How big?

[NEUROSPORT]

Have a video of the 30 chins at 215lbs?

no, but this is a pic of me @ 215 lbs from those days:

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/9/l_8d1657c34cccc6583df549a97b82e510.jpg

part of the reason i could do it is 1-T the drug i was on.  unlike most steroids that give you water mass 1-T gives you superhuman power with relatively little mass gain.  too bad its no longer available.

the other reason is i had an excellent mind to muscle connection on that exercise.  95% of people simply don't have the brains that it takes to do chin ups effectively.  chin ups are all about being able to recruit your back muscles efficiently.  i could easily do chins without using my arm muscles AT ALL.  most people could never do this not because their muscles aren't strong enough - but because their brains aren't.

also you have to understand that you can train for size or you can train for power.  i trained for power.  for a workout i would do sets of 5 reps of chins with two 45lb plates hanging on the weight belt.

but in retrospect i regret ALL OF IT.  i wish i had never taken drugs and i wish i had never trained hardcore as i did.  i wish i always trained the way i do now - which is mostly just swim and bike, and do some occasional light lifting.  but mistakes in life are inevitable.

[Savage]

but in retrospect i regret ALL OF IT.  i wish i had never taken drugs and i wish i had never trained hardcore as i did.  i wish i always trained the way i do now - which is mostly just swim and bike, and do some occasional light lifting.  but mistakes in life are inevitable.

Why do you say that? Assuming one doesn't take any drugs or eat SAD.

[KD]

now my goal is 155 lbs, but only because its the highest weight i think i can maintain at a low bodyfat given all of the injuries i have accumulated over the years and without any performance enhancing drugs ( no money on that now ).

girls will like anything above 130 pounds as long as you have a low bodyfat.  but once you go above 200 pounds or so people begin to see you as a freak, a monster and an idiot.

i would advise you not to set any weight goals but rather simply do classic sports such as running, swimming, olympic lifting etc and let your body decide how it wants to look to adapt to that stress.  if you are genuinely fit you will feel good about yourself, which will give you the confidence and the confidence will get you the girls.  it doesn't matter at what weight that happens.

I would be curious as well. I don't understand your situation so I won't comment on that, but although your advice sounds appropriate , the weights you list are quite strange. I was around 130-140 with no measurable bodyfat as a fruit eater and it was not a pretty sight at all. I now fluctuate between 160-170, been told I look much bigger than the numbers and am content but there is no way I'm at even an average size. As soon as I have a loose fitting shirt and tight pants I look basically thin. I also have a hard time believing people necessarily see 200lb as freakish, I mean even lean actors can have well over that bodyweight and with fairly little body fat. It might not be the most natural build for all, but certainly appeals to some (women). I don't worry about the girls in this respect, as my build might be appealing as a balance of lean and fit, but I definitely think 10-20 lbs more would look better, although I don't push myself really to get there. I think for many getting in the 150-160 range, no matter how ripped is not going to be the most flattering

[B.Money]

That's damn impressive neuro! What were your other stats at that time?

[ys]

sounds like you are more into looks than health.

girls will like anything above 130 pounds as long as you have a low bodyfat.

i'm sorry but that's bunch of BS.  if a man looks just a little better than gorilla but has confidence and knows how to treat women, he can get any woman he wants.
when i was young and stupid i was thinking in the similar lines, so i bought a cruiser motorcycle to attract women.  it attracted mostly stupid pretty girls.
then i got smarter, got rid of the bike, and had much better success with attractive women (not stupid pretty girls).

[NEUROSPORT]

Why do you say that? Assuming one doesn't take any drugs or eat SAD.

because in the long run all you get from training hardcore is permanent injuries.

you can train a lot - that's fine - just stay moderate and level headed.

it's best not to talk to anybody in the gym and work out alone.  that way you don't have to prove anything to anybody.  you just go about your business and go home.

[NEUROSPORT]

I would be curious as well. I don't understand your situation so I won't comment on that, but although your advice sounds appropriate , the weights you list are quite strange. I was around 130-140 with no measurable bodyfat as a fruit eater and it was not a pretty sight at all. I now fluctuate between 160-170, been told I look much bigger than the numbers and am content but there is no way I'm at even an average size. As soon as I have a loose fitting shirt and tight pants I look basically thin. I also have a hard time believing people necessarily see 200lb as freakish, I mean even lean actors can have well over that bodyweight and with fairly little body fat. It might not be the most natural build for all, but certainly appeals to some (women). I don't worry about the girls in this respect, as my build might be appealing as a balance of lean and fit, but I definitely think 10-20 lbs more would look better, although I don't push myself really to get there. I think for many getting in the 150-160 range, no matter how ripped is not going to be the most flattering

assuming it's you in your avatar you should simply work on your posture.

this is proper posture:

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/images-3/Arnold-Schwarzenegger-bodybuilding.jpg

if you can maintain proper posture with the back straight, chest out and up and stomach sucked in you don't even need any muscles to look athletic.  once again though, most people don't know how to do it.  it's something you have to work on.

