh, and for the record, re another poster's silly purposely exaggerated remark, while my sleep has improved to the point where I don't need to sleep as long as I used to in SAD-diet days, I miraculously do actually still need to sleep some hours a day not merely 1 hour, and have not suggested otherwise.

[KD]

The points I was making were simple:- 1) most weightlifters ignore certain parts of the body in order to "look good" by focusing too much on the thighs or the biceps and the like. The wrist-aspect was one of the various things I was thinking of, which is routinely neglected. But also, lifting metal dumbbells requires  a specific set of muscles working together in a limited sense, whereas more natural activities would require more muscles used in a different way/combination. There's 1 example from bodyweight trainers, giving an example of  a child and an adult competing with each other using  the bear-crawl(all fours but no knees on the floor), pointing out that a child has more functional strength in this regard than the adult because the child is using more muscles in tandem with each other.

The point, ultimately, is that functional strength is more useful for more natural activities such as fighting etc. Plus, a truly major benefit is that bodyweight-training, unlike weight-lifting, leads to far fewer injuries as it's more natural a practice. That was one of the reasons why I quit weight-lifting.

These are valid points that have already been addressed and acknowledged but I think the issue people are hung up on is actually way simpler, that body-weight and regular resistance through activities will NOT result in the same or even remotely comparable increases in strength, size, and physique. the stereotyping around 'bodybuilding' is inaccurate because the strongest people on the planet, probably have to do training outside traditional lifts, as they are required in the competitions to do these complex feats. They would not get there being the sole owner of a machine-less farm or doing any other kind of physical activity that wasn't controlled and deliberate for strength training. These people who strain their bodies deliberately have 'functional strength' and people that use strength in their daily functioning have less strength. The comment about refrigerators was not talking about delivery boys, who have 0 chance of lifting a fridge single-handled up flights of stairs, but people who insanely do it alone for fun and exercise. These people would have to build up these muscles somehow with weights or some kind of gradual increase in objects, which is basically the same exact thing, only in the form of weight+motion which has already been mentioned as a strength training technique. This isn't a comparison of gym flunkies but traditional and innovative weight bearing exercise to body-weight or daily rigorous activity.

Err, the notion that people who lug heavy objects around like fridges must by definition be weightlifters is incredibly dodgy. Strange though it may seem, people can develop great strength without needing to do artificial weightlifting of metal dumbbells. You have to bear in mind that for millenia beforehand, people were exposed to regular stresses such as pulling ploughs through hardened soil most days etc.

I'm glad to avoid any argument about paleo times, but clearly here with ploughs you are refrenacing some aspect of civilization >7,000 years ago. There is absolutely no way I believe anyone doing their Ploughing and strenous daily life they could ever work up to pulling a 904 lb yoke or a topless car 25 meters. Bfore any mention of steroids, lets just say that these folks would not take their steroids and go out and do pullups and pushups all day while working in their graden.

the other super irony is that Bruce Lee, more than anyone else in modern consciousness instilled the idea of size's irrelevance in fighting, and not only did he lift weights, he used modern equipment to do so before moving on to more compound traditional exercises later in his development.

Bruce Lee’s Weight Training Routine
Bruce Lee Clean and Press – 2 sets of 8 reps

The clean and press is a classic weight lifters exercise. Unlike bodybuilding exercises, which work muscles in isolation, Bruce Lee’s weight lifting/power lifting exercises work muscles together, i.e. they are compound movements. Bruce Lee performed clean and presses in a very intensive fashion, that is, without rest between reps. This made the exercise a cardio and endurance exercise as well as a weight training exercise. In the clean and press a barbell is lifted from the floor, and in one explosive movement the weight is lifted up to rest on the front of the shoulders – this is the clean. Afterwards, the weight is then pressed upwards, and held overhead. It is then lowered to the floor in one movement, and repeated. A good form is essential in the clean and press, it is also important not to attempt to lift too much weight, as injuries to the lower back are common in poorly executed clean and presses.
Bruce Lee Barbell Squat – 2 sets of 12 reps

