Sleeping- Seasonal Nutrition and the "lights out" book

[pioneer]

I once read a book called "lights out", by TS Wiley and Bent Formby. It was all about sleep and melatonin. She stated that it is our innate desire to crave sugar in the summer while the fruit is in season as we simultaneously increase our insulin resistance  to store fat. The problem is with the invention of the lightbulb, humans are not going to sleep when it gets dark out so we always think its summer. Apparently we should be sleeping all through the night, even during those long 14-16 hour winter nights. Our bodies are conditioned to sleeping 7-8 hours or less like the length of darkness on summer night: so we always have insulin sensitivity and crave sugars because we think its summer. It seems like a far fetched theory to me but could be plausible. Sweetness however, is associated nutrition in nature. A prime example is sweet fruits provide many nutrients and vitamin c that prevent scurvy. Inuit and indigenous tribes that solely eat meat and no fruit get their vitamin c from adrenal glands (which happen to be the richest known source of vitamin c) and disperse individual portions to their tribe members. Also, raw meat in general contains vitamin C before cooking. C can also be found in stomach lining I think. I'm getting off topic, but does anyone think the sleep-crave theory has any validity?

heres the link to the book
http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Sleep-Sugar-Survival/dp/0671038680

Once again, Im gonna post a shawn croxton video. Love the guy, he speaks for the people and in search for the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeeAVkF_TeE

[kurite]

I don't believe in it. Humans have been using fire for quite sometime now. Sure its not as convenient as a light bulb but we could still easily roam in the dark with a torch.

[pioneer]

I don't believe in it. Humans have been using fire for quite sometime now. Sure its not as convenient as a light bulb but we could still easily roam in the dark with a torch.

I understand this but people underestimate the importance of sleep all the time. Im sure that this has huge relevance in our lives. Staying up till 2am is certainly not paleo. The thing I dont understand is how does anyone really know the recovery cycles? I mean is there any accurate ways of being certain we physiologically repair between 10pm and 2am, or psychologically repair between 2am and 6am?   

I am sure our natural sleep cycles is pretty much half the battle in health. It is the reason why bears hibernate in the winter. No one would say it doesnt matter if bears hybernate or not. I feel that it is the same with us.

I am skeptical about much of this theory but I will stand with the notion of sleeping with the moon and waking with the sun.

[kurite]

Unfortunately I think this may be one of those things that we will never know for sure. However I will say that even if I tried I would not be able to sleep 16 consecutive hours. Also bears don't hibernate for "repair" they do it so that they don't have to find food during the winter.

[pioneer]

I know that, but who knows how long the caveman on a raw diet could have slept. I dont think its bad staying up a little after dark but people who stay up all night and sleep during the day are doing it all wrong.

[kurite]

I dont think its bad staying up a little after dark but people who stay up all night and sleep during the day are doing it all wrong.

Couldn't agree more.

[pioneer]

yeah, I mean we all know about the indians and their after dark parties around the fire, but in general people didnt stay up too late.

[kurite]

Actually I just saw a history channel episode on this subject. It was called afraid of the dark. I don't know how to get a hold of a copy but it was very interesting.

[pioneer]

thanks I hope I can find it on youtube.

[Wolf]

Why is it then that I normally feel so much more tired during the daylight hours, especially if it is hot, than during the night?

I actually don't believe humans should be strictly diurnal or strictly nocturnal.  I live in a very hot desert-like climate, and sleeping during the hottest hours of the day while staying awake more during the cooler nights seems a lot better idea to me.  Extreme heat causes me to feel very sluggish and fatigued, as well as easily irritable at having to make the slightest movements.

