And That's why grains aren't your friend!

[OnyxPoet]

So, my whole life i have been able to ingest grains or high amounts of sugar/carbs yada yada. However, as many of you know i started a no grain/no or incredibly small amount (20g or less) carb, high fat/protein diet. I started it about a week ago, i felt changes, some were painful but overall my body did feel more regular.

Today, i had a relapse and ended up getting a pizza from Little Caesars with my wife. We ate it and it tasted so good but oddly enough ... after the Very first slice i started to feel bloated and full. It was the weirdest thing in the world, as i could eat a whole pizza to myself only a week ago.

However, like a drug addict, i continued to eat it and uhh ... yeah. My stomach is killing me, i feel like crap because I am pretty good at paying attention to my body. I have anal leakage from the mucous being created in my body thats trying to push the grains out of me. And i have had gas and been burping all day. That was 5 hours ago.

Let me also mention that i bought a soda with the meal, it has high fructose corn syrup in it ... Ladies and gentleman thats ALSO a grain lol. Not to mention the high sugar content ... and everytime i take a sip of it, including 5 minutes ago ( i need to throw it away because i keep forgetting and sipping ) I immediately bloat and begin to feel like crap.

So there you have it ... relapse is bad. Dead animal is good, not too dead of course. I will take this as encouragement to get back on my diet and Not ever do that painful experience again lol. Thanks for listening all , farewell for now.

[goodsamaritan]

You will get over it.
Sometimes learning your lesson requires experiencing pain.

[djr_81]

You will get over it.
Sometimes learning your lesson requires experiencing pain.

Ain't it the truth.

[OnyxPoet]

lol indeed indeed. Pain is my friend in this case, as it's incredibly large, violently pimpish Backhand lets me know the real deal lol. So hopefully, if i can allow logic to fuel me and overcome irrational, emotional motivation ... I won't very well end up doing That again lol.

[OnyxPoet]

A side note, i just read a forum that was referenced to me here, and there is a woman there who buys and immediately consumes raw grain-fed ground beef. Yet i heard ground beef was dangerous if you dont grind it yourself and she doesn't even freeze the stuff first lol. At what point is the need for caution exaggerated and at what point is it accurately verified? I mean it would help me loads if i were able to eat it ground considering the fats are easier to chew and its cheap as hell. And Since mah tough guy advisor, Savage, eats grain fed ground beef it encouraged me to do it also.

The only reason i ask this is because Freezing meats takes time, and i dont want to have to wait for my first bit of meat. I plan to freeze eventually to store in bulk but i want to eat the first batch as soon as i get it home.

So instead of buying ground beef, and then freezing it right away, i'd love to just be able to pick the stuff up and suck it down. But with the way westerners pwn the meat before we get it i'm sure i can jump straight into it without having to freeze it. I am so psyched honestly either way, Tomorrow I try my first Raw flesh! IT WILL BE A DAY OF RECKONING FOR ALL!!! ( Not really, just for me, but I'm Still PSYCHED!!!)

[KD]

you gotta understand there is no manual to this stuff, people will do what they want to do, and people do disagree on what is healthiest. some people see freezing as a detriment and most that actually consume raw meat regularly (and not WAPF deciples) don't see any value in terms of killing any nasties but just in keeping food longer or they happen to buy the food frozen so its unavoidable.

I don't think anyone promotes grain-feed, they are just doing the best they can. I don't think there are really any sophisticated methods of inspecting meat against the types of things you are talking about in America or elsewhere which is why the CW is still to cook meat thoroughly. For some its a toss up between being all raw or not. It may very well be more dangerous (in terms of parasites and so forth) to consume a mix of poor quality meats and cooked foods than it is to consume them 100% raw and in less than ideal formats, so that might be something to be considered.  If you think freezing is helpful in assuaging any concerns, you might do better being more patient with that first meal, afterall how long does freezing meat take?