[NEUROSPORT]

What were your other stats at that time?

my favorite stat at the time was 165 blood pressure from the drugs i was on.  when the nurse at the doctor's office saw this blood pressure in me (a college student at the time) she said her machine must be broken and she would get a new one.  i told her that her machine was fine.  my other favorite stat was HDL cholesterol level off from normal by a factor of 10X.  sometimes i wonder if during those 2 years i did kill myself and simply don't know it yet.

also i remember sometimes my elbows would give me so much pain ( from overuse ) that i would have tears coming out of my eyes.  one day i ended up going home, taking ultram and then finishing my workout while wearing a winter jacket to keep the elbows as warm as possible.

there was some monumental stupidity going on in those days.  my parents tried to stop me but my logic was that i knew much more about fitness than they did so i didn't have to listen to them.

[B.Money]

What kind of life long injuries are you dealing with now? Hows your blood pressure/cholesterol now?

[KD]

assuming it's you in your avatar you should simply work on your posture.

this is proper posture:

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/images-3/Arnold-Schwarzenegger-bodybuilding.jpg

if you can maintain proper posture with the back straight, chest out and up and stomach sucked in you don't even need any muscles to look athletic.  once again though, most people don't know how to do it.  it's something you have to work on.

I'm sure I have plenty to work on in various departments but I'm not positive what you mean really, this wasn't striking any particular pose, i'm actually looking down at the ground working in the garden although I do tend to slouch anyway.

I'm fairly happy with my athleticism and size,  I'm just pointing out that my build - while probably much more muscular than most people - is still smaller in size visually to the average build and even some old men and so forth. Say even if I look 170 at 160 (here) due to various diet and cleansing differences, 175-185 would still probably be a better fit even if some of that was fat and certainly where I'm at compered to where I've been.

Not speaking specifically to you, but I think people far too often hide behind a notion that SWD eaters are 'overweight'. In my experience on many forums over the years, this can rationalize all kinds of harmful diets and lifestyle and digestive issues or binging. I think there is some truth that the popular conception of the average build has shifted somewhat even in the last 50 years, with maybe someone like Carey Grant representing what an average build might be or something. Still, lets say I was an actor, I could probably only be casted as a junkie or pizza delivery boy (of course these guys always look much better in the movies than real life counterparts) and never any kind of 'normal' role. I'm flipping through the channels and on Entourage, this guy who has a very streamlined hip kind of look (as opposed to Bale or Jackman or something) and is still like what 175-180 lbs?

I'm not saying some can't look great at lower weights, Iwith various experience know numerical weight is only so meaningful, and I've seen some welterweight boxers that just look huge (although they tend to be fairly short) in the 150 range. But likely these ranges are not going to look normal or I believe are very 'paleo' if that is someones concern.

here is Oleg Saitov who won the gold in the Olympics for welterweight in 1996 and 2000. http://visualrian.com/storage/PreviewWM/0569/98/056998.jpg

-
again I'm not sure what you mean about sucking in your stomach and so forth, i'm just talking about going to the store and such and what peoples impressions might be. When I'm actually working out its a different story.

[NEUROSPORT]

What kind of life long injuries are you dealing with now? Hows your blood pressure/cholesterol now?

my rotator cuffs are very weak now because i constantly injured them.  also my hamstring is weak because i once torn it doing sprints.  between the rotator cuffs and the hamstring i can't use high intensity on most exercises any more.

my blood pressure now is borderline high at about 135.  both my parents who are 30 years older than i am have about 100 blood pressure.  my cholesterol is normal now but that doesn't mean that i didn't do permanent damage to my arteries when it was screwed.

[NEUROSPORT]

again I'm not sure what you mean about sucking in your stomach and so forth, i'm just talking about going to the store and such and what peoples impressions might be.

of course you don't know what i'm talking about - that's the entire point

yes i am also talking about going to the store.  the people's impressions of your physique ( in the store ) are going to be about 50% a function of your posture.

with the kind of posture you have in the pic they will think you must have gotten run over by a truck at some point in your life and now living with a broken back.  with proper posture they would think you're a pro athlete.

http://www.ultimatehealthprotocol.com/images/Postures.jpg

the diagram one the right is most people.  the diagram on the left is decent but not the limit.  his back could still be straighter, his chest could still go more forward and up and his stomach could still go further in.  note that it is the SAME person in the diagrams.

basically the forces of gravity work to make you look like the diagram on the right.  if you let those forces win you look weak.  if you overcome them you look athletic.

