The Wodg Journal

[Satya]

Correction I can eat that much celery and I do if I feel like it. Placebo? Umm, I really don't buy that I did a lot of drugs when I was younger and I got sold a lot of fake pills and stuff like that. I know what placebo is like, what ever the green juices do for me it ain't placebo. Doesn't mean it's good. Can some one provide me with these studies?

Okay, the placebo remark was rather glib.  Broccoli, kale, cabbage and other brassicas (the older term is crucifer) are pretty recent additions to the human diet.  That they can disrupt thyroid function (and cause other problems) can be found by reading this well-referenced article here:

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/crucifers.html

That plants produce toxins to ward off evil predators is just an act of nature.  Celery produces carcinogens in small amounts, but when you juice them, they will be in greater quantities than that which can be eaten in their whole-food state.  If the celery is bruised, don't eat it.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/oct/07/health/he-eating7

Also, there's an entire blog devoted to the anti-celery movement (kinda reminds me of the tomatoes are evil site).

http://celeryfree.blogspot.com/
 

[Satya]

Andrew, this is probably very ignorant on my part, as I forget if you ever mentioned where you live in Australia.  But I am hoping that neither you, nor any of your family are affected by the wild fires I am reading about on the news.  I am hoping that my concern is as unfounded as a storm in Massachusetts is to me in Texas.  Be well, mon ami!  And may these fires end soon!

[wodgina]

Luckily I'm about a far away as Massachusetts is to Texas. Thank God.

I haven't watched the TV but sounds pretty bad.

[wodgina]

I wish I could check out the anti-celery and anti-tomotoes site (work blocking sites)

I've been reading Charles zero carb forum and find it interesting that the longer that people are on zero carb the more likely they are to shy away from pork/chicken/fish/eggs/dairy and stick with beef mirroring my own positive experience with beef compared to other meats although I suspect it's just a red meat thing.

Also I noticed  that the longer term zero carb people (only meat/fat and water) find that just one cup of coffee or added salt etc can cause electrolyte problems like cramps. Or even over drinking can cause cramps.

I find it's best not to drink after hard sweating as I'm not that thirsty anyway but if I do drink I get a sore stomach and cramps. I find that I get thirsty later in the day and make up for any fluid loss later on.

It seems the body gets more finely tuned on meat/fat and water than on any other diet.

[SilentBuddy]

Andrew,

Are you affected by the wildfire? It is so sad that so many people died.

[TylerDurden]

Andrew,

Are you affected by the wildfire? It is so sad that so many people died.

Andrew lives in Perth in Western Australia. I believe the wildfire is somewhere in the Adelaide area(South Australia)

[Satya]

I've been reading Charles zero carb forum and find it interesting that the longer that people are on zero carb the more likely they are to shy away from pork/chicken/fish/eggs/dairy and stick with beef mirroring my own positive experience with beef compared to other meats although I suspect it's just a red meat thing.

Also I noticed  that the longer term zero carb people (only meat/fat and water) find that just one cup of coffee or added salt etc can cause electrolyte problems like cramps. Or even over drinking can cause cramps.

I find it's best not to drink after hard sweating as I'm not that thirsty anyway but if I do drink I get a sore stomach and cramps. I find that I get thirsty later in the day and make up for any fluid loss later on.

It seems the body gets more finely tuned on meat/fat and water than on any other diet.

I have been reading Charles' forum too.  I'll never get through all the posts - it's just too active.  I think you are spot on about the evolution of a zero carber towards red meat and water.  Lamb is really good too, I like it better than beef sometimes.  But then, when you think about it, ruminant meat has CLA and other nutrients that other foods just don't.  I think poultry is pretty puny on nutrients, and I have almost completely given it the boot.  If you can get really good pork, it might contain vitamin D.  But nothing comes close to beef/lamb/other ruminants.  That said, I love fish.  I will have some salmon roe tonight with my raw beef.  But sashimi does not give me the deep sleep that raw beef does.

Interesting about the drinking.  I hope you'll consider posting a picture of your zero carb self sometime.  Maybe you already have.  I'll have to go look.

I am glad you are not in the fire zone.  I couldn't remember where you were, except country.

[lex_rooker]

I've found that red meat, (deer, elk, beef, bison, etc), is the only meat that is fully satsifying.  I can eat turkey, chicken, duck, shrimp, fish, and eggs, but find that I'm hungry again within a few of hours of eating.

I also found that adding a gram or two of salt to my food each day stopped the night time leg cramps I was experinecing.  I think this is at odds with what's being said on Charles forum but it is my experience.  Two grams of salt isn't much and I could probably even do with much less, but I also believe Dr. Barry Groves when he says that salt is an important source for the Chloride ions our body needs to make our digestive juices.

Another point about Charles forum is that most are eating their food cooked.  This could account for some of the differences in experinece as well as the larger amount of activity in that forum.

