Author Topic: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2  (Read 129855 times)

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Offline KD

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #250 on: January 01, 2011, 12:14:23 am »
My statement is that even though one can cite issues with therapies (even 100% paleo ones), that people should be open to choosing them without issue of them being dismissed as 'artificial' to begin with. They can be dismissed on their own merits/detriments, but not for this reason. These things are not intrinsically worse than instinct in all cases without discussion of the actual results and then results need to be acknowledged without a 'well you just got better anyway' or 'would have been better all paleo/raw' kind of mindset because that is obviously not true in ALL cases.

People need these 'artificial' strategies not just because we are removed form nature, but because all of the internal variables have shifted. Even if we can get a hold of all our instincts and live 100% in nature, it doesn't mean this diet will shift those internal variables, and plenty of people have illustrated running into problems this way as well. If we want to take diet and lifestyle out of just existing without disease and into the mastery of all other goals (physical, spiritual) then you really have to tip your hat to the technologies that have been invented since the paleolithic in being far superior to instincts, particularly when we are divorced from the activities and requirements form sourcing food and mere survival. The simple fact is there is people who use these technologies can have good results not even eating raw or paleo, and people eating raw and paleo might not achieve good results at the same level or even have the same health. I know countless 100% raw people that now found other tactics that have made them healthier. Even if I eat 100%, this doesn't mean that I have all the answers to their particular problems. I clearly do not.

But please, do not dwell on that. Lets say the solutions might be 100% paleo in origin and not dairy or any of these other things, but the simple point is that people can't just 'eat well' or naturally necessarily to eliminate all problems or get the absolute best results within 'paleo' 'raw' etc...

if they could then why are we here talking about all this stuff? seems like alot of people lately have gone against this 'tide' of thinking regardless and actually achieved alot better health than such simplistic thinking had gotten them. so perhaps I am wasting my breath here.

---
To me this is a decent synopsis. most the rest was just a thorough discussion on why this shouldn't even be debatable.

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #251 on: January 01, 2011, 12:53:28 am »
Post of the year KD, congrats...just in time.

Even if God gave me the perfect diet(which I'm sure would include non-paleo tactics) and I did nothing else I am sure I would still feel pretty terrible as my mind has been much more polluted by stress and traumas over the years than diet ever has made me.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #252 on: January 01, 2011, 01:13:49 am »
The trouble is that ultimately, the ancient rawpalaeo practices will always win out. Wodgina gave a perfect example thereof in another thread,  whereby really desperate people with IBS etc. might try foecal transplants despite the fact that "high-meat" would have worked far better for them.

I didn't give an example of high meat being better than transplants. You made that up by yourself.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #253 on: January 01, 2011, 01:18:41 am »
is isn't pointless in regards to the other discussion as I'm not talking about how distant high meat is due to refrigeration which effects all meats. fresh refrigerated meats were not being criticized, high-meats were.

I asked you there point blank if you thought people that are ill should eat high meat even if it does not smell or taste good to them in their state of illness. This is a concrete issue which can affect a number of 100% raw paleo people reading and not some fantasy debate. You never answered even though you now pitch high meat as a therapy for people not even on a RPD diet (who might find raw meat repulsive) who have IBD over other therapies that you've never even tried or needed to. how can you not see the contradiction? Either high meat is valuable as a paleo diet therapy, just like 'low carb' or 'ZC 'is a valuable therapy within RPD or they are not PURELY because they are artificial by the same logic that nature and desire knows best. And not dependent at all on any measurable success over 'not following' them for these reasons. This is all there is to it and I know for certain that you don't disagree and do believe that such guided versions within paleo are necessary over just eating any 'paleo' food in any combination in all cases, even with mastery over instinct.
The point is that people who have been eating rawpalaeodiets throughout their whole lives (and for generations given diets of parents etc. having an influence on future generations in a number of ways) will naturally have instincts for "high-meat" when needed. They would also like the taste of " high-meat" as they would already be used to the taste of raw aged meats. Obviously, our own instincts are somewhat distorted, but I and others have a good reason to trust in our instincts/tastes at times.I'll give an example:-