[djr_81]

A side note, i just read a forum that was referenced to me here, and there is a woman there who buys and immediately consumes raw grain-fed ground beef. Yet i heard ground beef was dangerous if you dont grind it yourself and she doesn't even freeze the stuff first lol. At what point is the need for caution exaggerated and at what point is it accurately verified? I mean it would help me loads if i were able to eat it ground considering the fats are easier to chew and its cheap as hell. And Since mah tough guy advisor, Savage, eats grain fed ground beef it encouraged me to do it also.

The only reason i ask this is because Freezing meats takes time, and i dont want to have to wait for my first bit of meat. I plan to freeze eventually to store in bulk but i want to eat the first batch as soon as i get it home.

So instead of buying ground beef, and then freezing it right away, i'd love to just be able to pick the stuff up and suck it down. But with the way westerners pwn the meat before we get it i'm sure i can jump straight into it without having to freeze it. I am so psyched honestly either way, Tomorrow I try my first Raw flesh! IT WILL BE A DAY OF RECKONING FOR ALL!!! ( Not really, just for me, but I'm Still PSYCHED!!!)

I was the one who brought up the higher dangers with ground grain-finished meat. You should do a bit of research on feedlots and E.Coli-0157:H; that's the really nasty bugger you're trying to avoid.
A lot of beef raised in this country spends time in feedlots at the end of it's life and this exponentially raises the chance it will be in proximity to this strain of E.Coli. The added problem with commercially ground beef is if one animal is infected and ground up it's mixed with dozens  of animals and all of that ground meat could be contaminated.
If you want to go the ground beef route it doesn't take much more effort or time to have the butcher at the store grind up one of the cuts for you while you stand at the counter. This way it's fresher and it's the one animal lowering your risks greatly.

[OnyxPoet]

oh wow thats smart lol, Guess i didnt think of that. In that case i'll stay away from the grain fed ground, Unless frozen to kill the E.Coli. And instead just buy cuts and have them grind them for me and dig in to them. Also one thing that bothered me, i researched alot of organizations that sell grass fed free roaming organic chicken. The only problem is that since its a money making business, the term organic or roam free or grass fed can be used incredibly loosely.

For example, cage free, organic chickens are often still confined in houses, crazy tight together so as to better spread diseases, and have their beaks mutilated so as to cut back on the fighting. They stand in their feces all day and i would consider it even more dangerous than traditional, overly antibiotic methods.
I've also seen grass fed, organic farms that have the cows still crazy tight together, standing in their feces, but with grass in the buckets that are in front of them.

Either way, unless i go to the farm and see it myself it probably wont be what it says it is. And if many people on this forum, who don't have access to the farms, buy this organic grass fed beef; It seems like they have basically been eating the same thing i would eat if it was grain fed in terms of bacterial exposure.

Loose terms in industry make massive amounts of money in the way of trickery and phrase abuse. Unless i take perfect measures ... who knows whats kosher and whats not? Ultimately, since i am still rather scared of E.Coli, I'll just freeze my meat first. Then it doesn't really matter so much where i get it from as long as within the standard, and i can eat it raw without concern.

Again, you know, Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of Good. If freezing is not perfect, that doesn't mean it wont be a gigantic step up from cooking eh? So i'll give it a shot, and see where i stand from there .

[OnyxPoet]

In Response to KD, Its nice to know that there isn't really a perfect way to go about this. Bottom line is to do what i can and retain caution as a significant factor in my choices. With grain fed ground, freezing may cause the need for patience but i guess i wouldn't have to freeze it for long to pwn the potential E.Coli. So i will take your heed and be patient.

Edit: Oh, Damn it ... -_- "E.coli 0157:H7 At a Glance

The bacteria E.coli 0157:H7, also known just as 0157, is a rare but dangerous type of E.coli. It lives in the intestinal tracts of mammals and man. Some cattle carry the bacteria. It can be transferred from animal to animal, animal to man, from animal to man on food and from person to person through close contact or food.

NOTE: 0157 can survive refrigeration and freezer storage. If present, it can multiply slowly even at 44 F. Thorough cooking to 160 F is the best safeguard against infection."