During a time while I was unemployed and had for a time, given up on finding a new job because of the terrible economy, I would only sleep when my body told me I was tired enough to fall asleep.  I would wake up whenever I naturally woke, and not because I was woken by any alarms.  I would never try to sleep if I did not feel tired, no matter what time it was, nor would I ever set my alarm to wake me at any specific times.
During this time, I noticed that my sleeping schedule normally rotated.  There would be a few days where I would sleep during the day, and be awake all night, then a few days later I was sleeping for half the day, and half the night, then a few days later I was sleeping all the night and awake all day, then sleeping half the night and half the day, and so on.  Being that I spent most of this time inside an air-conditioned house, my sleep was mostly unaffected by temperature.  At times I did stay in an un-airconditioned house, which would sometimes reach temperatures of 90 degrees (F) I was far more inclined to sleep during the day, but since the house was my mother's and since she strictly believes in a diurnal sleeping schedule, she would often interrupt my day-sleep and tell me to go to bed at night.

I think that people should only sleep if their body feels the need to sleep, and only wake when people feel the need to wake, regardless of the position of the sun, rather than forcing themselves to sleep at night and forcing themselves awake in the mornings with alarm clocks.  However, this becomes nearly impossible when one has a schedule of work/school that they cannot be late for.

As far as staying up until 2am "not being paleo," how do you know when they slept and when they were awake?  I know they probably were more often awake during the day since that was when most prey-animals were also awake, so they would need to be awake during the day to hunt, but that doesn't mean they would necessarily be strictly diurnal.  But do you have any sources that show that cavemen were definitely diurnal?

[pioneer]

If you feel better staying up during the night, and sleeping during the day then by all means do what feels best. However science knows that melatonin secretes from the pineal gland(I think) as soon as darkness comes. There have even been cases where people cannot sleep because a switchlight is on in their room. Even if your eyes are closed, your brain knows whether or not there is even the smallest bit of light. Even the smallest light can disrupt melatonin. Melatonin is one of the most underlooked hormones and may even play more of a role in repair then testosterone. Melatonin works with testosterone and growth hormone to repair the body. It is known that nocturnal animals do not have the same melatonin type reaction we have. That heat exhaustion is likely your adrenal glands. Everyone exhausts their adrenals when the first hot days of summer come. In the first few 100+ degree summer days I am lethargic and usually sleep all day. However after about a week I adapt and am fine to be outside in the heat. You do make a point about the heat. I dont think paleo men were exercising outside in the summer much, but just lounging around, sleeping, and hunting. However, on the flipside, people who live in the winter would need to stay up during the day and sleep at night because its so cold.

To answer your question of feeling so tired during the day, it could be a factor in your insulin or adrenals. I used to have the same problem. Had mild adrenal exhaustion pumping out too much cortisol. If thats the case, try to destress yourself any way possible, dont exercise as much, get more sleep, and eat raw foods. The insulin and adrenals also relate to eachother, and if the blood sugar is too high (type 2) it could be making adrenals pump out cortisol because of the stress and lower testosterone in the process.

I lowered my bloodsugar when going on this diet by doing ketogenic and I never had as much energy during the day. My theory is that going low carb or ZC will produce the healthiest blood sugar level, thus making adrenals happy and insulin work properly.

Many people who tell me they are tired during the day I just tell them to cut out all the sugar and stimulants, esp caffeine. Almost immediately they feel better during the day. You want an average blood sugar level for sustained energy. Spiking insulin is a result of high blood sugar, then once the excess insulin lowers the blood sugar, the blood sugar is lower than before, hence the fatigue.

hope that helps a little. But, good point with the position of the earth one is on can impact sleep cycles.

[Wolf]

Hm, I had never heard about Melatonin and stuff, very interesting.. I can usually just as easily fall asleep with the light on as off, and I know a lot of times I'll start to feel sleepy once the sun starts to shine in through my windows.. but maybe I just have messed up Melatonin or glands or something, lol.  My sleeping schedule has never been very regular except for when I was in school, and then I always had the most horrible times trying to wake up in the mornings no matter how early I went to bed the night before.  You ever get that feeling right after you wake up and you try to grip onto something, like a cap to twist it off, and it just feels like you hand is useless and can't do it?  That was pretty much how my entire body felt every single morning.  Not fun. 
Ever since getting out of school and not being forced on such a rigorous sleeping schedule though, I actually haven't felt that way in years.

as far as trying to combat the fatigue, lol.. I hardly every feel stressed out, I rarely, if ever, exercise much more than a bit of walking around during work (bad, I know, but I'm extremely lazy), and I tend to sleep about 10 - 12 hours a day.. sometimes more.
I also rarely, if ever, eat any candies, cookies, ice creams, treats, chocolates, or sweets, I pretty much avoid anything sweet other than fresh fruit (my idea of the perfect dessert is a bowl full of strawberries, pineapple, blackberries, and kiwi.. yummy!) and sugary juices to drink (because I hate the taste of water, but when there's milk and fruit available I prefer to consume those for hydration than the bad for me sugar juices) and have mostly cut soda from my diet altogether (neither do I drink coffee). 