A decade ago, I had by that point developed severe chronic stomach-aches after eating any cooked animal foods whatsoever, and suddenly I started finding that all such cooked animal foods began tasting extremely bland- this, fortunately made it easier to switch to raw meats. Also during my raw  fruitarian phase, I would get constant massive hunger-pangs which were never sated even when I consumed vast amounts of fruits like oranges,which then made me turn too raw meat diets as a last resort, since I couldn't tolerate cooked animal foods either.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #254 on: January 01, 2011, 01:20:27 am »
I didn't give an example of high meat being better than transplants. You made that up by yourself.
I didn't suggest you did. I merely stated that the faecal transplant as an option was not as likely to be as successful as "high-meat".
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Offline KD

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #255 on: January 01, 2011, 01:37:50 am »
Post of the year KD, congrats...just in time.

Even if God gave me the perfect diet(which I'm sure would include non-paleo tactics) and I did nothing else I am sure I would still feel pretty terrible as my mind has been much more polluted by stress and traumas over the years than diet ever has made me.
Thanks, i'm trying to keep my new year clear of mentioning this unbelievable and inaccurate bias pretense in other threads that have nothing to do with instinctive nutrition. Particularly the ones which were denied as ever occurring and have happened multiple times all over the site since this thread was re-activated. Think I'm going to have to transfer my bank account into pennies and throw in the wishing well at midnight. Wish me luck?


The point is that people who have been eating rawpalaeodiets throughout their whole lives (and for generations given diets of parents etc. having an influence on future generations in a number of ways) will naturally have instincts for "high-meat" when needed. They would also like the taste of " high-meat" as they would already be used to the taste of raw aged meats. Obviously, our own instincts are somewhat distorted, but I and others have a good reason to trust in our instincts/tastes at times.I'll give an example:-

so then you are saying that since we are not multi-generational paleo offspring, we should indeed take on processes and other ways of thinking, even when it goes against instinct as long as it can be shown anecdotally AND have science behind it (like high meat, restrictive diets etc...) to be effective in doing things at times pure daily eating can not.

If that is the case. then all process must be equally weighed on their results, and not how closely we can link them to paleo habits because they are not us. Because rotten meats though consumed in those times were for food/benefits and not in the function of resetting modern problems.

saying instincts CAN be trusted sometimes has never been under attack I don't think. Just that there will always be situations where man-made interperations can be superior.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #256 on: January 01, 2011, 01:41:28 am »
This business re instinct/nature and artificial methods is not so clear-cut. Sure, one can get an advantage by say inventing cars,  but that invention has led to people becoming more unfit, and so on. Same with electricity, as some people have found they are acutely sensitive to electricity to the point of ill-health.

Also, again and again, it has been found that people do better if they adopt more natural habits re sleep-patterns, diet or whatever.

As for a rawpalaeodiet not curing everything, no diet can cure hypochondria or severe ailments which require immediate surgery or the like. That's obvious and I never suggested otherwise.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #257 on: January 01, 2011, 01:47:15 am »
Thanks, i'm trying to keep my new year clear of mentioning this unbelievable and inaccurate bias pretense in other threads that have nothing to do with instinctive nutrition. Particularly the ones which were denied as ever occurring and have happened multiple times all over the site since this thread was re-activated. Think I'm going to have to transfer my bank account into pennies and throw in the wishing well at midnight. Wish me luck?

so then you are saying that since we are not multi-generational paleo offspring, we should indeed take on processes and other ways of thinking, even when it goes against instinct as long as it can be shown anecdotally AND have science behind it (like high meat, restrictive diets etc...) to be effective in doing things at times pure daily eating can not.

If that is the case. then all process must be equally weighed on their results, and not how closely we can link them to paleo habits because they are not us. Because rotten meats though consumed in those times were for food/benefits and not in the function of resetting modern problems.

saying instincts CAN be trusted sometimes has never been under attack I don't think. Just that there will always be situations where man-made interperations can be superior.
Wrong, precisely because we are flawed and warped by our modern civilisation, we should therefore adopt more natural processes which occurred well before those flaws entered our society. Emulating palaeo man makes perfect sense since we have not changed much genetically from palaeo peoples, so that via epigenetics we can influence the health of our children in a positive manner etc.. It's only in freakish, highly unusual circumstances, such as if peoples'  health is in such a state that they require surgery or the like, that a rawpalaeodiet  would not work.