Lex

[van]

  I always try to share that I am finding good results from ionic minerals from the great Salt Lake.  They have most of the sodium removed and are high in Magnesium, and Chlorides as well as almost all of the trace minerals .  They come in a liquid form that actually makes my drinking water very tasty.  That seemed to solved my cramping problems, and I have in the last month eliminated salt.  Never used that much to begin with, but it seems to have even helped additionally with any cramps. 

[wodgina]

I will post some photos in the next couple of months.

Most zero carbers on Charles's formum eat medium grain fed steaks...some people eat their's raw or just sear the outside but most think raw meat is 'icky'! and you can forget organ meat...eskimoes threw them away! all that hunting and throw half the animal away! hmmm

Another reason why Charles's forum is so popular is because people are really making some real health gains and Charles photo's speak for themselves. The guy looks real fit.

[TylerDurden]

Charles does marathons, which is why he looks good, not because of any diet.

As far as the Inuit are concerned, I've had so many cooked zero-carbers claim that at least some, if not all, of the Inuit just threw the organ-meats away - trouble is the only source for this is Vilhjalmur Stefansson  with every other Arctic explorer  or nutritionist/anthropoogist that I've heard of stating the exact opposite, that the Inuit used virtually every part of the animal whether for food or for other purposes(other hunter-gatherer tribes, such as pre-Contact Native Americans, did the same). Given that there are several problems with Stefansson's claims over his Bellevue Experiment, there is good reason to doubt anything he said.I mean his books are littered with inaccuracies such as a claim that the Australian Aborigines ate mostly or wholly meats and fats. Turns out that, once they wiped out the megafauna 40,000 years ago or so, they turned to large amounts of plant-matter for their diet.

[Nicola]

Charles does marathons, which is why he looks good, not because of any diet.

As far as the Inuit are concerned, I've had so many cooked zero-carbers claim that at least some, if not all, of the Inuit just threw the organ-meats away - trouble is the only source for this is Vilhjalmur Stefansson  with every other Arctic explorer  or nutritionist/anthropoogist that I've heard of stating the exact opposite, that the Inuit used virtually every part of the animal whether for food or for other purposes(other hunter-gatherer tribes, such as pre-Contact Native Americans, did the same). Given that there are several problems with Stefansson's claims over his Bellevue Experiment, there is good reason to doubt anything he said.I mean his books are littered with inaccuracies such as a claim that the Australian Aborigines ate mostly or wholly meats and fats. Turns out that, once they wiped out the megafauna 40,000 years ago or so, they turned to large amounts of plant-matter for their diet.

This man has a wife and children; looks good, feels good on no marathons (well he hasn't mentioned any yet):

I noticed you haven't received any responses to your thread. I can share with you my wife and I's experience with organ meat. We thought that it would be helpful and healthful after reading up on the various benefits to eating liver, heart etc.. We tried them all and I do mean ALL and found no benefit. In fact they made us feel pretty darn awful: headaches, fatigue and diarrhea.

Keep in mind that this is our experience. There may be others that do well eating organ meat.

Delfuego

I have a theory on why pemmican worked to heal my wife but raw meat and fat or cooked meat and fat didn't. First, the meat in pemmican is still raw it's just been dried not cooked. Secondly, the digestibility of pemmican HAS to be a factor. I remember the first I heard of pemmican was in the book "Neanderthin". Ray Audette mentioned that pemmican was the perfect food because it digests so completely. He compared it to mother's milk. I don't have the book in front of me or else I'd quote it! And thirdly, this may seem weird to some of you but I believe pemmican may be the only food that is completely devoid of mold or bacteria.

We did a test once and tried eating the dried meat (not yet powdered) dipped in rendered fat. We were eating the essential pemmican elements (dried red meat and rendered animal fat) but not in pemmican form. We ate this way for several weeks and the results were staggering (at least to us!)! She started to get sick again - ALL of the Lyme disease suffering was coming back! We switched back to pure pemmican and BAM! She was better!

Bacteria, mold, fungus, candida and apparently even the Lyme bacteria cannot exist within animal fat (at least not within beef or bison fat). This means that not only is she not feeding her disease through what she eats but she is also actively KILLING her disease by how she eats.

We've tried everything in every way related to meat and fat to get her well - pemmican works ... always! So we love it - we love it for how strong it makes us, we love it for how happy it makes us, we love it for how beautiful it makes us and we love it for how loving it makes us!

Sincerely,
Delfuego

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=81&pid=36852#pid36852

I wonder what he thinks about salt?

Nicola

[TylerDurden]

I do wish you wouldn't transfer posts from this forum to other forums, and vice-versa. It just creates flame-wars and doesn't help at all. Please desist.

