The Ideal VLC Paleo Fruit?

[tehshyt]

Lately there have been three main sources of carbs for my diet.  I am interested in the opinions of those who subscribe to LC/VLC Paleo diets.

So, which is best, and WHY?

1. Watermelon

2. Berries

3. Tomato

[kurite]

Definately not tomato just because its a nightshade.

[goodsamaritan]

Coconuts

Raw nuts

Durian

[Haai]

I'm allergic to coconuts and every nut i've ever tried.

[King Salmon]

Tomato hands down.Who cares if it's a nightshade? oooo....a nightshade.Boogeyman is gonna get you  

The point is,since I'm RVLC,I would use the tomato because it still is enzymatically compatible with meats.It doesn't interfere with digesting meats similar to cucumbers or celery.

Watermelon is the worst.High like hell in sugar and you can't eat anything else with it.

[sabertooth]

coconut butter
 lemon water
   animals        
(primary sustenance)

If I eat berries , it seems to have an adverse effect on energy levels and overall well being

If I eat vegtables , it seems to interferer with meat digestion.

I can handle some watermelon on a really hot and sweaty day.
(on an empty stomach)

tomato's are neutral for me, so I rarely bother with them(hard to get good quality )

[cliff]

Watermelon is the worst.High like hell in sugar and you can't eat anything else with it.

Watermelon is one of the most low sugar sweet fruits, 7.6g carbs per 100g vs. tomatoes which are 3.5g/100g.  Watermelon taste a hundred times better then tomatoes so therefore watermelon wins

Just to give you an idea of how ridiculous your comment is, blueberries contain 14.5g carbs/100g, would you classify blueberries as being high like hell in sugar???

@op I would choose watermelon as this is the easiest fruit to get ripe, has pretty much the same or less sugar content then berries and watermelons are one of the best tasting fruits around.

[Paleo Donk]

Just to give you an idea of how ridiculous your comment is, blueberries contain 14.5g carbs/100g, would you classify blueberries as being high like hell in sugar???

I believe this to be an insult or at least thats how I would take it. As for your reasoning - Whenever I consume watermelon it is usually in much, much greater quantity (by weight) than blueberries and just as an educated guess since watermelon has a much higher percentage of it as water implying that its fibrous content is much lower than that of blueberries and so when eating equal amounts of sugar from both fruits my blood sugar is going to surge higher for watermelon than it is for blueberries. I would guess watermelon's glycemic index to be higher than blueberries and if you assume this to be a bad thing then eating watermelon is going to worse for the majority of the people here. I don't think many people ever eat by weight of fruit and instead eat by how they feel.  I mean with your logic, drinking a cup of water with added sugar less than 7.6% of the total should be better than watermelon. Why not do this and drop a vitamin C tab in it and just never eat fruit to begin with?

[cliff]

Sorry if the comment offended you paleo donk but its true, watermelon isn't high as hell in sugar(atleast compared to fruits that are).  If you don't tolerate watermelon I have a simple solution, don't eat it.  Glycemic index is flawed, its all about glycemic load.

Per 100g blueberries contain 84.2g of water and 14.5g sugar, watermelon is 91.4 and 7.6.  6 more grams of water isn't gonna make a huge difference(is it?)

No need to feel insulted.

By the way this comment,
Whenever I consume watermelon it is usually in much, much greater quantity (by weight) than blueberries
has no bearing on the sugar content of watermelon, I don't know why you would have to consume it in much greater quantities?


Why not do this and drop a vitamin C tab in it and just never eat fruit to begin with?

Because fruit is much more then just sugar, water, vitamin c??

[Paleo Donk]

By the way this comment,
Whenever I consume watermelon it is usually in much, much greater quantity (by weight) than blueberries
has no bearing on the sugar content of watermelon, I don't know why you would have to consume it in much greater quantities?

I am not arguing that watermelon is "low" in sugar. The point is that it does not necessarily matter what percentage of the food is sugar. I would easily wager that most people consume watermelon in much greater quantities than berries by weight and so of course this is going to have an enormous impact. Who eats by weight? Most of us eat by calories and satisfaction of hunger and so in the real world a greater amount of weight of watermelons is needed to satisfy hunger than that of berries. Looking at the glycemic index or load or whatever (you can't just dismiss something all together in fell swoop with a few words) by caloric content is going to be much worse for watermelon than berries.

As for the argument that 6g of water isn't going to make a difference -Look at the ratio of water to sugar its about 6:1 for blueberries and about 12:1 for watermelon, a substantial difference which is going to equate to more easily digested nutrition into the bloodstream for the watermelon which actually could be good for those who have bowel troubles with larger amounts of fiber.