"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline KD

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #258 on: January 01, 2011, 01:53:26 am »
its not just people with extreme problems, its people following 100% raw paleo diets right now in the forum that arn't invalids. READ the forum instead of categorizing it based on ideals you already have in your head man. The solution might still be all raw and all paleo, but you can't generalize. Emulation is the absolute worst strategy for health. Everyone has different needs, even healthy-ish people or people following 100% raw and can be improved or necessary to apply a variety of tactics not having anything to do with just eating pure food or instinct.

like I said before, please actually engage with the the most anecdotal evidence we have at  hand - the actual results on this forum - before making such absolute statements with dismissive caveats regarding some extreme cases.

Offline KD

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #259 on: January 01, 2011, 02:00:39 am »
Wrong, precisely because we are flawed and warped by our modern civilisation, we should therefore adopt more natural processes which occurred well before those flaws entered our society. Emulating palaeo man makes perfect sense since we have not changed much genetically from palaeo peoples, so that via epigenetics we can influence the health of our children in a positive manner etc.. It's only in freakish, highly unusual circumstances, such as if peoples'  health is in such a state that they require surgery or the like, that a rawpalaeodiet  would not work.



you are also leaving out how specific problems of society, modern/neolithic food, and degeneration require specific foods and habits to actually be removed from the body, and therefore again we couldn't follow an exact daily diet of our ancestors even if we were 100% certain. You are basically just uttering the typical and most naive of natural hygiene stance at this point -that health occurs in healthy circumstances removing all causes of illness - so I'll just point that out instead of responding further. HNY

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #260 on: January 01, 2011, 02:45:04 am »
you are also leaving out how specific problems of society, modern/neolithic food, and degeneration require specific foods and habits to actually be removed from the body, and therefore again we couldn't follow an exact daily diet of our ancestors even if we were 100% certain. You are basically just uttering the typical and most naive of natural hygiene stance at this point -that health occurs in healthy circumstances removing all causes of illness - so I'll just point that out instead of responding further. HNY
Rubbish, of course. The whole point is that going rawpalaeo means we avoid modern/neolithic food  and then start to heal and recover. And, sure we live in artificial circumstances, but that still means we can improve our health more by emulating more natural habits than using artificial means. There may be unusual exceptions requiring surgery( car-accidents can hardly be cured exclusively by a rawpalaeodiet) but they are merely the exceptions that prove the rule.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #261 on: January 01, 2011, 02:45:20 am »
Yes, we have some Russian friends that look very Asian...my parents friends are both very caucasian-european looking but their son I could swear is Chinese, really, he looks Chinese. If I examine my facial structure closely I can see many Asian features, and the yellowish pale skin which I have is a definite common trait. I don't even tan easily, but I don't get burned by the sun either (unless I purposely fry myself in it). I think many caucasians and asians are very close relatives.
Yes, I was aware that the ancestors of many Europeans may have come to Europe via parts of Asia--though I've never seen SE Asia mentioned as one of the Asian origin locations by scientists. Usually central, western and northern Asia are cited. For example, I have read about a hypothesis that many of my Irish ancestors came to Europe via the North-Central Asian ancestral homeland of the same people that the Asian Kets (aka Deng aka Jugung) descended from, in what is today Asian Russia. This is why I was careful not to suggest that Europeans were not related to any Asians and specified just the South/Southeast Asian areas where the tropical fruits that GCB touts originated (such as New Guinea and the Philippines). I even got chewed out once by a European American just for mentioning the hypothesis of an Irish-Kets connection :) (I suspect he was xenophobic, though I'm not sure--he may have just been thoroughly convinced of the more conventional hypothesis that most of the ancestors of the Irish came to Europe via the Caucasuses).

It's also interesting how similar the Asian steppe horse cultures over the ages (Mongol, Tatar, Hunnish, Tuvan, Turkic, etc.) were to Celtic, Scythian and North American Plains Indian horse cultures. I find the Asian-Celtic similarities and possible connections to be a fascinating area of inquiry.

