Dairy Dangers

[Satya]

Dairy is quite the controversial subject in the RVAF/RAF communities.  I think that it is safe to say that dairy is definitely a Neolithic food.  It can cause problems in many people, raw or not.  For instance, I get very paste-like stools when I consume any dairy.  My son breaks out in zits/spots when he consumes it.  (And in fact, he is more adamant about avoiding now than I am ... me liking a nibble of cheese from time to time).

I am looking for information about the dangers of dairy.  I know that type I diabetes has been linked to dairy consumption.  I think Chrohn's disease has too.  Any scientific studies or other articles on the problems with raw and pasteurized dairy would be most appreciated.

Thanks.

[Raw Kyle]

Check out Tyler's thread in the moderators forum, he's got tons of information.

[TylerDurden]

We do need more data, though, in order to complete the article - plus, anecdotal reports from RAFers, along with more scientific studies would help flesh out the article further.

[stevesurv]

Dairy is quite the controversial subject in the RVAF/RAF communities.  I think that it is safe to say that dairy is definitely a Neolithic food.  It can cause problems in many people, raw or not.  For instance, I get very paste-like stools when I consume any dairy.  My son breaks out in zits/spots when he consumes it.  (And in fact, he is more adamant about avoiding now than I am ... me liking a nibble of cheese from time to time).

I am looking for information about the dangers of dairy.  I know that type I diabetes has been linked to dairy consumption.  I think Chrohn's disease has too.  Any scientific studies or other articles on the problems with raw and pasteurized dairy would be most appreciated.

Thanks.

I would also like to see a study that explains why some have such bad reactions to dairy and others thrive on it. I don't think it's simply bad for everyone. One can drink too much of it and develop some problems, of course, but that's with almost any food. In moderation, some folks do very well with raw dairy especially fermented dairy.

[TylerDurden]

I disagree. Judging from anecdotal reports from USers who regularly visit Primal Dieters and other RAFers(who eat the most dairy) , it's been reported that those with no dairy-consumption, such as Instinctos, actually appear much healthier, in general. Also, there's a HUGE amount of self-deception involved. A very large number of raw-dairy-consumers are honestly convinced that being overweight and bloated  is somehow  a "good thing" or that being in a state of continuous so-called detox is somehow healthy. Plus, there are certain long-term deleterious effects which do turn up later in old age, as a result of incorporating dairy, raw or otherwise, such as increased dementia in the elderly and parkinsons' disease etc. etc.  I don't doubt that some may have adaptation to some extent resulting in minor benefits, but I suspect that, in the long-term, this adaptation is not worth it, given the extra complications.

[stevesurv]

Well, you've definitely done your homework so I won't try to argue with you. Although I still believe there's no danger in eating small amounts of fermented dairy for those who posses that genetic adaption. I also suspect there are plenty of raw (fermented)dairy consumers who've grown to be quite old without developing dementia, osteoporosis, parkinson's or whatever. If I come across a scientific study confirming this, you'll be the first to know.
  Nevertheless, milk can't shake a stick at good old organ meats and animal fat. I don't need to tell you that, of course.

[Satya]

I would also like to see a study that explains why some have such bad reactions to dairy and others thrive on it. I don't think it's simply bad for everyone. One can drink too much of it and develop some problems, of course, but that's with almost any food. In moderation, some folks do very well with raw dairy especially fermented dairy.