The squat is one of the most important compound exercises in the Bruce Lee Workout, especially for martial artists. It develops a solid base and core. In the standard squat, which should always be performed in a squat rack for safety, a barbell is placed across the shoulders and a squat is then performed. Bruce Lee advised there should be no pause in the lowest position, instead as soon as your thighs reach a horizontal position, you should rise again to a standing position. The squat works the hips, glutes, hamstrings, calves and quads.
Bruce Lee Barbell Pullovers – 2 sets of 8 reps

The barbell pullover is a weight training exercise that is less common these days. It is the classic rib-box expander. To perform a pullover you should lie on a flat bench, hold a barbell with a shoulder width grip overhead, and then lower it backwards behind your head, keeping the elbows slightly bent. The bar should be held as far back as it is comfortable. Some people can touch the floor behind them with the bar, but this is not recommended without adequate training. Use a light weight to start with, as this is a deceptively difficult movement.

Source: Bruce Lee Workout | Fitness and Strength Workouts http://www.motleyhealth.com/fitness_and_strength/martial-arts/bruce-lee-workout#ixzz0qYePYH31

http://www.motleyhealth.com/fitness_and_strength/martial-arts/bruce-lee-workout

[KD]

Oh, and for the record, re another poster's silly purposely exaggerated remark, while my sleep has improved to the point where I don't need to sleep as long as I used to in SAD-diet days, I miraculously do actually still need to sleep some hours a day not merely 1 hour, and have not suggested otherwise.

heh, I believe that was me, it was a quote from the actual fight club book/film:

"Supposedly he was born in a mental institution, and he sleeps only one hour a night. He's a great man, do you know about Tyler Durden?"

It was meant to be a laugh held by all, not an insult or claim as such, and figured it was harmless within the journal and outside of general chat, particularly this conversation.

[TylerDurden]

heh, I believe that was me, it was a quote from the actual fight club book/film:

"Supposedly he was born in a mental institution, and he sleeps only one hour a night. He's a great man, do you know about Tyler Durden?"

It was meant to be a laugh held by all, not an insult or claim as such, and figured it was harmless within the journal and outside of general chat, particularly this conversation.

Oh, I see. That reminds me, I only ever saw that marvellous film once and remember only 1 or 2 quotations. As an anarchist, I found it a source of inspiration and  I really ought to see it again.

[TylerDurden]

I'm glad to avoid any argument about paleo times, but clearly here with ploughs you are refrenacing some aspect of civilization >7,000 years ago. There is absolutely no way I believe anyone doing their Ploughing and strenous daily life they could ever work up to pulling a 904 lb yoke or a topless car 25 meters. Bfore any mention of steroids, lets just say that these folks would not take their steroids and go out and do pullups and pushups all day while working in their graden.

 We do seem to be talking about quite different things. I'm not talking about strength in general, merely functional strength - so that, with some tasks, a person with higher functional strength would have to endure less effort to carry out particular tasks than a weightlifter etc. Also, the issue of steroids is apt - the fact that so many weightlifters are forced to use artificial methods like steroids in order to bulk up in any serious way, invalidates such a practice as steroids are very harmful in the long-term re side-effects. But even those who don't do steroids and do lots of weightlifting will be more prone to more frequent injury than people doing more normal exercise, so, over time, the lives of the latter will be more productive. Granted, those doing a lot of bodyweight-training and just a bit of weight-training would be less affected, by implication and have better functional strength by comparison.

[Savage]

The simple fact is that strength in the gym or at your house = functional strength (F.S.) and the less body fat you have the more F.S. you have in some situations.

If a person grabs a 50lb dumbbell and does nothing but bicep curls, only then or in similar conditions will it not translate to F.S.

I doubt people on here do something like that  , if someone asks what do to, I'll recommend what I do, 2 days a week of heaviest olympic/power lifting you can do and 5 days of circuit training or mix it with other high intensity training (sparring, competitive sprinting/ swimming/etc...) take 2 days off a week if you feel you need it (not consecutive).

