Author Topic: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors  (Read 40584 times)

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Offline pioneer

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Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« on: August 14, 2010, 01:45:53 pm »
Read this article http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson159.htm of a Randy Roach interview and was like "I have got to get his book". Has anyone read his book Muscle Smoke and Mirrors? Im about to order it. In case any of you dont already know, Randy is a 100% natural raw meat diet bodybuilder and says that back in the day everyone was doing it.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 05:21:31 pm »
Yes, I've posted re this Randy Roach character before. Raw-meat-eating was widespread in bodybuilding days pruior to steroid-abuse. The reason is simple, that raw meats help build up muscles faster than cooked meats. Schwarzenegger mentions in his autobiography that when in the Austrian Army, he had to eat heavily overcooked meat at the army canteen so that, as a result, he had to eat twice as much cooked meat as before in order to maintain his bulk, and also exercise twice as much in order to get rid of the fat-layers gained.
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Offline dsohei

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 05:29:59 pm »
yes, i own and have read the book, volume 1 thst is. its about 600 pages and doesnt actually talk that much about raw food for how big it is focusing also on the history of the sport-hobby, but it has enough dietary info that it wasnt a complete waste of my time.
the 2 volume series was sponsored by the WAPF. the article that inspired the book is on their website and distills a lot of the important stuff, like exactly what certain old-time strong men ate.
basically, tons of calories, tons of sleep.
all their food was pre-twinkies, lots of meat, eggs, dairy and veg w/breads. a few of the successful strongmen were vegetarian part or full time and still achieved a lot.
as you can see, i'd love to talk more about it :)

Offline pioneer

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 11:45:12 pm »
I also heard an interview of Randy and his trainee bodybuilder on superhuman. The kid was gaining many kilos of muscle. He does pasquale's anabolic diet raw and it works great. It makes sense, but how paleo is it? Have any of you heard of the anabolic diet? Its when you are ketogenic monday-friday, then high carb during the weekend. Supposed to be something to do with putting on a lot of glycogen during the weekend, then spending it all up by wednesday, thus you dont store any fat. IDK, my body does not fair well with more than 100g of carbs. Not really because the carbs are bad, but because if I eat more carbs I eat less meat, and my body needs a lot of meat.
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Offline dsohei

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 04:28:19 pm »
yes, following the anabolic diet, leangains method, or joel marion's cheat to lose - all do some kind of keto/intermittent fasting method and then carb re-feed 1 or 2 days a week. i think for those of us who feel we are intolerant to carbs, we might need to re-adapt our bodies gradually to accept more carbs, and carbs of different types. starch rather than fructose seems to be the key.
it may be about increasing our metabolic flexibility, along with healing hormone imbalances and digestive flora. these guys certainly get specific results.
also, the more a person exercises correctly, the more they can teach their body to ingest LOADS of calories without getting fat.

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 01:22:50 am »
Pioneer,dsohei,which carbs are you referring to? rice? potato? corn? Are you guys going to be adding these to your regimen?

I've never seen anyone really have bodybuilding success without carbs.How much carbs does Randy Roach eat?

Btw,he doesn't seem that big really from the pics.but,he's bigger than me anyway ;)How much does he weigh?
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline dsohei

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 12:57:24 pm »
from what i've learnt about randy he is older, a legit senior citizen i think, and started eating raw relatively recently in his life, and claims it is helping him achieve the best results so far. he went blind a few years ago and still wrote and researched this massive book, and still trains champion BB'ers. he likes raw chicken alot (which i cannot stand).

as for the carb issue. i think if a person can tolerate it, or can heal to the point that carbs produce beneficial results, then yes they are necessary for peak performance, but not insane amounts. these guys advise carbs on refeed days and post-workout only, and keto the other meals. the amounts they eat seem enormous if you are not an intense athlete, but is not really crazy when you push yourself to that point.

when i exercise more & more, i will eat more starches, probably root vegs, probably baked because i can't think of an easier way to prepare them "raw". probably NOT grains or seeds, and definitely not refined carbs unless i learn otherwise. honey or white rice spikes the body quickly and that might be useful at times, but only if afterwards we can mitigate the damage.

for the average person, i think a ketogenic style diet with well-prepared wild vegetables and herbal plant medicine is long term sustainable.