[KD]

Yeah, its important to keep in my that one can't be perfect but also that there are some concerns (like djr mentions with feedlots) that do take precedence over others. The kind of reverse (its all the same) mentality can be more dangerous. For example, many people order their grass-fed beef frozen, if it was just an issue of freezing the meat they would just buy grain-fed frozen meats or freeze them. Part of this is nutritional, part is safety.

its true that people can stretch terminology and that grass-fed doesn't mean necessarily grass-finished and so forth but you still have that all or nothing mentality going on.

largely - rightly or wrongly for your health decisions - raw eaters are going to be less concerned with bacteria and parasites (which will be present) from grass-fed or wild animals than the effects of hormones, antibiotics and poor feed or treatment.

just to clarify what I said above. I was talking eating an all raw diet vs. mixing cooked and raw in the diet, not in a meal. Its is thought that in these situations parasites especially can reek more damage where they might be otherwise harmless, which is why choosing 100% meat that is poor quality, has been ground etc..might in the end be less risky or not risky for them. Which is exactly why you need to choose the things that have the highest level of safety for your circumstances, not others.

[miles]

About getting your butcher to grind your meat... My experience is not good. There are some chemicals used, for cleaning and for preservation, which seem to become less harmful upon cooking which some butchers use. It seems that they may clean the grinding machine with these chemicals, but then not rinse it properly(I guess because it's 'hard'(er) to rinse it, compared to knives etc). If you eat meat raw which has these chemicals on/in it, it will taste horrible and give you a headache. If a butcher is bad, all his surfaces and knives etc will have these chemicals in. Supermarket packaged mince will usually have the preservative in. The disinfectant type chemical will also give you a sore throat... However is the butcher is good, you may avoid all these problems I've mentioned.

[OnyxPoet]

Hm, interesting about the butchers. In which case if i am already paying for the cut i guess i dont see why it needs to be ground. Thanks for that info.

However, in response to the mixed raw/cooked meat. I understand bacteria feeds on dead tissue, so putting dead tissue as well as a large amount of bacteria that feed on it, in your bodies, you would give them too much nutrition and they can become hazardous. However, if i was able to Blue Rare the meat at at least 160 Degrees, Not that i know what this is on my stove top setting lol, Then i wouldn't be giving them nearly enough dead tissue to survive on, and yet i would still kill the E-coli just in case i ended up with an infected piece.

I envy the bravery on this forum lol, truly I do. But i suppose blue raring it would still be Ok, since it doesnt leave much dead tissue and it would be better than Medium rare that leaves alot of dead tissue. Yet, also still killing the potential E-coli that could hard me. And i won't even ASK about Botulism which survives WITHOUT oxygen but dies when it Hits oxygen. I am already forcing myself through the fear, bad info on That strain would probably knock me out before i even get the chance to do it.

[OnyxPoet]

HAHA! Research has helped me! So! it seems raw fish does not have nearly the same amount of potentially lethal bacterial strains that land animals do! And i can get it frozen, though sadly they tend to take off the skin when its frozen.

But hell, raw fish is what the Inuit thrived on and if its a matter of getting high fat sources i can eat coconut meat.

Raw fish is NOT cheap here in Ohio, but at least the salmon is only 4 bucks a pound. Tilapia is 3 bucks a pound but not as beneficial as salmon but thats a whole nother bit of research. I mean still, its cheaper than grass fed beef. And shoot man, if i need to, i been meaning to relocate anyways so lol, I'll just freakin move to Massachusetts for cheap fish whenever the heck i want it!

Whenever I want grass fed beef i can buy it, but sparingly. Ha, i'm not scared of Fish! Woo. Wild caught salmon, wild caught fish in general. Frozen sure, but raw? Hell yeah.

[KD]

$4 must be getting farmed salmon, I don't want to dissuade you from anything but you are missing the main problematic components....I would see fish that has been frozen or from farms as way more dangerous eaten raw than any other fish from a wild source.

That said the salmon I had tonight had massive worms in it....

local fish in NE is unfortunately still really expensive unless it is on sale. The tastiest fattiest fish tend also to be most expensive, nothing wrong with tilapia if you dig the taste.