I suppose the question is: Are people thriving because of raw dairy, or inspite of it?  And really, what is a moderate consumption?  These are important questions.  Let's take a look at what dairy is: It is a product of lactation meant for the offspring of the animal for whom it is intended.  Now that is neither good nor bad, as many animals will exploit the offspring of a species (though never by suckling off of the mother that I am aware).  My point is that it requires the animal to be pregnant or nursing its young.  Do you think that forcing an animal to be pregnant all the time will be healthy for it or the consumer of its products?  Dairying is simply not sustainable for regular use in people.  I suppose the Masai could prove me wrong:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price9.html

Milk has many hormones and growth factors, like estrogen and IgF1, which are really bad news for people.  Mammary glands do hold great iodine strores, on the up side; but that is good for the mammary glands and can hold disease down, so lactation will strip stores over time.  On the downside, humans stop producing rennin to digest milk (um, and that is species' specific milk from the mother that is the proper food to digest as a child) after about age 12 unless the onslought of milk continues (probably a cow or goat product, generally).  Thus, I think it is a highly unnatural foodstuff for humans for many reasons.  The rare treat of some cheese or yogurt might actually be tolerated okay, but regular consumption is not that easy in the "natural" world, nor is it a good staple.

As a woman who lactated off and on for 4.5 years, I can tell you it is very demanding on the body from a nutritional/energy standpoint.  I can feel for the poor dairy animals.

[Satya]

BTW, I do appreciate the discussion, and it is partly for an article we are producing for rawpaleo.com that I brought it up.  Debate on the subject is most welcome, and the ongoing ideas really will 1) get me in the mood to add to and edit Tyler's extensive ideas and references on dairy dangers, and 2) help us to make sure we have covered all angles concerning dairy.

[stevesurv]

I suppose the question is: Are people thriving because of raw dairy, or inspite of it?  And really, what is a moderate consumption?  These are important questions.  Let's take a look at what dairy is: It is a product of lactation meant for the offspring of the animal for whom it is intended.  Now that is neither good nor bad, as many animals will exploit the offspring of a species (though never by suckling off of the mother that I am aware).  My point is that it requires the animal to be pregnant or nursing its young.  Do you think that forcing an animal to be pregnant all the time will be healthy for it or the consumer of its products?  Dairying is simply not sustainable for regular use in people.  I suppose the Masai could prove me wrong:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price9.html

Milk has many hormones and growth factors, like estrogen and IgF1, which are really bad news for people.  Mammary glands do hold great iodine strores, on the up side; but that is good for the mammary glands and can hold disease down, so lactation will strip stores over time.  On the downside, humans stop producing rennin to digest milk (um, and that is species' specific milk from the mother that is the proper food to digest as a child) after about age 12 unless the onslought of milk continues (probably a cow or goat product, generally).  Thus, I think it is a highly unnatural foodstuff for humans for many reasons.  The rare treat of some cheese or yogurt might actually be tolerated okay, but regular consumption is not that easy in the "natural" world, nor is it a good staple.

As a woman who lactated off and on for 4.5 years, I can tell you it is very demanding on the body from a nutritional/energy standpoint.  I can feel for the poor dairy animals.

I would say in spite of it. I don't view dairy the same way I do meat and animal fat. Of course, moderate consumption is highly individual and I've already read about the Masai and other cultures discussed in Dr. Price's book. That's why I'm skeptical about raw dairy being deleterious to all humans. I just don't believe that is consistent with reality.

[PaleoKyle]

One thing I do notice from being around so many WAPF members/followers is that dairy is #1. That is not what I derived from his book. I think the whole legal issue has a play too in people consuming so much dairy. I bet if the raw dairy was at the store or the market it would not be consumed so much. People also view raw dairy as a curative....so I guess the more the merry  :

My experience with raw milk:
I was underweight and sick when I began drinking raw milk, cream, and cultured cream. It took me to a normal weight. Once I maintained a steady weight I began to feel heavy and tired and would get daily nose bleeds. After a week off dairy I was feeling back to normal again.

[PaleoKyle]

I would say in spite of it. I don't view dairy the same way I do meat and animal fat. Of course, moderate consumption is highly individual and I've already read about the Masai and other cultures discussed in Dr. Price's book. That's why I'm skeptical about raw dairy being deleterious to all humans. I just don't believe that is consistent with reality.

Most of the healty tribes also consumed grains like rye. They ate bread and cooked food..........

