Phil: I didn't say "regularly".I noticed that Actionhero uses it on occasion.
As I mentioned, if it's not a regular food then it could be regarded as an occasional cheat, but that would not make it zero carb--it would be an acknowledged cheat.
would be a Also,I was trying to refer to sweeteners in a general sense.I asked: "honey or some other sweetener"?
The answer to that is no, sweeteners in a general sense are not generally regarded as truly "ZC" by anyone other than folks trying to justify their habits. Even zero-carb sweeteners have been found to spike insulin (Charles of ZIOH has actually written about that, and studies have demonstrated this). The most common hypothesis for why is that the super-sweet taste tricks the body into thinking it is ingesting sugar, so the body generates insulin to offset the perceived sugar. Artificial sweeteners are likely unhealthy in other ways and I would personally eat raw honey before I'd eat artificial sweeteners, but to each his/her own. Inclusion of sweeteners of any sort could be regarded as cheats/exceptions/compromises, but I don't see any of them as truly ZC in the spirit of what doing ZC is supposed to be about.
If ZC is to be of any value it needs to provide some benefit and have some rationale for how it works. Most of the rationales that I have seen for why it works include reducing insulin spikes and body fat, which artificial sweeteners allegedly do not do (reports indicate they do the opposite in both cases).
On Charles' site they use all kinds of stuff:splenda,milk,cream,BBQ sauce....whatever.It doesn't matter what Charles' definitions are.
Correct--at least not to me it doesn't, and apparently not you. I congratulate you on not drinking the ZIOH cool aid.
(Not that I have a personal beef of any sort with Charlies or that forum--I learned some good stuff there and first encountered Lex Rooker there, which was a major boon for me--we just have different views on some things.) I see Charles' claim that milk is ZC as an excuse to eat it, not something grounded in fact or supported by evidence.
So, to summarize, if you want to consume sugars, artificial sweeteners, or milk, go ahead, but you aren't likely to convince me that they fit the alleged purposes of most ZC diets, except possibly as cheats for those who are able to stick to diets better by cheating. However--friendly warning--my experience has been that the people that most need cheats and seek others' OK's for doing so tend to be the most highly addicted and the least likely to stick with it--no offense intended.
I'm talking about what the members actually eat.Haven't you seen the recipes in there???
It sounds like you're talking about the recent bizarre experiments of Charles and others who followed him off the deep end into things like ice cream, yes? Like I said, I don't consider Charles' making and eating of ice cream to be evidence that it's ZC, nor anyone else's following him into that experiment. As I recall, even he admitted it was a cheat, not truly ZC even under his new loose definition. I don't understand how he equates an all-animal-foods-diet that includes milk with ZC, but I can guess why. For one thing, it would be a pain to have to change his URL and Web documents to replace ZIOH and ZC with All Animal Foods (AAF) or something. Plus, AAF isn't as catchy as ZC.
As far as classifications,there might as well be ones for cooked-ZC, raw-ZC,and part-time raw-ZC. Since this is a raw site then obviously the ones who cook would go to Charles' site.
Correct--as well as the Dirty Carnivore site--and that's what folks tend to do. The owner of the DC site (Satya) is a former member of this forum. There's some good info at both forums, though I prefer the latter because it's less dogmatic, more-evidence-based approach is closer to mine.
Also,you could have lacto-raw-ZC,or lacto-part-time-raw-ZC 
Heh, heh. At the risk of pissing Tyler off, I think that sort of factionalism and obsession with detail is a wee bit more characteristic of vegan/vegetarian/fruitarian forums than ZC forums, though a faction did split off of ZIOH and it is possible there could be more schisms in the future.
I know salt is not a carb.I just mean that it seems the body needs something else other than only meat in a some/maybe a lot of cases(such as dairy,sweetener,and/or salt).
Yeah, but you're mixing together disparate things and "it seems the body needs something else" is not a good reason to eat something. I think there is a case for salt intake if not enough salt sources like animal blood are consumed, but the case for salt does not justify dairy or sweetener. To me raw dairy only makes sense as a staple if one is not intolerant and animal body fats are not feasible, and then just the fat and possibly fermented milk. Sweetener only makes sense as one reason for some to eat some whole raw fruit or honeycomb, but never as a processed additive. But to each his own.
So what is the real main reason people eat dairy, sweeteners and salt? Because when combined and processed in certain ways, such as to make ice cream, they taste very good and are very addictive and they are some of the hardest foods to give up. Diet forums are littered with people who either refuse to consider trying to give them up for a time (and they often literally say "I refuse to give up ____") or fail at trying to eliminate them, especially...
> sweet or carby ingredients and foods like sugar, soda pop, marshmallow fluff, frosting, pudding, refined glutinous wheat, honey, artificial sweeteners, fruits (especially fruit candies, drinks, juices, jellies, jams, dried fruits and sugary fruits)
> fatty foods (especially processed fats) like hydrogenated oils, dairy products, fatty corn-fed meats, corn-dogs, peanut butter, pemmican, and bacon
> salty foods like chips and salted nuts
> foods that produce opioids and opioid-like molecules, such as the gluten-rich grains (wheat, rye and barley), gluten-like grains (oats), and milk
> cooked, refined or otherwise processed foods and ingredients
When you combine three or more of these five elements into a single processed food product, you get a formula for addiction (ex: pizza, candy bars, ice cream with candy mix-ins or toppings, granola bars, yogurt with granola or M&M candies, peanut butter and jelly or marshmallow fluff sandwich made with Wonder Bread, cookies, cakes, you get the idea). Just look at what kids' favorite foods are and what happens when they don't get them to see these addictions play out before you.
Even on healthy-diet forums like this one, the foods that people be most passionate about tend to have one or more of these characteristics, such as naturally sweet raw fruits, naturally sweet fruit juices, raw dairy products, raw fatty steaks, pemmican (not truly raw but eaten by some here), unheated honey, coconut cream mixed with unheated honey, etc. If you don't believe me, check the forum for arguments and see which foods people are arguing over. There's a lot more passion displayed for raw fruits, dairy and fatty meats than raw greens, broccoli and lean meats. That doesn't mean the latter are necessarily healthier, it just reveals some of the source of the passion.
For me,I'm getting to VLC at this point.Seafood,meat,eggs,celery,cucumber,tomato,macadamias.I want to try that for a while and see how I feel.
Good luck. Make sure you get enough fats for your individual needs and unless you're planning on eating a lot of wild, fatty fish, shellfish and seaweeds, I would also read up on and perhaps consider pasture-fed animal fats and organs, sea salt, and young greens (but I'm no expert and still have some symptoms that haven't completely resolved).