To reconnect this to the thread topic, my point was that GCB and some other Instinctos have touted South/SE Asian fruits as especially beneficial and have even seemed to imply that they are healthful in part because they match the sort of foods that were eaten plentifully in an original human habitat (though GCB backtracked from that when I inquired further into it), yet I have seen no evidence that the ancient ancestors of most Europeans ever stepped foot during the Paleolithic in the parts of SE Asia like New Guinea where some of GCB's favorite fruits originated. Most maps (such as this one http://www.brilliantstudent.in/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/genographic-project.jpg) and writings I've seen have the ancestors of Europeans migrating over time to Europe via the area of the Caucasus mountains and/or Central/Northern/Western Asia rather than South/Southeast Asian areas like New Guinea, the Philippines, Vietnam, etc. If anyone has evidence to the contrary I'd be happy to consider it.

One of my questions to Francois that I think ties into what KD has been saying, is whether wild animals rely solely on instinct in selecting foods, or whether adult wild animals sometimes also teach infants what to eat and what not to eat as well as where/how to get it. Increasingly, scientists have been finding that many animals teach and pass down knowledge and even culture from one generation to the next and share and mimic new skills within the same generation. It has also been said that traditional cultures learned at times from animals what foods to eat and what not to eat. So I'm wondering if there may be more than instincts and senses involved. Maybe brainpower plays more of a role even in the wild than GCB seems to have written about?

GCB apparently says that we should rely on our senses of smell, taste and vision. Let's take an extreme case to see what it tells us. What about someone who has lost those senses? What should they do? Wouldn't they then have to rely on their brain and communications with others rather than their senses?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #262 on: January 01, 2011, 02:49:50 am »
its not just people with extreme problems, its people following 100% raw paleo diets right now in the forum that arn't invalids. READ the forum instead of categorizing it based on ideals you already have in your head man. The solution might still be all raw and all paleo, but you can't generalize. Emulation is the absolute worst strategy for health. Everyone has different needs, even healthy-ish people or people following 100% raw and can be improved or necessary to apply a variety of tactics not having anything to do with just eating pure food or instinct.

like I said before, please actually engage with the the most anecdotal evidence we have at  hand - the actual results on this forum - before making such absolute statements with dismissive caveats regarding some extreme cases.
The trouble is that YOU are over-generalising. Rawpalaeodiets appear to have done very well for people, judging from this forum's posts and others. Sure some people have found additional methods, such as the Bates Method etc., which also help, but these do not conflict with a rawpalaeodiet anyway. The few exceptions appear, almost universally, to have clear hypochondria-related reasons for their "symptoms" given the extremely unlikely and constant  symptoms they regularly mention, and therefore cannot remotely be taken seriously.

What I find bizarre is that you have accepted, re 1 comment, that instincts can sometimes be useful. So there is no need to go on an all-out attack on Instincto. Instincto is a belief like any other one within rawpalaeo, and undoubtedly has many flaws and many strengths.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #263 on: January 01, 2011, 03:50:56 am »
One of my questions to Francois that I think ties into what KD has been saying, is whether wild animals rely solely on instinct in selecting foods, or whether adult wild animals sometimes also teach infants what to eat and what not to eat as well as where/how to get it.

Of course, using our instinct doesn't exclude at all that we communicate between us about what we found good tasting and how to get it - as animals do between them and between generations. But no matter how loud you tell your kid about how onions are good smelling, tasty and necessary to his health, if that kid doesn't like onions, it'll be hard to force feed him onions.

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GCB apparently says that we should rely on our senses of smell, taste and vision. Let's take an extreme case to see what it tells us. What about someone who has lost those senses? What should they do? Wouldn't they then have to rely on their brain and communications with others rather than their senses?

Why not. If a guy has both legs and both arms amputated, we can carry him and feed him.  >D

Just answered because the first quote is specifically addressed to me. I feel the rest of the arguments aimed against the instincto theory in this whole discussion are beating a dead horse. May I suggest once again that the contributors read GCB’s book to know what he says before arguing? So, the arguments could be properly targeted instead of falling endlessly way of the mark, filling pages after pages on this poor thread!