So, uh.. lol, I really don't know what causes so much of my fatigue, except that maybe I actually don't get enough exercise, and maybe my somewhat usual SAD diet was to blame.. I'm hoping that starting to eat most of my foods raw, will help with my fatigue, though.
Thank you for your advice, though.

[Wolf]

Also along with the whole sleep thing, I've noticed there were times where I could go into something I like to think of as "hibernation mode," where I would sleep for a few days straight, only waking up about every 10 - 12 hours to eat/drink something and use the bathroom, before going right back to sleep again for another 10 - 12 hours.  I've also used this "hibernation mode" during times that were low on food, as an alternative to fasting.  I've only done it for at most about 3 - 4 days before either there was food again, or there was something I needed to stay awake for (like work/school/family stuff/or even feeling guilty for sleeping too much) though I'm pretty sure I could have continued like that for at least a week, if not much longer.

I don't know if this is a bad thing, since it is pretty much controllable by me, or if any other human is capable of such a thing.. nor do I know if it really is a type of state of true hibernation, since I have no idea if hibernating creatures wake up every once in a while to eat or uh.. relieve themselves, or anything, or if I am in any sort of deeper/hibernation-type sleep than normal.  I have no idea, though I would think not.  But I don't know what it is that makes me capable of sleeping for days on end.

[miles]

When you talk about staying up all night and sleeping in the day, you're talking about in a house, where the temperature and lighting stay the same, where you know there's no predators hiding round the corner, where you know the way so you're not going to fall down a hole and die, where you can see your food in the fridge.

Also, you talk about being irritable in the heat etc, that's because your clothes stop your body from perspiring effectively, as well as insulating you unnecessarily... Paleo people would have no problem hunting in the day during the summer, because they weren't wearing clothes, nor would you be uncomfortable if you were not wearing clothes.. Sweat keeps the body from overheating.. it evaporates and takes the heat away with it.. if you wear a t-shirt, it can't evaporate and the heat stays with your body.. As well as, the t-shirt slows down the heat from leaving without the sweat too..

Sweat is one of the main adaptations that helped early human catch faster mammals(in hot climates...), whereas the other mammals have to stop to pant in order to cool-down, the human can keep running and cool-down as he goes. Some other adaptations were: Tight, long leg(calf & hamstring) tendons(to recycle energy, think springs), bipedalism(less energy wastage[less things to move and more consistent motion{like cycling} as opposed to the heave-glide{like rowing} motion], which means the other mammals tire themselves out sooner whereas the human can keep running over longer distances), possibly also the ability of the human to breath through their mouth while running.

[Wolf]

Hm, being inside a house might be a major factor of my sleeping schedule, however as far as being able to see, outside I can still see pretty much perfectly well on any clear night when the moon is out, and especially if the moon is full.. and I also don't put much stock in being able to see well anyways.. my natural eyes have terrible eyesight, and anything even armslength away is pretty blurry for me.  If I was just using my natural eyes, I'd be pretty much just as blind in full daylight as most humans would be in the dead of night with only a sliver of moon.  I wear contacts to see, though.

Also, you assume that during hot times I am also wearing clothes.. I actually prefer not to be wearing clothes, or wearing very little clothing, no matter if the temperature is cool or hot.  I think actually this has increased my intolerance to heat, because whereas before when I was normally always wearing clothes, I was used to being so heavily insulated even when it was very hot, and my body got used to it, so that when it became unbearably hot, removing some clothing was "extra" cooling.  Now that I am used to very little clothing, I am not used to so much heat anymore, and I also no longer have that "extra" sense of being cooled by being able to remove clothes.

also, perspiration only works effectively in dry climates.  When you're in a humid climate, the perspiration is not able to dry, therefore unable to cool you.  While I do live in a dry climate, the insides of houses still become humid, so during those hot days it's pretty much a choice of whether you want to be in 115ºF dry outside weather or 90Fº humid indoor weather.  You feel over-hot either way.