Offline cliff

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 09:02:46 pm »
starch rather than fructose seems to be the key.


Yes!  The goal of the carb re-feed I assume is to stock the muscles with glycogen, very little fructose makes it to the muscles(20% at the most).  So if your eating fruits for your carb re-feeed your gonna be getting a lot of fructose that will just over burden your liver, something like sweet potatoe/yams is a much better option imo.

Offline dsohei

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 02:51:05 am »
something else on my mind re: this subject - athletic performance might be one end of the see-saw, while longevity may be another - so very intense activity may shorten life, but its a cost worth paying if thats what you want to experience (the thrill of the game)

the most aggressive peoples of the world seemed to live on raw meat and dairy (and their ferments) with starch stockpiles. whether grains, dairy, yams, or honey - they used carbs as a natural steroid.

in addition to using carbs specifically, i think herbal medicine should be included as part of a healthy diet.
raw/rare meats & offal, baked or sundried starches, bee products, herbal medicine. eaten in a cyclical manner and according to recent or future activity level.

this theory isn't perfect and i invite all flaws to be revealed!

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 04:22:26 am »
Most aggressive? Who dat be?
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2010, 04:30:22 am »
Aggression isn't related to diet.There are peaceful SAD-eaters, pleasant vegans, aggressive zero-carbers and vice-versa.  Aggression is purely cultural in terms of society, nothing more.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline dsohei

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2010, 05:05:57 am »
then let me be more specific: agression as in physical dominance, athleticism, and warfare - those cultures that could out-fight their neighbors. it's a trait of humans to conquer, and that trait can be controlled and re-directed to some extent.
for instance, if the mongols had a different diet, chances are good that they would not have been able to do what they did. also the spartans, etc.
of course there are many variables, but until the recent advent and availability of protein powders and supplements, we rarely saw vegan athletes, because a vegan diet predisposes a person towards a more probable outcome.
individuals have certain natural dispositions that nudge them in a direction, diet also nudges in certain directions, society is another nudger. and there are more, but you can see how if a society has aggressive values, and their diet lends itself towards anabolism, it creates a stronger momentum in that direction.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2010, 05:17:25 pm »
I'm afraid this is simply nonsense. One only has to look at the example of the Inuits who were extremely pacifistic despite their zero-carb diet. And there were many vegetarian-leaning nations who were very warlike.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline dsohei

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2010, 07:21:51 am »
yes, but the inuits had a VERY physical lifestyle due to the climate they lived in, so i think that all their anabolic/aggressive tendencies were used for survival actions.
and since many starches can be subbed for meat's stimulating qualities, then yes a vegetarian leaning culture can be very aggressive (relatively) because they have the sugar/carb stockpiles like yams.
i think rome's conquests were fueled on meat and a lot of grains - it takes a lot of calories to be that physical.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2010, 05:17:56 pm »
The idea that diet is linked to aggression makes no sense at all. Besides, the diets of the various conquering and pacifistic peoples were so varied from each other that one can't realistically suggest a common link between diet and behaviour.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline pioneer

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 12:54:50 pm »
Pioneer,dsohei,which carbs are you referring to? rice? potato? corn? Are you guys going to be adding these to your regimen?

I've never seen anyone really have bodybuilding success without carbs.How much carbs does Randy Roach eat?