Instincto is a belief like any other one within rawpalaeo,

No, I don't think the word "belief" is suitable. It's rather a questioning of the current dogmas and way of thinking in nutrition - and an experiment.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 07:02:23 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #264 on: January 01, 2011, 05:57:35 am »
Of course, using our instinct doesn't exclude at all that we communicate between us about what we found good tasting and how to get it - as animals do between them and between generations. But no matter how loud you tell your kid about how onions are good smelling, tasty and necessary to his health, if that kid doesn't like onions, it'll be hard to force feed him onions.
Yes, I've often found that forcing myself to eat something "because it's good for me" is often not necessary. On the other hand, I do think that KD is right that sometimes a food that doesn't taste good to us at first may be good for us nonetheless, because our systems and/or taste buds have become disordered on processed foods and it can take time to re-acclimate our bodies to healthy foods. Thus, just because raw liver and high meat didn't taste good to me at first doesn't mean it was necessarily bad for me at the time, and eating some now and then has enabled me to gradually develop some taste for it, though I'm still not thrilled by it.

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Why not. If a guy has both legs and both arms amputated, we can carry him and feed him.  >D
Right, :D but someone is using their brain rather than his senses in choosing the food for him, whether he himself or we who feed him. Just as when a mother cat chooses a mouse to feed a kitten or nudges a kitten away from a porcupine. The kitten's senses weren't used, instead it was the mother's brain teaching the kitten and the kitten's brain learning. So I think wild animals use their minds as well as their senses in determining what to eat. So GCB is right about not ignoring the senses, but KD is also right about using one's brain. I think that you and GCB and other Instinctos do use your brains as well as your senses, it just doesn't get much play in the Instincto writings.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #265 on: January 01, 2011, 06:49:45 am »
Yes, I've often found that forcing myself to eat something "because it's good for me" is often not necessary. On the other hand, I do think that KD is right that sometimes a food that doesn't taste good to us at first may be good for us nonetheless, because our systems and/or taste buds have become disordered on processed foods and it can take time to re-acclimate our bodies to healthy foods. Thus, just because raw liver and high meat didn't taste good to me at first doesn't mean it was necessarily bad for me at the time, and eating some now and then has enabled me to gradually develop some taste for it, though I'm still not thrilled by it.

We have to re-learn with the help of others. GCB, his family and friends made mistakes during years and if they finally succeeded it's because he's a meticulous and stubborn researcher and observer. Starting alone is most probably bound to be a failure. Training is necessary, I think it's been said several times here.
 
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Just as when a mother cat chooses a mouse to feed a kitten or nudges a kitten away from a porcupine. The kitten's senses weren't used, instead it was the mother's brain teaching the kitten and the kitten's brain learning. So I think wild animals use their minds as well as their senses in determining what to eat. So GCB is right about not ignoring the senses, but KD is also right about using one's brain. I think that you and GCB and other Instinctos do use your brains as well as your senses, it just doesn't get much play in the Instincto writings.

Animals don’t know and don’t care about nutrients, anti-nutrients, enzymes, fat/proteins ratios, insulin, complex carbs sources and all that fucking stuff people here hopelessly use their damned minds to try know what and how much to eat.

My cat was separated very young and thus there was no time for his mother to teach him, moreover as she was fed commercial pet food. Nevertheless, he started to hunt and eat mice without me having to teach him. By the way, Yuli pointed out once that the smell and taste signals are processed by the brain anyway, so we better use the words "mental" or "intellect" instead of "brain". Of course, we use our intellect to find food, I think it's already been said as well. Using our instinct does not imply idiocy.

Did you read GCB’s book?

Happy New Year 2011… using both our intelligence and instinct! It's just midnight in Western Europe.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #266 on: January 01, 2011, 07:15:08 am »
We have to re-learn with the help of others. GCB, his family and friends made mistakes during years and if they finally succeeded it's because he's a meticulous and stubborn researcher and observer. Starting alone is most probably bound to be a failure. Training is necessary, I think it's been said several times here.
Yes, and I have acknowledged that, I just added the element that using the brain can be useful in selecting which foods to eat, even in the wild and by wild animals, not just in learning how or where to get foods or in choosing more wild-like foods over more domesticated ones. I've read some of GCB's writings and your posts and I haven't come across anything about this yet.
 