These 2 websites will explain F.S. in Gymnasts & Sprinters better than I can:

1 http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0003/was.html

This one is titled for female gymnasts, but it applies to males and non-gymnasts as well, If you scroll down, I use the exact same table for minimal hypertrophy that they have and my weight workouts are built around those principles.

2 http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/269/

This website does a nice job of explaining why, if I get 2 subjects with the same weight, height and 400m time and one of them just sprints and the other one sprints and does minimal hypertrophy strength training will have more speed and this applies to any aspect of F.S.

"If force alone was the major factor in speed, then a 400-pound man able to pound down 700 pounds of force would win every race -but we know that's not what happens. If we match our 400-pound behemoth against a 170-pound man who can lay down 500 lbs of force, there's no contest.

Big man bites the dust. Why?

Mass-specific force. The 400-pound man is generating a meager 1.75 times his bodyweight against the ground while our thin man is applying a whopping 2.94 times his bodyweight. Like our rocket example, big man can't keep up from the start and quickly runs out of gas trying to push his mammoth mass. Even though the big man can generate 40% more force, it pales compared to the thin man's 68% greater mass-specific force. "

The best bet you can do IMO, is the program I use on top, cut your bf% to the lowest that is healthy for you with Zero carb and calorie cycling (fat=dead weight you have to carry with you all day that slows your performance), lift heavy 2 days week, do high intensity training  3-5 days a week.

The minimum you can get away with if you want noticeable benefits is 2.5 hours/week, 9 hours a week for a few months and you'll be doing some amazing things you never thought you could do.

[TylerDurden]

Well, we will have to agree to disagree re this issue of functional strength as my experiences are quite different re injuries etc.. As for RZC, that meant I was personally unable to lift any weights to any meaningful extent during my RZC phases. I found rather that I needed a lot of raw carbs to keep going. Though I am pleasantly surprised to hear about RZC people like you doing fine with weights as I'd read various sources suggesting that ZC was great for aerobic activity but not for anaerobic activity.

[klowcarb]

Though I am pleasantly surprised to hear about RZC people like you doing fine with weights as I'd read various sources suggesting that ZC was great for aerobic activity but not for anaerobic activity.

Thanks for writing that, Tyler. I am so tired of hearing I need carbs for lifting when I have my best results in strength and leanness without them, including not bonking when lifting and hiking like I was when I was eating carbs.

[Josh]

incluidng not bonking when lifting and hiking like I was when I was eating carbs.

Oh right. I haven't heard of carbs causing this problem before.





 

[Josh]

Savage were you very fit before you went low/zero carb? It makes sense to me that high level of fitness would help adapt to it.

[goodsamaritan]

Thanks for writing that, Tyler. I am so tired of hearing I need carbs for lifting when I have my best results in strength and leanness without them, incluidng not bonking when lifting and hiking like I was when I was eating carbs.

what is "not bonking"?  Is this some american slang for what?

[klowcarb]

Sorry, GS. Bonking is a term for when you "hit the wall" when exercising-you feel like your legs and arms are just wooden.

[Josh]

Or something else in the UK. I'm not one to turn down a cheap joke.

[TylerDurden]

Or something else in the UK. I'm not one to turn down a cheap joke.

Yes, I know. The 1st time klowcarb mentioned that word a while back, I was a bit surprised to say the least until I found out it's also used as an exercising term.

[Savage]

Savage were you very fit before you went low/zero carb? It makes sense to me that high level of fitness would help adapt to it.

Fit, but carrying more bodyfat than now and the carbs made me sluggish.

Now, I'm very fit, this comes from having less body fat, more strength and speed and better fuel which in turn allows me to reach my natural/genetic potential.

Thanks for writing that, Tyler. I am so tired of hearing I need carbs for lifting when I have my best results in strength and leanness without them, incluidng not f*****g when lifting and hiking like I was when I was eating carbs.

Oh right. I haven't heard of carbs causing this problem before.