[stevesurv]

Most of the healty tribes also consumed grains like rye. They ate bread and cooked food..........

They also never had to recover from years of eating trash. All ate raw as well as cooked animal food and most of them ate dairy.  The only degenerative illnesses reported were from those who decided to eat sugar and white flour. "White man's food." Ugh. Sugar. Deliciously disgusting.

[TylerDurden]

I'm afraid that Weston-Price was particularly dishonest as regards his claims, so one can't trust them too much. First of all, he arbitrarily designated numerous tribes, with very widely differing diets, as being supposedly  all equally healthy. This, in itself, is EXTREMELY unlikely as one would expect such totally different diets to produce quite different results re health.

Secondly, I found that his observation re the supposed good health of the Maori, prior to eating Western foods, was a complete fabrication. According to modern historians of the Maori(who've unlike Price checked the ancient Maori skeletons for evidence of malnutrition etc.), the Maoris,up to Captain Cook's time  were on a reasonably unhealthy diet consisting of grains such as manioc , but also, fortunately,  heavily supplemented by seafood - at the time, they were not in the best of health(dying very young at age 25 due to warfare, poor-quality foods or starvation due to insufficient foods etc.). Then the British came in 1840 and forced the Maoris into ever smaller areas (of swampland) where animal food was almost nonexistent, and where they were forced to depend on a diet consisting almost wholly of grains. The result was that huge numbers of Maori died like flies up until 1900, when their populations started finally  to recover. 1900 was also about the time that the Maori switched over to modern, Western, refined-food diets:-

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1102

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1107

I do concede that native tribes were much fitter than modern settled peoples, due to doing greater amounts of daily exercise, and that could offset the negative effects of a dairy-/grain-filled diet to some extent. But I rather doubt that they had the kind of health that Palaeo peoples had.

[TylerDurden]

The big problem with raw dairy is that it's the easiest raw animal food to get used to - the result is that people prefer it to the taste of healthier raw animal foods such as muscle-meat - plus they overindulge in dairy due to the highly addictive opioid hormones in the stuff. But there are huge numbers of people who admit to experiencing slight health problems even when they consume dairy in smaller quantities, so it's not just a question of overindulgence.

Another problem is that dairy seems to lead to water-retention, at least that's my own explanation for why it's so good at increasing peoples' weight on a RAF diet.

[stevesurv]

I'm afraid that Weston-Price was particularly dishonest as regards his claims, so one can't trust them too much. First of all, he arbitrarily designated numerous tribes, with very widely differing diets, as being supposedly  all equally healthy. This, in itself, is EXTREMELY unlikely as one would expect such totally different diets to produce quite different results re health.

Secondly, I found that his observation re the supposed good health of the Maori, prior to eating Western foods, was a complete fabrication. According to modern historians of the Maori(who've unlike Price checked the ancient Maori skeletons for evidence of malnutrition etc.), the Maoris,up to Captain Cook's time  were on a reasonably unhealthy diet consisting of grains such as manioc , but also, fortunately,  heavily supplemented by seafood - at the time, they were not in the best of health(dying very young at age 25 due to warfare, poor-quality foods or starvation due to insufficient foods etc.). Then the British came in 1840 and forced the Maoris into ever smaller areas (of swampland) where animal food was almost nonexistent, and where they were forced to depend on a diet consisting almost wholly of grains. The result was that huge numbers of Maori died like flies up until 1900, when their populations started finally  to recover. 1900 was also about the time that the Maori switched over to modern, Western, refined-food diets:-

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1102

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1107

I do concede that native tribes were much fitter than modern settled peoples, due to doing greater amounts of daily exercise, and that could offset the negative effects of a dairy-/grain-filled diet to some extent. But I rather doubt that they had the kind of health that Palaeo peoples had.

What do you think Dr. Price's motives were in fabricating evidence of healthy tribes?