[OnyxPoet]

ugh ... sigh ... even if it says Wild caught Salmon you are saying its farmed? Gah ... I'm losing it here! I KNOW why grains are bad and sugars because ALL cancer causing cells feed on Sugar, and yeast bacteria can cause serious problems. I know this or believe its correct info so fat and protein is the way to go above all. But with the high temps required in cooking, hell, it destorys the meat.

Let me be honest here, I think the main problem with America's health and other poor countries was the advent of Grains as a main food source. Not to mention the vegetable fiber that we cant digest, saying it make syou "regular" when all it does is Forces your body to creat emuscous and kick it out Bouncer style because it cant do anything with it.

Animals can digest celluose/fiber, we cant. Bacteria can digest grains and dead tissue, we can't. Raw or at least minimally cooked seems the way to go. So, fuck ground beef i'll get cuts and sear the outsides my damn self so i can kill any bacteria and have peace of mind. And with fish, now with you telling me yours had worms in it, i dont know man ... maybe i am complicating it. Grain fed sucks compared to even Grass Finished, but i can afford grain and so i will buy cuts and sear their outsides and then dine on them.

I hope this will not give any bacteria too much dead tissue to feed on and sure it will make me a Non raw paleo eater which might mean i wont be quite as welcome on this forum but as you said there is no manual and damn lol, I dont know what else to do.

[KD]

ugh ... sigh ... even if it says Wild caught Salmon you are saying its farmed?

no.

 I just find it  hard to believe. I may be more gullible than most, but I usually trust my labeling to the level that I understand its good for. So if some fish is labeled fresh/wild /never frozen, next to one that says wild or farmed/previously frozen or something. I usually don't really question it.

I guess I don't really hang out in many inexpensive markets to know how low prices might get so just forget that part. In the past in Asian markets they sometimes have extremely low prices, and although most fish is farmed in old oil tanks and things some is indeed wild and still cheap

--
I can relate to being a perfectionist, but the odds are you arn't going to figure out your entire future health plan in one night on the internet. It sounds like you know what your best plan of action is, which if I may intepret is probably to begin eating all your meats seared, finding sources for healthier meats (hopefully grass-fed) and experimenting with eating meals here and there raw (bought fresh or frozen), and cleaning up whatever other loose ends to your diet. There are also in between options such as lemon juice marinades for seafoods and drying meats at low temps. Grass finished means all grass as opposed to grass-fed which can mean either that or grain-finished in some cases. All this other stuff just seems very confused, or at least confusing to me.

[OnyxPoet]

ok, well i mean ... the Wild Caught, frozen salmon is in a bag in the freezer section of wal mart. There are alot of the same companies bags that dont say wild caught though so I think there is at least Some main distinction. Either way though, i'm interested in these other methods of preparation. I don't eat raw veggies for fear of E.coli from soil its been in.

My main thing is that i dont know what it feels like to get all my vitamins, which is what this is about right? I mean when you eat meat correctly and dont pwn it with high cooking temperatures or just plain eat it Raw instead, you keep the nutritional value intact. Meaning, vitamins, enzymes, or other healthy things. But since my goal is not so much to honor a particular lifestyle, but rather just be healthy i have a Very honest question to ask that i hope for unbiased responses to, and will ultimately decide this whole thing for me.

If i was to eat cooked food ( i fear botulism still which needs about 210 degress F for 25 minutes to kill, and lives In the meat and not outside of it.) then i would obviously lose out on alot of the nutrients and basically be mal-nourished. However, There are huge friggin body builders that eat cooked meats constantly, so the protein is obviously still usable to a certain degree, but i dont have enough science to understand that.