 

LOL, that's how you read it?  

If I read like that too, that only when you eat carbs, you're bonking when lifting and hiking, then to hell with this ZC crap.......I wanna eat carbs and bonk during lifting and hiking too!!

[klowcarb]

Ha, you guys crack me up. Bonking is more of a term used in endurance sports like running, but I definitely felt it when I was consuming carbs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonk_(condition)

I love fucking and being zero carb; but not having a bad workout!

[Destor]

Personally my goal is simply to have a great physique that I can realistically sustain for a long long time and maintain the best general health possible.  Bigger isn't *better* imho, I've been on health and fitness forums with guys that think weighing anything below 200lbs and squatting less than 600lbs qualifies you as a "pinner".

I'd want to be 180-190 max at 5'8, that sounds sustainable for the next 40ish+ years

[NEUROSPORT]

I find it hard to decide how big and strong to get. At the moment I'm fairly lean and do mostly bodyweight stuff.

I'm very tempted to start the weights and get big and strong. Not extreme bodybuilder, just functional strength and a good size. It's got a lot of advantages for life in our society. I can't help thinking it's not natural though and will have some bad effects later on.

It looks like our ancestors were runners first and foremost, fairly strong, but mostly lean and fit.

What are your thoughts?

i've been up to 215 lbs fairly solid muscle at 5'10" ( could do 30 chin ups at that weight ).  that was definitely a mistake - i now have stretch marks all over my body - my arms, shoulders, chest, back, even my ass.

now my goal is 155 lbs, but only because its the highest weight i think i can maintain at a low bodyfat given all of the injuries i have accumulated over the years and without any performance enhancing drugs ( no money on that now ).

if i was younger, no injuries, and had the money to spend on steroids i would have aimed for about 180 lbs.

girls will like anything above 130 pounds as long as you have a low bodyfat.  but once you go above 200 pounds or so people begin to see you as a freak, a monster and an idiot.

i would advise you not to set any weight goals but rather simply do classic sports such as running, swimming, olympic lifting etc and let your body decide how it wants to look to adapt to that stress.  if you are genuinely fit you will feel good about yourself, which will give you the confidence and the confidence will get you the girls.  it doesn't matter at what weight that happens.

[B.Money]

Have a video of the 30 chins at 215lbs?

[B.Money]

I think some of you could use this 

Weightlifter- A lifter competing in 2 lifts, snatch, and clean and jerk. These lifters compete in the highest weight in a single rep of each movement, then both highest attempts are added up for a "total". The lifter with the highest "total" is the best weightlifter. (Olympics) -also these lifts are highly technical, more emphasis on technique here

Powerlifter- A lifter competing in 3 lifts...squat, bench, deadlift. Also trying to achieve maximum weight in a single rep of each lift. These 3 lifts added together give a total, highest total is the strongest powerlifter. -these lifts are still technical when at a high level, but much less than a weightlifer---more strength is involved here, griding out a heavy weight.

Strongman- Random lifting events usually involving full body strength and endurance. Can be deadlifts, squats, truck pulls, carrying heavy stuff in general. (This is what you have seen on espn and such) -mostly endurance and strength

These 3 types are strength athletes, and they train appropriately to their sport, and they all train entirely differently. They do not train do have ripped abs, or big guns--they train to better themselves in the sport! Therefore its silly to say one or the other is not the best at MMA, or anything else. Its like saying a golfer isn't the best at rugby--they are 2 different things.

Then you have...
Bodybuilder- one who lifts weights for the sole reason of a desired look, with little to no emphasis on strength, or endurance. These are the all show no go guys--but they can always mix in some of the above strength sports, but again that's not whats going to win the competition. They are judged on looks-symmetry, size, and condition.

Gym rat- everyone else. Mostly lifting for looks, but do not compete, in the gym doing their own thing. Usually these are the guys you see making little to no progress year in year out. THIS is what you guys are mostly talking about. Of course these guys have little functional strength---they are not strong, they have not hit a PR or gained a quarter pound in 12 years!