As for being insulted. It is not your decision how I feel and has no bearing on what I believe. Feelings are just that, they exist regardless of whether or not the underlying thoughts that made a person feel that way are correct. I didn't personally feel insulted but I felt that the original wording you chose to attack the argument was intended as an insult or at least to make yourself look superior in some way. Perhaps this is wrong since this is the internet and I cannot readily gather all the pertinent information to make an informed decision but I am leaning towards insult.

[cliff]

A higher water to sugar ratio would be better, no?  I don't get what your trying to say

Most of us eat by calories and satisfaction of hunger

I would hope so, lets compare watermelon and blueberries by calories,

blueberries(393g) 200calories, 54g carbs

Watermelon(668g) 200 calories, 50.4g carbs. 

So you get to eat more watermelon, get less sugar and more nutrition.  If your eating by hunger watermelon seems like a better option?  Granted blueberries have a tiny bit more fiber but this may actually be a detriment like you stated.

As for your argument about glycemic index, glycemix index is just the measurement of how fast a carbohydrate source digest.  I dunno about you but fast digesting carbohydrates are what I'm looking for, I don't want food sticking around inside me and taking too long to digest.  The only time carbs should really come into play should be after a workout imo and the main goal for post workout nutrition is to get the most fast digesting carbs and proteins available for muscle recovery.

I don't get how my labeling of someones comment as ridiculous is an insult, especially when you look at in context of his post. 

FYI my post is my experience, if you can't tolerate watermelon then ignore my post?  The OP specifically asked about this fruit tho indicating he can tolerate it.  I'm not telling anyone they have to eat watermelon

[Paleo Donk]

A higher water to sugar ratio would be better, no?  I don't get what your trying to say

This again shows faulty logic and reasoning. Percentage of water or sugar or calories in a food does not necessarily mean anything. There is no yes or no answer here. If you think so, then again just dilute some sugar with water and drink for your easily digesting post workout carb meal.

So you get to eat more watermelon, get less sugar and more nutrition.  If your eating by hunger watermelon seems like a better option?

Again, poor reasoning and a poor question to pose. If watermelon is easily digested it makes it harder to control hunger for most which will likely cause watermelon to be overeaten in the real world. I don't know one indigenous tribe that eats watermelon but nearly all of them eat berries. This is getting way off topic to the OP and is just a pointless argument over nothing that actually matters.

[cliff]

If you think so, then again just dilute some sugar with water and drink for your easily digesting post workout carb meal.

You say I have faulty logic but keep referring back to this comment, as if sugar water equals watermelon.  So lets get down to the real debate, what makes blueberries better then watermelon?  You realize the water content of melon makes it one of the hardest fruit to over eat?? It would be much easier to over eat on berries seeing how you get the same amount of calories from half the weight.

If watermelon is easily digested it makes it harder to control hunger for most which will likely cause watermelon to be overeaten in the real world.

Who uses watermelon to control hunger?? 200 calories of berries will control hunger better then 200 calories of melon? Not imo.  If your interested in controlling hunger eat more fat

I don't know one indigenous tribe that eats watermelon but nearly all of them eat berries.

Watermelon is indigenous to south america, where humans evovled.  It was no doubt apart of the human diet at some point in the paleo era.  It was probably used as its used today in africa as a source of clean water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citron_melon

Kung eat cooked melon,
The melons and roots are more usually eaten cooked.
http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-3f.shtml

This is getting way off topic to the OP and is just a pointless argument over nothing that actually matters.

I agree, don't know why you initiated it and I still don't get your point.  Is there some mystery factor to watermelon that makes it more harmful then berries?

[Paleo Donk]

This will be my last thoughts since I've already wasted too much space and my posts are not really important but my instinct to fight is alive and so my debate goes on. I'm not sure exactly what I'm arguing but I do see some flaws in your argument.

Namely that watermelon is harder to overconsume than berries. Overconsume is not a well defined word to begin with so think of it however way you wish. I find that juice which is just fiberless fruit the easiest to consume and easiest to overconsume as I have in the past been able to drink a couple quarts of mango juice effortlessly. Even fresh squeezed juice is quite easy to overconsume. Watermelon is one of the closest fruits we have to juice. Even the name implies it so at just .4% fiber. Blueberries on the other hand have 6 times as much fiber as watermelon and its this fibrous mass that I believe allows us to consume the fruit at a more 'natural' level. I can haphazardly explain it as so - For the fruit's sake it probably wants us to eat as much as possible as long as its seeds get deposited with adequate human fertilizer and so perhaps its this fiber that is important for ejecting seeds properly.