So lets say i Don't get enough protein or vitamins or enzymes from cooked foods, lets say they basically Suck. Here is my question, if i were to, in an obviously non pure paleo way, Take Supplemental vitamins that were professionally extracted from raw food source ( not those Crappy USP totally artificial things toted by the FDA ) and ready for digestion.
Then if i took raw cod liver oil for omega 3 fatty acids, DHA, ALA, and EPA which, remember, you buy these things monthly for way cheaper than an entire diet based on grass fed beef would be and they are actually not that expensive depending on where you go.
Then if i take well gained, trustworthy sources of probiotics to sort of mimic the good bacteria mentality of high meat.
Then, most importantly, if i took a good source of liquid Amino Acids/ Enzymes everyday to supplement for the ones i was losing by cooking, not overcooking which produces carcinogens, the meat. Then stayed away from sugars/grains and large amounts of carbs ...

Would i rule out the need for a raw meat diet? I realize this may be a controversial question for this forum, though i truly hope it wont be viewed negatively because this seems the best place to ask it as well. But if i were to do all the above mentioned things i can Speculate i would get the same things ... but I ask because honestly i have been studying this now no less than 11 hours a day for about 3 days and still can't get all these answers without bias involved.

[ys]

But if i were to do all the above mentioned things i can Speculate i would get the same things ... but I ask because honestly i have been studying this now no less than 11 hours a day for about 3 days and still can't get all these answers without bias involved.

in my opinion this is the worst approach ever.  this is not math test you are studying for.  you do not study this, period.  if you read this forum you would know that the same foods affect everyone differently.  there is very little consensus regarding details.

if i were you i would try different things for myself, keep what's working, and discard what's not working.  there is no other way.  like i said you can't study this.  your own personal experience will give you all the answers you need, not anyone else.

[OnyxPoet]

A truly honest, well put, bite the throat reply, and i mean that in a good way completely. I guess its right when you say you cant really study for this. YOu can nab valuable pieces of information and you can figure out quite a bit about the way things work ... but the best place to start when it comes to health is my own body.

So i'll start by trying things, and paying close attention to the responses. Certain guidelines I already understand will help but yeah, I see no flaw in your reasoning. Looks like my journey is not as simplistic as I thought but i'll figure it out. And i appreciate that advice.

[OnyxPoet]

Following your advice, i just tried some dairy i normally eat, it was cheese, and when it hit my body it felt heavy and slightly unwelcome. I also tried some milk, guess what ... it didnt feel good when it hit my stomach. Also, even though i have been eating dairy my whole life, as a young boy i was Lactose intolerant. With close attention paid, it seems i may still be. Now that my body is more sensitive to what it wants and doesnt want as a result of zero carbing before my plunge today its easier to pay attention to. So there, no more dairy sources for me.

I also noticed the overcooked chicken i made tonight, before trying raw tomorrow and just getting over my fear of botulism, was unappealing and felt dead in my stomach. I am learning ... what SHOULD be basic things about myself. I will continue and eventually i hope to find a mealplan and lifestyle that fits me. I'll see how i take raw meat as well, if it is indeed enzyme rich nature should take its course and it should have little to no impact on my digestive system.

However, i did eat Raw eggs 2 days ago and though i felt pretty good, i was not hungry all day long and slightly bloaty. Was this because of the probiotics i took? Or am i simply not so good with eggs? One thing i have always felt amazing with is medium rare meats. I think thats a good indication that raw or close to raw might be good for me. My body hates fiber ( which is undigestable) and i feel full and bloaty when i eat non hydrogenated oil peanut butter.

I feel better when i eat, or Ate in the past, refined grains then when i ate whole wheat high fiber grains, i think this is because you cant digest insoluable fiber and refined grains have little to none. I still dont feel good with grains, just noting a difference there. SO there, i am paying attention, and it looks like in the end i may end up being a raw meat enthusiast!

Considering my natural instinct to drool over raw animal and/or raw meat as gross as it sounds, and rapid desire i've had even as a child to tear into the flesh ... it seems raw might be for me. So i'll give it a try, and see how I feel . All is not lost just yet ^_^.