No, Im not really thinking of doing starchy foods, or the anabolic diet, I just think in general raw foods will always give you better muscle gains, even while eating less than cooked eaters. BTW, plenty have gotten great results with muscle gains on low carb diets. Remember, a high protein diet is also a high carbohydrate diet, thus lots of glycogen storage. But macro nutrients aside, I think it is the meat eating that really adds the mass on. I mean, you could eat lbs of greens and get no results. It is only until you consume a considerable amount of meat, you gain muscle. I am however completely against the carbo loading strategy for bodybuilding. Many bodybuilders will go as far as making themselves insulin resistant. Besides, its not that they are really gaining muscle. Dont forget, glycogen and stored carbs hold a lot of water. Some of these carbo loader bodybuilders are doing nothing more than gaining only a little muscle, storing a lb of carbohydrates (glycogen), much fat, and up to 20 lbs of water. When I try to put on mass, I do it slowly and smartly without carbo loading, and it works for me. Ideally, you want to aim for no more than 5 lb weight gain a month, ensuring that most of it is muscle.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2010, 02:03:33 pm »
When I try to put on mass, I do it slowly and smartly without carbo loading, and it works for me. Ideally, you want to aim for no more than 5 lb weight gain a month, ensuring that most of it is muscle.

I consider that actually very fast muscle gain. That's 60 lbs a year of muscle.

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2010, 02:49:08 pm »
Pioneer,so how many pounds of meat do you eat a day? How much do you weigh and how much have you gained in how much time? I'm assuming you're consuming reasonable amount of fats as well?
 For myself,I like to chow down on ground beef and lamb(apart from my salmon & tuna which I'm starting to cut down on).On occasion,I'll cheat and eat roasted chicken cause it taste great and I don't really like raw chicken.
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Offline dsohei

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2010, 03:15:39 pm »
eating all that (raw) red meat is also getting you heaps of natural creatine

Offline dsohei

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2010, 03:21:31 pm »
and re: diet & behavior - i know for sure that diet affects my behavior... my point is that certain food groups act upon people in certain ways. the culture and individual genetics affect the total outcome, but has their ever been a war-mongering vegan culture? even if they were aggressive, it would probably be passive aggressive. an aggressive wimp is called a jerk, while an aggressive athlete is called dangerous. diet can be used as a weapon in the right hands, and often has in the past.

and the point that all the diets were varied - true, and nature always provides multiple options to achieve a certain outcome, especially if that outcome is necessary for a species evolution and survival.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2010, 05:55:06 pm »
The strongly vegetarian Hindus have been very aggressive in the past(even nowadays, one hears about Muslims being lynched by Hindu mobs etc.). Some Hindus are even 100% vegan.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Brady

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2010, 06:00:25 pm »
The idea that diet is linked to aggression makes no sense at all. Besides, the diets of the various conquering and pacifistic peoples were so varied from each other that one can't realistically suggest a common link between diet and behaviour.

Tyler I suggest you and everyone else on the thread watch this video called Nutrition and Behavour by Dr Russell Blaylock (World renowned Brain Surgeon/Nutritionist), it should put this argument to bed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2963728494205235281#
The culture and civilization of the White man are essentially material; his measure of success is, "How much property have I acquired for myself?" The culture of the Red man is fundamentally spiritual; his measure of success is, "How much service have I rendered to my people?"

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Offline pioneer

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2010, 11:09:42 pm »
Pioneer,so how many pounds of meat do you eat a day? How much do you weigh and how much have you gained in how much time? I'm assuming you're consuming reasonable amount of fats as well?
 For myself,I like to chow down on ground beef and lamb(apart from my salmon & tuna which I'm starting to cut down on).On occasion,I'll cheat and eat roasted chicken cause it taste great and I don't really like raw chicken.

Im 5'10" and weigh 175. Im about 7% bodyfat. I usually consume 1 lb of raw organ meat and 1 lb of raw muscle meat spread throughout the day. I also eat blended vegetable juices from various organic vegetables. I eat about 1 cup of beef suet/ marrow a day. I also make coconut and egg milk shakes. Since this diet I have gained 15 lbs of muscle. I have done it slowly and intelligently to ensure little fat (if any) gains. I am in now way an advocate of the skinny fat free look though, and actually think it is healthier to carry a little belly. However I enjoy the attention I get from the ladies when I am lean. I used to be a 200lb meathead with a lot of fat as well. Then I got on cooked paleo and dropped to 160. My weight stabilized at 160 for about 8 months til I got on RPD. Then I gained 15 lbs of mainly muscle in 3 months. I plan on getting to 190 someday, but am in no rush for it. Whats cool about this diet is that even if you are a hard gainer like me, rest assured the muscle will come. The anabolic environment one gets with this diet is completely different from a cooked diet. It is almost like you go from an endo/ ecto to a mesomorph in a matter of months.