[stevesurv]

I'm afraid that Weston-Price was particularly dishonest as regards his claims, so one can't trust them too much. First of all, he arbitrarily designated numerous tribes, with very widely differing diets, as being supposedly  all equally healthy. This, in itself, is EXTREMELY unlikely as one would expect such totally different diets to produce quite different results re health.

Secondly, I found that his observation re the supposed good health of the Maori, prior to eating Western foods, was a complete fabrication. According to modern historians of the Maori(who've unlike Price checked the ancient Maori skeletons for evidence of malnutrition etc.), the Maoris,up to Captain Cook's time  were on a reasonably unhealthy diet consisting of grains such as manioc , but also, fortunately,  heavily supplemented by seafood - at the time, they were not in the best of health(dying very young at age 25 due to warfare, poor-quality foods or starvation due to insufficient foods etc.). Then the British came in 1840 and forced the Maoris into ever smaller areas (of swampland) where animal food was almost nonexistent, and where they were forced to depend on a diet consisting almost wholly of grains. The result was that huge numbers of Maori died like flies up until 1900, when their populations started finally  to recover. 1900 was also about the time that the Maori switched over to modern, Western, refined-food diets:-

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1102

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1107

I do concede that native tribes were much fitter than modern settled peoples, due to doing greater amounts of daily exercise, and that could offset the negative effects of a dairy-/grain-filled diet to some extent. But I rather doubt that they had the kind of health that Palaeo peoples had.

Sounds to me that the main culprit here is grains not dairy. Due to this post, I think we can both agree on that. No?

[stevesurv]

The big problem with raw dairy is that it's the easiest raw animal food to get used to - the result is that people prefer it to the taste of healthier raw animal foods such as muscle-meat - plus they overindulge in dairy due to the highly addictive opioid hormones in the stuff. But there are huge numbers of people who admit to experiencing slight health problems even when they consume dairy in smaller quantities, so it's not just a question of overindulgence.

Another problem is that dairy seems to lead to water-retention, at least that's my own explanation for why it's so good at increasing peoples' weight on a RAF diet.

I agree that milk is addictive. I've found myself lovin' it a bit too much in the past. However, even during my love affair with it I didn't have any water retention. I still remained trim and fit. Although that may have been due to the grueling work in the Louisiana Summer I was doing on the organic farm at the time which was where I was buying my goat milk. As you have mentioned, this may have offset negative side effects of the daily kefir I was drinking. I think I was downing about 2 gallons of goat milk a week at that time but still felt great. I was a hard core Weston Price dieter. I think the diet appealed to me so much because it was such a huge upgrade from the SAD crap I was mindlessly chowing on and the subsequent afflictions it causes in some folks with certain genetic predispositions. So any improvement would have been a god send at that time. Today, the RPD trumps them all.

[TylerDurden]

What do you think Dr. Price's motives were in fabricating evidence of healthy tribes?

I don't think that Price ever intentionally fabricated evidence. I just think he was enthused by Rousseau's idea of "The Noble Savage"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

and ended up cherry-picking his data/photographic evidence to support his claims, while ignoring any evidence which contradicted his claims - not so much fraud as bias. For example, there was often a very high infant-mortality-rate in many such primitive cultures, and also, of course, such societies did not have the luxury of being able to support chronically ill folks etc., so that those tended to die early on, leaving only the relatively healthy to survive. Plus, as I said earlier, much higher levels of daily exercise would have made an enormous difference.

Sounds to me that the main culprit here is grains not dairy. Due to this post, I think we can both agree on that. No?

Absolutely. The Maori didn't touch dairy until the 20th century. But Price did point to various populations which ate grain as being supposedly healthy(the Swiss and the Scots?), of which I have my doubts. Of course, this is all a matter of degree, I suppose. I'm sure that the Swiss montain-folk  and the Highland Scots of the 1930s were a hell of a lot healthier than some of the urban slum populations of the era - I just don't see them as being at the peak of health, though, that's all.