As  regards Charles, I was under the impression that he jogs under racing conditions. I suppose he doesn't do marathons, in hindsight, as zero-carbers don't appear to do well in anaerobic sports/activities.

I suppose it's possible for some people to become hypersensitive to molds etc. in which case raw meats might be an issue for those unique conditions but most such hypersensitivities/allergies etc. tend to be caused in the first place by eating cooked/processed diets.  A lot of rawists find that, as a result of their immune-systems etc being compromised that they develop new allergies to things like dairy/fish etc.

[van]

  not that we're voting, and you are running this forum,  but I don't see or feel the 'flame' or the harm.  I think it's all good.  It especially helps me to condsider all the various view points.  For it is so easy to simply 'believe' I now know.  When in fact I bet most all of us in ten or twenty years will have significant changes in what we eat.  Just my viewpoint.

[Raw Kyle]

The problem I see with whole quoting, other than the fact that the original author might not want it quoted, is that it creates a culture on the board of trying to prove yourself ultimately right over everyone else. A much better atmosphere for personal growth imo is an open one where people talk about their experiences and things they've learned from others. Whether that is friends, books, television, radio interviews, or other forums. Once it gets to "well this study says this" or "this guy eats this and is healthy, so that means you're wrong" than it really takes a step down for me in terms of helping people come to their own healthy conclusions. Diet is a loaded topic and everyone wants to be right, but I learned on raw vegan forums that no matter how sure you are of something you shouldn't word it 100% strong because you might change your mind and even if you are correct your tone might make people not want to read your thoughts anyway. I for one would not like to see posts of mine on a forum like Charles' being quoted by people to try and make him look stupid or prove something he wrote wrong, even if I disagree with him or anyone else.

[van]

I agree with you.  I don't see Nicola trying to prove anyone wrong or right.  It seems she simply posts to add more info.  And yes, there is the privacy issue, except that forums are public in nature.  So, it has more to do with the intent.  And regarding intent again, Nicola is very active in pulling information from all over, and brings a lot of wealth of ideas that wouldn't necessarily be found in one particular forum.  We tend to support what we want to believe.  She shakes that up some.  And yes,  some forums are mainly for the support to maintain a certain discipline.  And for some who don't need that type of support, they may be 'hungry' for a more persistent truth.  And that is what mixing it up brings to me personally.     I really don't care either way, for I tend to read in other forums including charles'.  And like this forum, I feel they too have much to offer.

[wodgina]

Charles does marathons, which is why he looks good, not because of any diet.

As far as the Inuit are concerned, I've had so many cooked zero-carbers claim that at least some, if not all, of the Inuit just threw the organ-meats away - trouble is the only source for this is Vilhjalmur Stefansson  with every other Arctic explorer  or nutritionist/anthropoogist that I've heard of stating the exact opposite, that the Inuit used virtually every part of the animal whether for food or for other purposes(other hunter-gatherer tribes, such as pre-Contact Native Americans, did the same). Given that there are several problems with Stefansson's claims over his Bellevue Experiment, there is good reason to doubt anything he said.I mean his books are littered with inaccuracies such as a claim that the Australian Aborigines ate mostly or wholly meats and fats. Turns out that, once they wiped out the megafauna 40,000 years ago or so, they turned to large amounts of plant-matter for their diet.

He looks good because he is ripped from being on zero carb so you can see all his muscles. He did exactly the same training pre zero carb and he was fat, so your wrong there, it is diet.

I would like to know which tribe of Australian Aborigines ate mostly plant food. All my reading and personal experience points towards a huge reliance on animal foods eg kangaroo, wombat, whale, abolone, crabs, worms. I used to have a keen interest in survival and 'bush tucker' and found plant foods severely lacking (this was a few years ago before I cared about my diet) its a dry continent for most part with terrible soil and not much water except for a few green patches on the southern coasts.

[TylerDurden]

He looks good because he is ripped from being on zero carb so you can see all his muscles. He did exactly the same training pre zero carb and he was fat, so your wrong there, it is diet.

I would like to know which tribe of Australian Aborigines ate mostly plant food. All my reading and personal experience points towards a huge reliance on animal foods eg kangaroo, wombat, whale, abolone, crabs, worms. I used to have a keen interest in survival and 'bush tucker' and found plant foods severely lacking (this was a few years ago before I cared about my diet) its a dry continent for most part with terrible soil and not much water except for a few green patches on the southern coasts.

Well, I can only go by the online anthroplogical references to an Aboriginal diet which mostly mention plant-foods. They frequently refer to the Aborigines having to specially process some plant-foods for eating. I'll come up with the references this evening when I have the time.
I agree that zero-carb (usually though not always) leads to weight-loss and that eating carbs often adds weight but no diet can, of itself, make one truly fit - for that you need to  exercise.