[pioneer]

my advice- move. Lol I dont know what else to say. If your body is fine with your current lifestyle then thats great, but if your always exhausted because of the extreme heat, is it really worth it ten years down the line to be in the same situation and regretting not moving. Also, most people I know get tired as soon as it gets dark. I am a waiter in a restaurant and as soon as the lights go dim, we all feel groggy and tired. However, once the manager turns the lights up again, we feel good again. IDK what your situation is though?

[Wolf]

I might move out of here someday, I don't know, but for now I don't have much of a choice.

And usually I actually feel quite a bit more invigorated by the moonlight and the cool night air than in sunlight and hot day air.  I work at a pizza place delivering pizza, so actually most of the time I'm out driving around in the sunlight, but my car also has no air conditioning so it's usually uncomfortably hot and I can't wait until the sun goes down and things cool off.

Another thing that makes me feel actually rather hyper and energetic is rainy weather.  i LOVE rainy weather!  it makes me just want to run all around outside and go crazy, lol.

[pioneer]

I might move out of here someday, I don't know, but for now I don't have much of a choice.

And usually I actually feel quite a bit more invigorated by the moonlight and the cool night air than in sunlight and hot day air.  I work at a pizza place delivering pizza, so actually most of the time I'm out driving around in the sunlight, but my car also has no air conditioning so it's usually uncomfortably hot and I can't wait until the sun goes down and things cool off.

Another thing that makes me feel actually rather hyper and energetic is rainy weather.  i LOVE rainy weather!  it makes me just want to run all around outside and go crazy, lol.

Haha, I absolutely love rainy weather, especially in the summer. I usually go outside and run and jump around in it. I also love being indoors when it rains and watch movies all day. I wish it rained every night and was sunny every day, that would be great. As for your feeling of invigoration at night, Id have to agree, I feel that as well, however for me I think it is the feeling of freedom after a days work.

[MoonStalkeR]

My sleep schedule is messed up and I experience insomnia. Sleeping is very tiring to me and I wake up feeling terrible. The rest of the day I feel terrible and weak like a zombie, but after about 7:00-9:00 PM I begin to feel slightly better and have more energy.

[Wolf]

My sleep schedule is messed up and I experience insomnia. Sleeping is very tiring to me and I wake up feeling terrible. The rest of the day I feel terrible and weak like a zombie, but after about 7:00-9:00 PM I begin to feel slightly better and have more energy.

That's sounds a lot like me, actually, except maybe not so bad and I don't really have insomnia.
I've been feeling rather more energized so far since starting raw, but it's only been about a day or two lol, so I don't know if it will last or go away or get better.

[pioneer]

you guys sound a lot like you may have adrenal exhaustion. I had that for a year and it was the worst time of my life. Getting on the RPD and making myself have a regular sleep schedule cured it completely. Diet should account for 80% of curing the issue if you eat Raw foods.

[tdister]

Adrenal fatigue...

I suppose I should be getting to bed.

[Cinna]

I would be in Wolf and Moonstalker's camp here... (Moonstalker - what an appropriate name.) I used to say that my sleep schedule was all messed up, but I don't anymore. I embrace it, it works for me, it's flexible. I am self-employed, usually work evenings, and function very well evenings. One of my very favorite things to do (I consider it a luxury) is to fall asleep when I want to sleep and not set an alarm - I like to wake up and get up when I'm ready to do so. I don't usually oversleep unless I'm compensating for previous lack of sleep, just need the extra rest, or I'm depressed.  I do set my alarm if I have to get up in a few hours and want to make sure I don't oversleep.

I'm just a night owl. Even as a child. I didn't want to sleep at night. It doesn't matter if I'm awake all day and exhausted in the evening, I just don't want to sleep before 2 am. I'll fight it.