[goodsamaritan]

You have a resting blood pressure of 135 ?  

Either you've got some awful kidney damage and you are about to die or you are pulling all our legs.

Are you on raw paleo diet or not?

I find this blood pressure hard to believe if you are on raw paleo diet.

I looked at your past posts and it seems you are getting continuous damage from chugging all those high protein shakes daily.

If you switched to raw meat instead of protein shakes you'll save your kidneys and your life.

[Paleo Donk]

with the kind of posture you have in the pic they will think you must have gotten run over by a truck at some point in your life and now living with a broken back.  with proper posture they would think you're a pro athlete.

http://www.ultimatehealthprotocol.com/images/Postures.jpg

Your comparisons are running a little wild don't you think? I do agree that a correct posture can make a huge difference with respect to how others will perceive you. I slouched for many, many years in school and bench pressed incorrectly which lead to me looking like the skeletal figure with bad posture you posted. Head looking down, shoulders pinched forward, thoracic spine curved. I can't seem to stand up straight for more than a few minutes at a time without getting pain somewhere.

As for what is correct posture- that is up for debate and if you do some searching around the forum (search esther gokhale) you will see that many of us believe correct posture to be that which is exhibited by indigenous cultures around the world that normally go barefoot.

I am in the process of rehabilitating myself with a slew of dynamic stretching and light accessory work. One of the programs I am trying to follow that has gotten good reviews is here - http://www.dieselcrew.com/how-to-shoulder-rehab/

Also, many people do steroids without much issue and you can do them relatively safely. This is not an endorsement as nobody here should use them but they aren't as bad as they are made out to be.

[KD]

of course you don't know what i'm talking about - that's the entire point

yes i am also talking about going to the store.  the people's impressions of your physique ( in the store ) are going to be about 50% a function of your posture.

with the kind of posture you have in the pic they will think you must have gotten run over by a truck at some point in your life and now living with a broken back.  with proper posture they would think you're a pro athlete.

http://www.ultimatehealthprotocol.com/images/Postures.jpg

the diagram one the right is most people.  the diagram on the left is decent but not the limit.  his back could still be straighter, his chest could still go more forward and up and his stomach could still go further in.  note that it is the SAME person in the diagrams.

basically the forces of gravity work to make you look like the diagram on the right.  if you let those forces win you look weak.  if you overcome them you look athletic.

ok, maybe I didn't make myself clear, so I'll take your response as 100% well intentioned.

I seriously doubt posture comes into play at all in what I'm talking about specifically. I'm not one in the same with the person who is trying to figure out how to improve my situation to chase girls. My only problem with women is me choosing which ones might not freak out over raw eating. I'm pointing out what is obvious to most westerners that in any posture - say laying down to avoid any possible confusion - that my actual physical body is much smaller than average. Even if I can distort this is positive light, I was actually speaking more of me sizing up others than them me. I already said many people will prefer a yoga-type build these days to some meathead, but that I can be sitting next to an old man or homeless person on the bus and they might have bigger tailored dimensions. I don't they give two shits about my spine.

Laying down I would still fit in the same (probably S-small, I don't own them but I suspect so) male dress shirt and size 30 pants. I love aspects of that and having a smaller build that doesn't require tons of food that I can't afford and eat comfortably. I ran into three different people in the last week I hadn't seen in years and they all mentioned in all earnestness/shocked that I looked extremely well, I don't think they noticed any issues in posture and as I tried to point out, i'm basically about to bend over in that shot with a pasted on face that makes it look more hunched. it could true that I have posture issues otherwise, but my image is not all what I'm talking about. Here are some exercise pics form another thread.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/today%27s-workout/msg37001/#msg37001


Alas, I had to rent a trunk soon anyway, I'll try to lay the reverse direction this time.

[NEUROSPORT]

If you switched to raw meat instead of protein shakes you'll save your kidneys and your life.

i see no logic whatsoever.  it's the total grams of protein that stresses kidneys so what does it matter where that protein comes from.

it's a lose-lose situation man.  if you want to be big - you're going to have to die one way or another.

how many 300 pound 80 year olds do you know ?

that's one of the reasons why i want to diet down to 155 lbs - is for health.  the less my bodyweight the less stress on my internal organs.

[NEUROSPORT]

Also, many people do steroids without much issue and you can do them relatively safely. This is not an endorsement as nobody here should use them but they aren't as bad as they are made out to be.

that's like saying that it's possible to ride a literbike safely.  sure it's possible - if you never make a single mistake you will be just fine.  and if you make that mistake - you will be dead or wishing you were never born.

steroids aren't "bad" - they are DANGEROUS.  if used correctly you will have no problems.  that's a BIG if however.

because most people don't know how to use them correctly.  others know but cannot get the drugs they want and are forced to substitute with other more damaging products.  yet others like me simply lose control and go on a binge.

you have to realize steroids affect your mind, not just your body, and also your physique affects your mind as well.  it becomes a vicious circle - the more drugs you take the bigger you want to be and the bigger you get the more drugs you want to take.  pretty soon everything you know about how to use steroids safely goes out the window and you just start using as much as you can afford to buy.