[King Salmon]

Wow,what an adventure this thread is! For me, meal planning was just starting with some stuff I ate as a raw-vegan and then just "tweeking" here and there.Once I added raw animal products,I just tweeked some more.It's an on-going process, and has to do with where you live and what is available and to some extent how much you're willing to pay to get it.
For me,I like things simple:
      1. Raw eggs(whole:yolk&whites) in a blender with bananas.Bang!
      2.Wild salmon/scallops/tuna(bought frozen) with lemon/lime juice.Bang!
      3.Raw organic pistachios with organic raisins(I mix 'em together)Bang!
     4.currently searching for a good land animal source to add.
options: sometimes I'll eat a bowl of pineapple,or I'll add avocado slices to my seafood dish.

As you can see,this can be simple.The land animal thing for me seems like the biggest pain though.For example at Whole Foods(in my area) they sell grass-fed grain-finished ONLY.So,I gotta search for sources elsewhere and it's not easy/convenient.I feel great without it so far though.Good luck to all of you and your "experiments".
   

[djr_81]

i fear botulism still which needs about 210 degress F for 25 minutes to kill, and lives In the meat and not outside of it.

Botulism is an anaerobic bacteria. It needs a truly oxygen deprived environment to grow which it's not going to get from a regular cut of meat in store packaging. If you're eating fresh beef the only bacteria you should be concerned with is E.Coli. If it makes you feel better just sear the outside of a cut of meat and you're not going to give yourself E.Coli (think about news stories on E.Coli outbreaks; it's always the ground meat where people get it).

Give things a shot Onyx. We all started out with concerns about pathogens and took different approaches to get over the fear. Eat the seared meat long enough and you may find you crave your meat further and further raw while your fears diminish.

[OnyxPoet]

Thanks for the encouragement , I'm sitting here right now with mah dogs hanging out with me. I was supposed to go to the market while my Wife was at work to search for meat but uh lol, I am the kinda guy who gets tired when the sunrises and is wide awake when the moons up heh . SO, that didn't end up happening.

I find after yesterday i have a huge anger and fear towards grains, much like i did botulism until you gave me that slight encouragement. So i'm here in the house and we haven't shopped yet so there is literally nothing to eat. Then it doesn't help that my body doesn't seem ( SEEM, I'm not an expert at this yet ) to like Dairy so i cant have cheese and all the pans are dirty and we have no sponges right now so i can't make eggs.

I can't swallow them Whole just yet, they are too big and i have a HORRIBLE fear of choking that i've had my whole life. But when i Beat them, someone told me it STILL kills the egg. So even though i would Love to eat them raw i might need to wait until i can buy some small or medium eggs for the purpose of swallowing them whole. All the meat we have is frozen, all the pantry has is stupidly annoying cereals we havent remembered to throw away. Oatmeal and black beans.

So yeah ... for at least 7 hours, I'm gonna be kinda screwed it seems lol. I'll call this a Fasting day i guess rofl. Let my body uhhh ... get a rest or something. Only places nearby are places with cooked foods, but damn I'm kinda desperate right now but everything has grains. Even my used to be, beloved and extra fatty low grade taco bell ... Oh, those were the days rofl!

Either way, guess i can go without food for a short time lol. I'll let YOU guys take my mind off it .

[ys]

you re making it way too complicated.

read Lex Rooker journal and note his attitude. make it simple, do not create enemies out of food and do not get emotionally attached to it.  otherwise all these emotions will consume you.

[djr_81]

I can't swallow them Whole just yet, they are too big and i have a HORRIBLE fear of choking that i've had my whole life. But when i Beat them, someone told me it STILL kills the egg. So even though i would Love to eat them raw i might need to wait until i can buy some small or medium eggs for the purpose of swallowing them whole. All the meat we have is frozen, all the pantry has is stupidly annoying cereals we havent remembered to throw away. Oatmeal and black beans.

I shouldn't have to do this, and my apologies if I'm just reading this wrong, but you're not under the assumption you're literally eating the whole egg including shell, right?
There's very little chance of choking on the yolk/white (you'd have to try and breathe while swallowing it really).

you re making it way too complicated.

read Lex Rooker journal and note his attitude. make it simple, do not create enemies out of food and do not get emotionally attached to it.  otherwise all these emotions will consume you.

Great advice. Lex's journal is without a doubt the most useful read here on the forum due to his emotional detachment from the food.