I also have to question your line about water being satiating and thus making hard to overconsume fruits with lots of water. There is an experiment I read about thanks to Good Calories Bad Calories where they give rats some sucrose water as their only source of calories. The rats will continue to drink the water and sucrose solution all the way until it is diluted up to 98% water. Yes, they would be very bloated but the urge to get the correct caloric content is there and I would assume very similar to humans as there are plenty of fruitarians that eat enormous volumes of fruit every day with loads and loads of water.

Many of us here do use fruits to control hunger. Why else eat them? There is an urge to eat some carbohydrate and fruits seem like a natural raw choice. I would choose a fruit that satisfies my hunger best so in that sense the fruits we eat do control a certain part of our hunger.

Overall this makes it seem that berries are probably more worthwhile to consume. Though, and this is an important distinction - when one is attempting to heal the body, different foods can have a significant advantage over foods that a healthy body can process and is the reason so many vegetarians to the juice fasting bit as this does help temporarily regulate their digestive systems. And so watermelons can be far better than berries for some and like you said self-experimentation is key.

The fact that the Kung eat the melon cooked is not satisfying to me as this implies something not right with its raw state.

[Hannibal]

Blackberries are considered one of the most paleo fruits.

[King Salmon]

Cliff,no need to be a smartass.Your science doesn't impress me.
I was speaking from an enzymic and RVLC point of view.The tomato can be eaten together with meat if desired.Watermelon can't.It's that simple.The point is that in a 24hr period you wouldn't have eaten any enzymatically incompatible foods,so digestion would be optimal and remain RVLC.End of story.

Btw,I'm not trying to impress anyone,I'm just answering the OP's question.Feel free to provide your own answers,but it's not necessary or welcome to attack other people's answers.

[Sully]

Watermelons have been domesticated longer. Less purer genes? Not as close to wild ancestor maybe.
Watermelon originated in Africa, and are much smaller than the domesticated version. Blueberries are native to Canada I think. But still, domesticated blueberries are a bit different than wild ones.
 Here is a pic of wild raspberries vs domesticated ones. Yes they are different kinds of raspberries (one being black raspberries the other being red raspberries) but wild red raspberries are the same size of wild black raspberries generally. So the comparison still makes sense.

Pictures taken by myself.





I would suggest trying out some wild plant foods . It is fun to go out picking them!

[miles]

The point is,since I'm RVLC,I would use the tomato because it still is enzymatically compatible with meats.It doesn't interfere with digesting meats similar to cucumbers or celery.

Are you saying that cucumbers and celery digest the same as meat? If so, how do you figure that..?

[Michael]

Sully, they are some mothers of domesticated raspberries you have there!!  I've never managed to buy raspberries anywhere near that size which is maybe a good thing.  I would dearly love to be able to go picking wild raspberries but, despite much searching on my walks and travels, I've only found them once here in the UK!  But, I make do with wild blackberries which, as you've discovered with the raspberries, are quite delicious and from a different planet to the blackberries available in the shops.

Nice pics btw!

[Sully]

Michael

Nice, never had wild blackberries. I would like to try some wild blueberries.

I have had my share of wild plants though. Some I know are native to the USA some I don't know.
Some fruits I picked are wild turned domesticated, some fruits in people's yards are of course domesticated (which I usually stay away from).


THESE ARE PICTURES I HAVE TAKEN,  OF FROM WHAT I KNOW TO BE 100% WILD & MAYBE NATIVE TO WISCONSIN TOO
CHOKE CHERRIES

BLACK RASPBERRIES

BLACK WALNUT

WILD GRAPE: HMMMM I READ THERE ARE NATIVE GRAPES i FIND THESE EVERYWHERE, ESPECIALLY BY RIVERS


There is a tiny red plum which may be native to Wisconsin that I find. It is indeed tiny. About the size of those large marbles. I will post a pic when they ripen.

PICTURES I TAKEN FROM WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE 100% DOMESTICATED NON-NATIVE FRUITS THAT I FIND IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD
(ALTHOUGH STILL BETTER THAN STORE BOUGHT)
GOLDEN PLUM?: GETS A RICH YELLOW/GOLD WHEN FULLY RIPE



UMMM, KINDA.....SHIT I FORGOT THE NAME, SOME KIND OF NUT, MAYBE NATIVE, MEAT LIKE...PECAN AND WALNUT

TART CHERRY


BLACK MULBERRY: HMMMM, I THINK THERE IS A SPECIES NATIVE TO USA, THIS MAY NOT BE THOUGH

APPLES (NOT THE WILD GRAPES)

PEARS

[King Salmon]

Sully: Nice pics man.