Several years ago, my holistic practitioner muscle tested that my body did not produce melatonin. So she recommended that I take some around 6 pm so I can fall asleep at night... uh, I'm not sure why/if I saw her for that issue because I never bought the melatonin. I thought about it, but my nocturnal instinct was probably like, "Ah, you don't really want it."

Very generally, my "natural" schedule is to go to bed around 4 am - give or take four hours. I often go to bed at 6 am or 8 am. I get plenty of afternoon sunlight and I darken pretty easily, so I'm not lacking any sun (not in so cal!). In addition, my sleep schedule changes if I have to or choose to be awake earlier in the day. And sometimes I'm like on a 36-hour or 48-hour "day" schedule. But like Wolf, I feel relieved to avoid the hot daytime sun of Southern California. I shut out most of the daylight in my bedroom while sleeping and it just feels right for me to rest during this time of day.

I'm sure in paleo times there was the small majority who were nocturnal. Even just for safety - nightwatches. And just because today we would feel so uncomfortable/vulnerable/bored if we were to mill about in the dark nighttime without the modern conveniences of electric light or fire, paleo people had to be like a different breed. Even AV talks about the night vision he developed from living outdoors (WWTL pg. 119). Imagine the night vision we - er, I mean, paleo people had living in real darkness every night (except for moon and stars). Just as we have night workers today (bartenders, graveyard shift workers, bouncers, police officers, etc.), I can totally see the paleo night hunters - hunting in darkness, even without moonlight - supplementing the group's diet with nocturnal prey. Paleo people were a different breed. Imagine how heightened their other-than-visual senses were. And being in tune with their environment, directly connected to their source of sustenance (the supreme locavore), and just vibing with the earth. I'm sure it was rough, but survival is its own meditation.

So I don't believe that people who stay up all night and sleep during the day are doing it all wrong, but it's definitely not for everyone. I've read that a daily routine - and a diurnal one - contributes to health, youthfulness, well-being, etc., but I've adapted to my nocturnality instead of fighting it, so I don't think it has aged or worn me out. Wolf, Moonstalker, and I were probably the ones looking out for our diurnal paleo buddies while they slept - so no nocturnal sasquatch or giant cat snatched you up. And we got you fresh nocturnal meat to enjoy upon waking.

Oh and lastly, I think paleo sleep cycles were likely very different. I can function well with two 4-hour nap sessions spread out in 24 hours. In other words, I doubt that the majority of diurnal paleos tucked in at 10:00 pm and slept soundly (even on such a great RPD ) for six hours or so. Depending on the climate and environment (dangers, predatory animals, etc.), paleos probably napped 3 hours here, nighthunted a couple hours there, slept in a cool cave for 5 hours during extreme daytime temperatures here, etc. Just as the RPD frequency of eating and the amount eaten in one or a couple (maybe a few) sittings are so widely variant and different from the "3 square meals" or "5 smaller meals per day" of today's modern eating, I'm sure paleo sleep/rest/catnap - frequency and amount - was way different from modern sleeping today. The end.

[MoonStalkeR]

you guys sound a lot like you may have adrenal exhaustion. I had that for a year and it was the worst time of my life. Getting on the RPD and making myself have a regular sleep schedule cured it completely. Diet should account for 80% of curing the issue if you eat Raw foods.

I suspected it to be adrenal related.

(Moonstalker - what an appropriate name.)

lol 
Your theory sounds very interesting and makes sense. Night was definitely a time that would make it necessary for a number of people to stay awake in most climates. Also, humans are supposedly more active during the full moon because the extra light brings about hunting opportunities.
When my sleeping ability improves I will try to split my sleeping session.

[pioneer]

Adrenal fatigue...

I suppose I should be getting to bed.

Its not necessarily going to bed at night and waking up when its light out. The main thing is training your body to get into a circadian rythm (natural sleep cycle). If you can train yourself to go to bed and wake up at the same times every day, that'll be great for you. However, besides that, curing adrenal exhaustion for me was mostly accomplished through a raw diet with plenty of raw meat and fat.