[stevesurv]

I don't think that Price ever intentionally fabricated evidence. I just think he was enthused by Rousseau's idea of "The Noble Savage"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

and ended up cherry-picking his data/photographic evidence to support his claims, while ignoring any evidence which contradicted his claims - not so much fraud as bias. For example, there was often a very high infant-mortality-rate in many such primitive cultures, and also, of course, such societies did not have the luxury of being able to support chronically ill folks etc., so that those tended to die early on, leaving only the relatively healthy to survive. Plus, as I said earlier, much higher levels of daily exercise would have made an enormous difference.

Absolutely. The Maori didn't touch dairy until the 20th century. But Price did point to various populations which ate grain as being supposedly healthy(the Swiss and the Scots?), of which I have my doubts. Of course, this is all a matter of degree, I suppose. I'm sure that the Swiss montain-folk  and the Highland Scots of the 1930s were a hell of a lot healthier than some of the urban slum populations of the era - I just don't see them as being at the peak of health, though, that's all.

Do you think you've reached the peak of health or will ever reach the peak of health? I'm so fascinated with that concept. To be able experience life with truly radiant health.

[Satya]

One thing I do notice from being around so many WAPF members/followers is that dairy is #1. That is not what I derived from his book. I think the whole legal issue has a play too in people consuming so much dairy. I bet if the raw dairy was at the store or the market it would not be consumed so much. People also view raw dairy as a curative....so I guess the more the merry  :

Yes, this is my experience as a former member of WAPF.  And remember, only 2 of Price's natives - the Swiss and the Masai - consumed ANY dairy!  So yes, they have strayed far from the book.  Let's face it, Sally Fallon & Co. are big on raw dairy and also wheat (and don't even get me started on all the "healthy sugars").  I imagine it's an opioid thing.  Oh, and only the Swiss consumed a grain with gluten - rye.  Yet many other groups did eat grains, it is true.

My experience with raw milk:
I was underweight and sick when I began drinking raw milk, cream, and cultured cream. It took me to a normal weight. Once I maintained a steady weight I began to feel heavy and tired and would get daily nose bleeds. After a week off dairy I was feeling back to normal again.

Has anyone gained weight without dairy on an raf diet?  I have seen this before in men wanting to gain - they go for the dairy. 

[PaleoKyle]

Has anyone gained weight without dairy on an raf diet?  I have seen this before in men wanting to gain - they go for the dairy. 

I can't gain weight on the raf diet, but after I quit dairy I lost a little weight. Even after losing the dairy weight I did not go back to my previous weight.

[boxcarguy07]

Has anyone gained weight without dairy on an raf diet?  I have seen this before in men wanting to gain - they go for the dairy. 

I'm gaining weight without dairy... lol it's not impossible. It's all about calories.
Whole milk is just an easy source for a lot of calories... it's liquid so it's easy to get down a lot of it.

[TylerDurden]

Do you think you've reached the peak of health or will ever reach the peak of health? I'm so fascinated with that concept. To be able experience life with truly radiant health.

The problem is that for the first 30 years of life I drank pasteurised(and some raw) dairy to which I was allergic. It fouled up my glands etc. While I've recovered from my previous  health-conditions, I don't think I would be "as good/healthy" as if I'd been following a raw palaeolithic diet from birth. To take one example, I'm shorter than almost all  of the male members of my family(most are 6ft 3, I'm 6ft - I'm sure that dairy-consumption and processed foods fouled things up re growth-hormones etc.