[TylerDurden]

The problem I see with whole quoting, other than the fact that the original author might not want it quoted, is that it creates a culture on the board of trying to prove yourself ultimately right over everyone else. A much better atmosphere for personal growth imo is an open one where people talk about their experiences and things they've learned from others. Whether that is friends, books, television, radio interviews, or other forums. Once it gets to "well this study says this" or "this guy eats this and is healthy, so that means you're wrong" than it really takes a step down for me in terms of helping people come to their own healthy conclusions. Diet is a loaded topic and everyone wants to be right, but I learned on raw vegan forums that no matter how sure you are of something you shouldn't word it 100% strong because you might change your mind and even if you are correct your tone might make people not want to read your thoughts anyway. I for one would not like to see posts of mine on a forum like Charles' being quoted by people to try and make him look stupid or prove something he wrote wrong, even if I disagree with him or anyone else.

This is precisely what I'm afraid of. If you have people constantly posting posts from other forums, not only does this inhibit free speech as people become more wary of saying anything in case someone else hears of it and starts a time-wasting flame-war re right and wrong of a specific topic, but peoples' posts are, technically, copyright and should only be posted on other forums with the specific permission of the relevant poster. This is basic Nettiquette..

Other than this, there is no such thing as universal truth so aiming for it via cross-group discussion leads nowhere. It's better for people to post about the various topics in their separate diet-based forums and leave it at that. That way, others can freely view posts from any number of forums they want to look at, and, thereby, get different views that way, without the need for any violation.

And, besides, I would never dream of posting a topic about eating raw meat on a vegan(ie diametrically-opposed forum), as I would feel it was disrespectful, so I wouldn't want people doing the same sort of thing in reverse on a rawpalaeo forum. There is a hot topics subforum for those wishing to post controversial anti-rawpalaeo stuff which is fine as long as it doesn't cite original posts and cites journals/websites in a general sense.

[Satya]

The problem I see with whole quoting, other than the fact that the original author might not want it quoted, is that it creates a culture on the board of trying to prove yourself ultimately right over everyone else.

A link to the thread is probably best.  I mean, if I quote something Kyle says here on another forum - a forum to which he does not belong - then 1) I might be quoting him out of context, and 2) he has no way to defend himself short of joining.  That's the problem I see with it

Certainly we might all gain insight from reading the pemmican thread on Charles' forum (a forum I have no desire to join just now).   Nicola, you post some very good links to articles from which I have personally benefited, and I'd like to thank you for that.  Quoting article excerpts with a link to the original piece is usually okay, but the copyright notice of each website should be read first.  Beyond Veg allows no reproduction, and they have the copyright, so it is potentially a dodgy thing to quote content from other websites, whereas a link is always safe (unless the site contains malicious executable content). 

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, it seems I was misled by various sites mentioning the "many plant foods" in the Australian Aboriginal diet. Other sources state that plants played  an "important but supplementary role " in the meat-dominated aboriginal diet:-

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FNRR%2FNRR11_01%2FS0954422498000043a.pdf&code=4dcdd41a4df10a8ed990e75cf703ee45

At any rate, it's not the near-zero-carb theme that Stefansson claimed re the aborigines.

[Satya]

He looks good because he is ripped from being on zero carb so you can see all his muscles. He did exactly the same training pre zero carb and he was fat, so your wrong there, it is diet.

Really?  Wow, if his training was the same and only his diet changed, then that's pretty convincing.  My son is totally big on limiting carbs now, as he wants to be ripped like all these zero carb people.  But he is still growing and does eat some carbs.  Those photos on Charles' running journal tell a story.  Now some of you buff raw zero carbers need to show us your stuff! 

[Satya]

Here's a big, grainy pic of Charles about half-way down this page:

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1232&pid=38217#pid38217

[wodgina]

Not bad for a guy pushing 41 years. He is 143 pounds. 5'8.

At I think 20 grams a day carbs he was 168 pounds and slightly chubby.

He goes to the gym x2 a week for less than 45 min at a time
Runs twice a week,  intervals one day around 14 miles straight on the other. Hardly a huge amount of excercise.

[wodgina]

Hmm, it seems I was misled by various sites mentioning the "many plant foods" in the Australian Aboriginal diet. Other sources state that plants played  an "important but supplementary role " in the meat-dominated aboriginal diet:-

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FNRR%2FNRR11_01%2FS0954422498000043a.pdf&code=4dcdd41a4df10a8ed990e75cf703ee45

At any rate, it's not the near-zero-carb theme that Stefansson claimed re the aborigines.

The aborigines that lived where I live would of been very close to zero carb as I have never found anything edible that was starchy or sweet just mainly watery tasteless plant bits which you would starve on very quickly.
We just dont get nuts and berries which you get in the northern hemisphere. The land is old and the soil has very low levels of minerials/humus and we have sporadic rainfall.