[NEUROSPORT]

Here are some exercise pics form another thread.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/today%27s-workout/msg37001/#msg37001

i think your upper body is about right size.  you could use bigger legs though i think.

my favorite ways to exercise legs are deadlifts and bike riding.

i would advise you against pursuing greater upper body bulk.  you have a healthy bodyfat percentage but higher than what would be expected from a hollywood star, so you can work on that if you want while keeping overall size constant.

think of Michelangelo's "David" statue as the ideal.  compared to him you are the same size, but not as lean.

[RawZi]

.

    Two hundred pounds can be attractive, to me, and some guys don't need to take steroids to do it.  If you ate enough raw chicken and raw eggs, I seriously doubt you'd get the stretch marks.  It has the right proteins. 

[goodsamaritan]

i see no logic whatsoever.  it's the total grams of protein that stresses kidneys so what does it matter where that protein comes from.

it's a lose-lose situation man.  if you want to be big - you're going to have to die one way or another.

how many 300 pound 80 year olds do you know ?

that's one of the reasons why i want to diet down to 155 lbs - is for health.  the less my bodyweight the less stress on my internal organs.

My grandpa died at almost 100 and he was usually 250 lbs at only 5 foot 3 inches.

Resting Blood Pressure of 135 is so wrong and so unhealthy.

If you went RAW PALEO DIET, you would know that raw protein is different from cooked / processed protein.  Your protein shakes are the cause of kidney problems which in turn cause high blood pressure.  And that raw protein must be buffered by RAW FAT.  So your kidneys survive and thrive.

Unless you experiment for yourself, you don't know yet.

[KD]

think of Michelangelo's "David" statue as the ideal.  compared to him you are the same size, but not as lean.

please re-read my original point

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/how-big/msg38679/#msg38679

I've already expressed my contentment. My comment was about the numbers you gave. I have not posted pics/links or information about myself to impress anyone, on the contrary to state my opinion that it would still be considered to be underweight and slim. People can dispute the validity of that and that is fine, but surely getting in the 130-150 range, with low body fat especially will be an even further deviation from my current 'underweight' or 'some parts fine others not' status at a fairly dense 160. These to me are just facts, I'm not crying for help here. I've had as I've said literally immeasurable bodyfat percentage (under 2%) and it among many things almost killed me. the Hollywood types are just a rule of comparison of a certain level of fullness (not necessarily fitness) that people are familiar with, not a goal per se. My disagreement in relation to the topic is that I feel that I personally would look better with an added 10-15 lbs -at least- and have basically no preference of how much of that was increased bodyfat or not. I havn't been to a gym in almost 4 years, If anything I've tried to get a little fat into my body and do exercises that keep a small level of fitness going in my comparative lazy lifestyle. I do bike for transport but its actually a pain in the ass for me how much it burns calories so I opt for the bus often. Right now I've just recently mixed it up with cross-fit endurance and serious strength training, so if anything it probably will balance my body out as opposed to getting much larger, but I think any further personal critiques would be better placed in my journal.

[NEUROSPORT]

If you went RAW PALEO DIET, you would know that raw protein is different from cooked / processed protein.

but isn't it true that by the time protein has been absorbed into blood stream it has been reduced to amino acids anyway ?

[miles]

There is more to meat than just protein, and there is more to meat protein than just total protein. There is even more to animal than just meat, there is fat and connective tissue. There is also more to fat than just fat...

[NEUROSPORT]

please re-read my original point

don't take it personally.  i am an extremist by nature.  my mind tries to take everything to the extreme.  in my mind there is simply no such concept as "good enough".

I do bike for transport but its actually a pain in the ass for me how much it burns calories so I opt for the bus often.

yes, low intensity cardio ( commuting ) is not very compatible with the goals you have stated.  if you were doing sprints on the bike it would be different.  but sprinting on a bike is quite dangerous to the point where its probably not worth it.

ps: always wear a helmet

[NEUROSPORT]

There is more to meat than just protein, and there is more to meat protein than just total protein. There is even more to animal than just meat, there is fat and connective tissue. There is also more to fat than just fat...

i am not looking for excuses to avoid eating animal flesh.  i WANT to eat it.  but i have to look at it rationally.  out of 3 options:

1 - protein shakes
2 - raw meat
3 - cooked meat

all 3 have their own risks.  anyway this is off topic, let's not derail the thread.