There's also another consideration:- there's no way that I could ever  reliably emulate the kind of functional physical strength and endurance that the average Palaeolithic man would have had, given a relatively sedentary urban lifestyle(gym-visits notwithstanding).  Even in more settled, Neolithic times, the average rower could easily outcompete the weightlifting-/supplement-consuming  athletic rowers of today:-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070208100643.htm

http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-news/Fitness-has-fallen-since-the-days-of-Ancient-Greece-5014-1/

http://grhomeboy.wordpress.com/2007/02/10/ancient-greece-athletes-fitter-than-todays/

[Satya]

I'm afraid that Weston-Price was particularly dishonest as regards his claims, so one can't trust them too much. First of all, he arbitrarily designated numerous tribes, with very widely differing diets, as being supposedly  all equally healthy. This, in itself, is EXTREMELY unlikely as one would expect such totally different diets to produce quite different results re health.

Well, first off, the guy was a dentist from Ohio.  He was not an anthropologist or an MD.  That said, his book is of value.  The value of his book is that he demonstrated that isolated tribes who had not eaten the "foods of commerce" as he called them, had good teeth and facial structures (things of interest to a dentist).  Those (and their offspring) who indulged in sugar, flour, canned goods and the like suffered from bad teeth and poorly-formed faces.  I think the problem is that people jump from this to say "Oh, the natives were the optimal peoples feeding on the optimal foods."  And he was flat out wrong about some things (read his book to learn more).

Tyler, he has percentages of tooth decay (caries) for each isolated tribe, and if memory serves, the Inuit were the healthiest and the Swiss least so, according to his statistics.  The former ate mostly carnivorous fare with high percentage raw, the latter lived on rye bread and cheese as staples.  It should be also noted that the Inuit have close to the stature and brain case size of Paleolithic peoples, something I think that Weston Price, DDS failed to note (again, he was not an expert on the human body). 

I do concede that native tribes were much fitter than modern settled peoples, due to doing greater amounts of daily exercise, and that could offset the negative effects of a dairy-/grain-filled diet to some extent. But I rather doubt that they had the kind of health that Palaeo peoples had.

Yes, the traditional cultures were healthier than the industrialized folks, due in part to more exercise, more sunlight, less stress, etc..  But we can't look at the Paleolithic hunter-gatherers except in skeletal remains for comparison.

Finally, I will say that Weston Price dubiously reported that the widening of the upper arch of a "Mongoloid Idiot," aka Down's Syndrome boy of 16, changed his physical state (understandable) and:

"His mental change was even more marked. The space between the maxillary bones was widened about one-half inch in about thirty days. This lateral pressure on the maxillary bones was accomplished by rigid attachments to the teeth of the two sides of the upper arch. The outward movement of the maxillary bones (which form the roof of the mouth and sides of the nose) by pressure on the temporal bones produced a tension downward on the floor of the anterior part of the brain, thus stimulating the pituitary gland in the base of the brain. In a few weeks' time he passed through stages that usually take several years. At first, he got behind the door to frighten us; later, he put bent pins on chairs to see us jump when we sat down, and finally he became the cause of a policeman's coming to the office from where he was conducting traffic on the corner below to find who it was squirting water on him when his back was turned. He developed a great fondness for calling people over the telephone, wanted to borrow my automobile to take his mother for a drive, and with his arm caressingly about the shoulders of one of the secretaries, invited her to go with him to a dance. All this change developed in about twelve weeks."

Gee, maybe if it wasn't a chromosomal defect, and maybe if this treatment were now in effect for people with Down's Syndrome, showing remarkable improvements, then I might be able to trust Price's work more.  But alas, he was way out of his league and exaggerated quite a bit in some areas.  His photos are great, and I am pleased he conducted the research he did before industry wiped out so many of these tribes.  But you have to consider all of this when looking at his work.

It should be noted that Sally Fallon, founder and president of the WAPF is an English major.  She is no nutrition/health/human expert either. 

I would highly recommend that everyone keep the guru worship and dietary dogma to a minimum when looking for guidance on health matters.

[stevesurv]

I would highly recommend that everyone keep the guru worship and dietary dogma to a minimum when looking for guidance on health matters.

"Guru Worship" That's a good one.