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Animals don’t know and don’t care about nutrients, anti-nutrients, enzymes, fat/proteins ratios, insulin, complex carbs sources and all that fucking stuff people here hopelessly use their damned minds to try know what and how much to eat.
Correct, but they also don't rely entirely on what tastes, smells or looks good to eat. They also learn by experience and observation and pass on what they learn to others or mimic what others do. This has been observed repeatedly by scientists in recent years.

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My cat was separated very young and thus there was no time for his mother to teach him, moreover as she was fed commercial pet food. Nevertheless, he started to hunt and eat mice without me having to teach him.
I'm not saying that instincts and senses don't play a highly important role, just that they are not the sole tool used in nature.

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By the way, Yuli pointed out once that the smell and taste signals are processed by the brain anyway, so we better use the words "mental" or "intellect" instead of "brain".
Yeah, I wondered if you would bring that up, as the mind is not limited to the brain, but surely you knew what I meant. I was using brain as a shorthand for more complex realities, and didn't I also use the term "mind" at least once?

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Of course, we use our intellect to find food, I think it's already been said as well.
I extended that to include using intellect to choose which foods to eat when it's not perfectly clear. This would mainly happen with infants and people encountering new foods they are not familiar with, such as when nomads moved to a new and quite different environment. It also occurs with bodies disordered by modern diets and lifestyles, such as my choosing to eat liver and heart despite not caring much for them because of my past modern diet.

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Using our instinct does not imply idiocy.
I wasn't trying to imply that. Of course I don't think that you or GCB were advocating idiocy. I had hoped you wold give me more credit than that.

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Did you read GCB’s book?
Yes, though I admittedly skimmed through it and skipped some portions where I was getting bored and it was some time ago. I refer back to it now and then and read snippets when I have a specific question.

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Happy New Year 2011… using both our intelligence and instinct! It's just midnight in Western Europe.

Same to you, and many happy returns!
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
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Offline miles

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #267 on: January 01, 2011, 09:27:31 am »
There's also different levels of instinct, like short/medium/long-term. It was by instinct that I originally started trying to stop eating fruits, and then plants in general, and then by instinct that I felt I should then try having raw meat. It's not only the short-term of thinking what you want at that moment from what you have available which is instinct.

All our senses can influence our instinct, not just taste/smell, but also how we feel.
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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #268 on: January 01, 2011, 04:30:28 pm »
Same to you, and many happy returns!

Thank you!

Well, I still have your former post (which is now 3 pages back  :o) to answer… but let’s talk about your last one first.

I don’t know how animals would use their intellect to choose their food and I wonder if they do it at all. When you carefully observe mammals, you see that they very much rely on their smell sense. Sure, “they also learn by experience and observation and pass on what they learn to others or mimic what others do.” My cat observes me when I eat, he’s curious and apparently he likes to know what I’m eating. Sometimes I put it front of his nose and then he turns away, seemingly to say: “ah, that’s not for me!”

Unless I happen to be extremely hungry, I would never have instinctively found out that liver, a crab, shellfish or even pine nuts are palatable. So, by observing what others eat, I learned. I agree that knowledge of what can be edible is, at least in part, transmitted from generation to generation. But it must have originated from a first, probably some individual who was extremely hungry, tasted something never eaten before by its specie and found it pleasant. Such passed on knowledge shouldn’t usually be in conflict with our instinct since we are of the same specie and should have the same needs and same senses of taste.

But, if I’m repealed by the smell and taste of some stuff someone else is eating, then I won’t eat it. Since we, modern humans, had an extremely different environmental,  nutritional, health and even genetic history, our needs may wildly diverge and that’s where conventional dietary way of thinking becomes ineffective.

But it’s remarkable that instinctive findings and raw paleo dietary principles converge on the basic points. That we should eat raw animal food was discovered instinctively, for fish by the eldest son of GCB who was 4 or 5 years old at the time and for meat a bit latter by GCB himself: at the market and passing by the fishmonger stall, the son told his father: “dad, I wanna eat a fish, buy me a fish!”