Miles:What I am saying is that when meat is eaten with vegetables or a "neutral" fruit like the tomato/avocado/cucumber(depending on what your definition of fruit is) there is no enzymic conflict.
So,the foods can be eaten at the same time Which means that in 24 hour period you can eat anything from the VLC menu at any time if you know which foods to include.

Example: Meat & bananas/watermelon/cantalope don't mix well.Likely to cause digestive problems.

However,Meat & tomato/cucumber/celery/radish/avocado no problems.Why?Because there is no enzymic conflict when eating these,even at the same time.

So,meat & vegetables don't digest the same,but at least there is no "conflict".

Btw,I rated watermelon the worst because it's most likely to cause digestive problems when eaten with meat compared to tomato and berries.Why?Because melons are the fruits,more than any other, that should be eaten by themselves because of their enzymic characteristics.

[Michael]

Absolutely superb pictures Sully!  Your wild pickings are always a joy to see.  You are, without doubt, the wild food King of the forum! 

You certainly seem to have a real abundance in your area of wild and domesticated fruit & nuts as well as an amazing selection of domesticated varieties.  It's fascinating to see images of the foods forum members around the world have available to them and the diversity is always a reminder of the wonder and beauty of nature.

I've never been able to find anywhere near the range of foods you regularly demonstrate.  Perhaps I don't look hard enough or perhaps my knowledge is, simply, not as extensive as your own as to what's edible and what isn't.  I did certainly enjoy the blackberries last year and lived on them and beef jerky during a 3 day hiking/camping trip.  Hopefully, I'll be repeating that this year and will keep a lookout for more variety.

Locally, along with the ubiquitous blackberries, I have located wild sources of small yellow plums, a walnut tree (very rare around here!) and various domesticated, but seemingly untended, apples and pears overhanging people's garden fences.  These supplied a good 'harvest' last year but the squirrels robbed most of the walnuts! 


KS, do you subscribe to the food combining principles of the Hay diet?  I used to be into this many years ago and did find it helpful.

[cliff]

@king salmon

Can we see some literature on this whole enzymatically correct theory??  Why could I not eat watermelon then eat meat 15 minutes later?

[Sully]

Michael
Thanks, I do have abundance, but no matter where I have been, for some reason I seem to spot edibles very easily. It is kind of weird, as I scan the trees/bushes things just keep popping up in my vision. I also have a mental map of areas to check out each year.
The photos are not all recent and span any where from 1-2 years ago. It's important to know when certain foods ripen, they are there, but only at certain times.
I have been gathering for about two years. So I know quite a few places in my mind where pickings are good. And yeah fruit trees that are abandoned, as far as care, are everywhere.

What kind of walnut tree? English or black walnut? English Walnuts don't grow here. However, when I went to Jordan, in the mountainous areas I saw an English walnut tree. My brother cracked one open and ate it.


On food mixing, it's very interesting, if you eat things close together it would make sense to eat the quickest digesting food first. Or eat them on separate days or hours apart. I don't know, but certain foods mix better than others. I can eat acidic fruits with nuts, but something like a banana, dates, would cause problems if I eat it with nuts, or right after I eat nuts. No problems if I eat it before the nuts, which confirms the theory of quicker digesting foods should be eat first if your eating in one meal. But pure fat, seems to mix well with many things, maybe cause it has no proteins etc. I don't know.

I also wonder how paleo man would have felt when he ate some wild fruits after not eating them in say 6-9 months. Digestion problems? Only ate a little at a time? Ate it with meat? Ate it only when there was no meat? Who knows.

[Michael]

..for some reason I seem to spot edibles very easily. It is kind of weird, as I scan the trees/bushes things just keep popping up in my vision. I also have a mental map of areas to check out each year.

These are rare and wonderful skills to have Sully and you seem to have acquired them relatively quickly.  Imagine how advanced your knowledge could be in 5-10 years time?!  I look forward to your first 'Wild Foods' book! 

What kind of walnut tree? English or black walnut? English Walnuts don't grow here. However, when I went to Jordan, in the mountainous areas I saw an English walnut tree. My brother cracked one open and ate it.

It's an English walnut.  We ate a whole bunch roasted(!!) on my friends log burner around Christmas.  They were pretty amazing!  I've never seen or tried the black walnuts but judging by your pictures the seem quite different.  I've used black walnut tinctures in the past as part of parasite cleanse programs.  It's be good to have access to these but I'm not sure if we get the black variety in England.