One thing I am going to do in the future is eat brain and testicles. Eating brain with the pituitary gland in it ensures pituitary health and hormone regulation. Eating testicles, well, raises testosterone. However I dont know how it raises testosterone. Or whether it is temporary or not. When I do this experiment I am going to get blood tests before and after to see the results.

I was also thinking of going back to a cooked diet for like 5 months, then back to raw so I can do before and after comprehensive blood tests for vitamins, minerals, hormones, etc... I then would write about it to help others.

I consider that actually very fast muscle gain. That's 60 lbs a year of muscle.

Yes it is fast, but some people cannot wait even that long to gain more muscle. Everyone wants it all now. I suggest that no more than 5 lbs a month is gained. And even at that, not all of it will be muscle, some will be fat. In the past when I was SAD, I did the whole carbo load thing and gained 20 lbs in a month with a lot of water and fat. However, this is actually a stupid approach. When I lost the weight to lose fat, I lost a lot of muscle and I was actually back to square one anyway. Thats why I say do it slowly. Even if you gain 1 lb a month, thats still progress, and it is sure as hell better than gaining 15 lbs of water and fat. In my past experiences, good muscle gains do not come from carbo loading. Carbs do have their place in muscle gaining, but not the way we've been told.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

"There is a lot of pressure to be sexualized but not to actually be sexual."
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Offline pioneer

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2010, 11:36:46 pm »
Tyler I suggest you and everyone else on the thread watch this video called Nutrition and Behavour by Dr Russell Blaylock (World renowned Brain Surgeon/Nutritionist), it should put this argument to bed.

amazing video, besides Paul Chek's lectures and some of the ones on ted.com, that is the best lecture I have ever heard.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 11:50:47 pm by pioneer »
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

"There is a lot of pressure to be sexualized but not to actually be sexual."
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Offline Brother

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Re: Randy Roach, Muscle Smoke and Mirrors
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2010, 01:51:46 am »
Read this article http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson159.htm of a Randy Roach interview and was like "I have got to get his book". Has anyone read his book Muscle Smoke and Mirrors? Im about to order it. In case any of you dont already know, Randy is a 100% natural raw meat diet bodybuilder and says that back in the day everyone was doing it.

Read this article http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson159.htm of a Randy Roach interview and was like "I have got to get his book". Has anyone read his book Muscle Smoke and Mirrors? Im about to order it. In case any of you dont already know, Randy is a 100% natural raw meat diet bodybuilder and says that back in the day everyone was doing it.

Hi folk's, I have been lurking the forums for a while and thought this was a good time to get into the conversation as I infact own this book. And I know Randy. I will say this. If you are looking for strictly nutritional info and advice, then you will find very little of it. It is however a very very good book that goes into depth detail about body culture from it's beginnings. All seen from a nutritional perspective. The first generations of body culturists was heavily into what they called whole foods. By this they meant what we today call 'organic' food and healthy living. I found it striking how much these pioneers view on nutrion resembles the most up-to-date health guru's of today. It describes how greed and pride poisoned this outlook and how the wave of 'supplements' ,that has become no less with time, came into being.  It is well written, well informed and a must read for anyone interested in body culture. As simple as that.

I have taken a couple of phone consultations with Randy and it has helped me greatly in focusing my training and nutrition. My own results have been great. But nothing speaks with authority like a picture. This is Randy.



the guy is 50. He also worked with Joshua Trentine and his results as an actual bodybuilder (not just body hobbyist like me) speaks for themselves.

 

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