The whole family had been eating raw for sometimes, but it had not come to their mind that we can and must eat raw fish and raw meat. So the father was rather surprised. Anyway, he bought a fish, gave it to his son who instantly gobbled it raw in front of the flabbergasted fishmonger! Sometime latter, the father passed by a butcher stall and was bewildered to be attracted by the smell of raw meat. He then introduced it raw on the family table and everyone found it appetizing.

I don’t feel we ever pretended that instincts and senses are the sole tool used in nature. Of course, there are others. But our instinct is far superior to any diet expert or ideology in precisely choosing the right food in the right amount for each specific individual at each given moment.

No problem, I understood that we used the word “brain” instead of a more appropriate word such as “mind”. My sentence about using instinct not implying idiocy was a caricature, sorry about that.

I’m glad that you did read at least some parts of GCB’s book, so that we can have a better targeted and more constructive dialogue.

There's also different levels of instinct, like short/medium/long-term. It was by instinct that I originally started trying to stop eating fruits, and then plants in general, and then by instinct that I felt I should then try having raw meat. It's not only the short-term of thinking what you want at that moment from what you have available which is instinct.

All our senses can influence our instinct, not just taste/smell, but also how we feel.

Yes, I agree.

Best wishes for 2011
François
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 04:43:39 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #269 on: January 01, 2011, 04:42:50 pm »
Francois,

Love that story about that 5 year old grandson and the fish!

Hope to read more of the decades old instincto stories!

I was just re-reading Aajonus' book last night and he says he did some 6 years of instinctive eating...
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #270 on: January 01, 2011, 04:49:34 pm »
Thanks! Actually it was his eldest son who is about 50 now, not grandson. So, Aajonus knows about instinctive nutrition, practiced it for 6 years (when?) and he found something better - or rather more sale-able?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 05:06:45 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #271 on: January 01, 2011, 05:30:56 pm »
Thanks! Actually it was his eldest son who is about 50 now, not grandson. So, Aajonus knows about instinctive nutrition, practiced it for 6 years (when?) and he found something better - or rather more sale-able?

He said he wound up eating too much fruit.
Said he had teeth problems and over emotions.
So he cut down to one serving of fruit a day.
He said he knows less fruit is less enjoyable, but says his health improved.
I think some people are fruit sensitive.
And some people just overdo it.
(like my wife who overdoses on rambutan)
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #272 on: January 01, 2011, 06:29:26 pm »
Yes, and Aajonus foolishly chose raw veggie juice as an alternative to raw fruit.
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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #273 on: January 02, 2011, 07:40:01 am »
Francois, I think we are in basic agreement on my main overall point which is not that the senses are never used, just that they are not the sole determiners of what to eat in any human society. I choose to also use my brain to learn, observe, communicate, etc. in selecting my foods.

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The whole family had been eating raw for sometimes, but it had not come to their mind that we can and must eat raw fish and raw meat.
You mean they started out as raw vegans?

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I don’t feel we ever pretended that instincts and senses are the sole tool used in nature. Of course, there are others.
It's good to see that you acknowledge their role.

Thanks, for your time, Francois.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #274 on: January 04, 2011, 04:05:42 am »
You mean they started out as raw vegans?

As raw vegetarians.  The first question was “No animal cook food, why are we cooking ?” And they started to eat all raw, instinctively, unmixed, unseasoned. They were still eating raw dairy (and perhaps raw eggs, but that I’m not sure), but for some periods GCB didn’t eat any dairy. When he started to have dairy again, he noticed that he got inflammations (for example around small wounds) and even that spontaneous infections appeared. He then thought that the milk they got from an organic farmer wasn't ok. So they bought a goat to have their own milk and to be sure of its quality. Still it caused inflammations and infections.

Then another question came: what’s wrong with the milk? It took him some time, some more experiments and some more thinking until he realized that no animal drinks the milk of another animal species and that that no animal drinks milk in adulthood. So, the next step was to suppress all dairy.

Having suppressed all or almost all sources of animal food, there’s no wonder it didn’t take long for raw fish and raw meat to become attractive!

All that was around 1964 – 1965. At the time, eating raw fish and raw meat was absolutely out of question for everyone in Switzerland. The fact that on the other side of the planet Pacific Islanders and Japaneses had always eaten raw fish without any problems was completely overlooked in Europe and W. A. Price work was almost unknown.

Cheers
François    
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

 

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