Salt

[TylerDurden]

Let's get back to salt-related discussions.

[Michael]

I agree.  Any further thoughts on the use of salt?

As an additional note, I have started to reduce my salt intake recently and am no longer adding it to my foods.  I am still regularly eating a raw grass-fed butter which is made with celtic sea salt, however.  I've noticed no effects from the reduction so far.

[djr_81]

I agree.  Any further thoughts on the use of salt?

I add it occasionally still albeit at a greatly reduced usage. A dash here or there (every couple of days at most). I'm at a point where I can feel the need.
Interestingly I'm noticed further improvement to my hypostatic orthotension through more sleep. I think part of my issue was unknowingly eating too little food for the rest I was getting. I'm putting on mass too since the change to my sleeping pattern.

[Michael]

Interesting to hear you're adding a little salt back in again Dan.  Thanks for the update.

I can relate to the sleep patterns.  I expect my late nights are causing me problems.  It's midnight here and I'm posting on the forum which is ridiculous!  Must get to bed!  

Glad to hear you're observing continuing improvements.

[PaleoPhil]

Didn't Stone Agers have access to salt from animal blood and salt licks? Other primates are known to utilize salt licks (http://www.proyectoprimates.org/files/Protocols/Salt_Lick_Camera_and_Video_Camera_Traps.html)--why not Stone Age humans?

[Hanna]

Some instinctos seem to need much salt because they eat cassia fistula in large quantities. I wonder if cassia contributes to teeth problems (mineral deficiency).

[Wattlebird]

for what its worth, another perspective on salt..
I sip seawater from time to time (I am also attracted to shellfish and I eat seaweeds directly from the rocks) as the salt seems to replenish fluids excreted.
Too much straight water combined with high water content foods such as fruit and vegies, tends (for me) to promote headache type symptoms.
But this symptom is absent when my natural attraction to a salt-taste is followed, and likewise drinking straight water to instinct, rather than the recommended amount I 'should' be drinking.

[zeno]

I've nearly completely removed salt from my diet (except for the occasional social gathering). I'm now experimenting with instinctive eating and conventional foods and I find that I crave salt and generally in combination with protein. I've never craved salt and carbohydrates. However, when I did begin to crave meat again I was sure to enjoy it raw with salt and it was very satisfying.

I don't think I'll starve myself of salt again if my body is crying out for it.

Jon Barron discusses the consumption of salt by animals and humans historically in this review of the Paleo Diet. I think there is something to having a small amount of salt to the diet. Your body will tell you how much you need. All you need to do is be attentive and wait for the signals.

[aLptHW4k4y]

It's an essential mineral, and the RDA is similar to potassium, 2-3 grams/day. It's not good when you get them out of balance, e.g. a lot of potassium and little salt, or the other way around.
It's really hard to get enough sodium through diet alone, especially raw diet.
There's nothing wrong then with "supplementing" a bit here and there on your meat..

[aLptHW4k4y]

They think that the stomach cannot produce sufficient stomach acid if there is too little salt in the diet.

Well salt is NaCl, stomach acid is HCl, so at least the Cl in the salt helps produce stomach acid. I'm not sure whether we get chloride from some other foods?
Potassium btw is just as important as chloride for the production of HCl.

[Wattlebird]

I don't think I'll starve myself of salt again if my body is crying out for it.
 I think there is something to having a small amount of salt to the diet. Your body will tell you how much you need. All you need to do is be attentive and wait for the signals.

Hi Zeno,
for what its worth, I think it is significant that we have an attraction to a 'salty taste' in the first place. And when, we cease eating processed, packaged foods that often contain added salt, certain foods like fish, shellfish, seaweed, or bloody meat, or celery or other vegetables, even sucking on sea-salt crystals, become especially attractive at certain times. Wisdom of the Body in action.
Kind wishes, J

[Adora]

Every blood draw I can remember shows I am very low in sodium. I grew up eating home made foods from my grandma that were low salt b/c they followed doctors guidelines. So, I don't really like salt on food. But I discovered that I was actually craving salt when I thought I was craving salty carb foods I used to eat like chips, pepperoni sausage. I don't crave those things now that I just eat salt. Once in a while I do want salt on food. I think it helps me to get more salt in when I need it. It is hard for me to eat more than a little shake in my hand. I can add lots of salt to fat and it still tastes good. I get a stop though, even with food. I get sour and salt stops very powerfully. But sweet and bitter are very subtle.
      I believe it is medicine I need. I treat it that way. I'm chronically  ill though. I'm not like a caveman. Those rules don't exactlly apply. Without  insulin I would have been fertilizer for your cows grass. I don't think if I had been born a cave woman or living this way I ever would have developed diabetes so mostly I do follow.
    Also, I used to see myself as a mind in a body, but now I am a body with a loving mind in service of me. I like it better.  Body and mind can booth be mistaken, and mine rarely agree, but it keeps my experience primary

[jessica]

adora you should read dr. l wilsons personalities as attributed to mineral levels in the body, he has several articles on specific minerals and traits associated with people who have either high or low levels of these, its pretty interesting

http://drlwilson.com/Articles/personality.htm

[jessica]

i didnt eat salt for the longest time becuase i thought it was unhealthy...i only started salting foods in the last three years.  i know after times when my life is extremely stressful i will be much more generous with salt on my food as if my adrenals are just burning through it.  i have a lot of ailments and weird issues around food and mistreating my body and health though and my adrenals are pretty low functioning and struggle to maintain a good balance of minerals in my body (edema, thrist and pissing more then normal is my measure for this)

[Iguana]

To be sure to ingest the proper amount of salt and of the various foodstuffs you eat, you shouldn't put salt on it, but instead eat everything unmixed, unprocessed, unseasoned and unsalted.

Then get some salt from shellfish, shellfish-water, seawater - and even perhaps sucking on sea-salt crystals, as Wattlebird wrote. So, you can instinctively feel exactly how much salt your body currently needs. 

Cheers
Francois

[Adora]

Hi Jessica I looked at the website thanks for sending it.

[PaleoPhil]

To be sure to ingest the proper amount of salt and of the various foodstuffs you eat, you shouldn't put salt on it, but instead eat everything unmixed, unprocessed, unseasoned and unsalted.

Then get some salt from shellfish, shellfish-water, seawater - and even perhaps sucking on sea-salt crystals, as Wattlebird wrote. So, you can instinctively feel exactly how much salt your body currently needs. 

Cheers
Francois

That's an interesting point, Iguana. Traditional peoples didn't have salt shakers that they sprinkled salt from, they had wild seafood, animal blood and salt licks. However, given the rarity and expense of those foods, couldn't sprinkling natural sea salt on food be viewed as a decent stand-in? If the salt that's naturally in seafood and mammal blood is OK, then when those are less available in the diet, wouldn't it be relatively OK to add a small amount back, especially when one's test results have revealed low  sodium levels in the bodily fluids?

[Wattlebird]

for what its worth, an example of salt attraction (for me) in practice happened today:
I went down to the beach and walking through the dunes there were plenty of pigface flowers. These are an indigenous plant and you can eat the budding flowers, which taste a bit like lychee. Anyway, I ate one and that was that. Sometimes, I could literally pig-out on pigface (no disrespect to pigs). But not today, too sweet for current requirements.
But on geting down to the foreshore there was lots of washed up kelp that had dried out in the sun. I ate a small strand which was delightfully salty. Then ate another one and another one. Then enough was enough.
Simply didn't want any more.

[Iguana]

Yes Wattelbird, I just forgot seaweeds as a source of salt!

However, given the rarity and expense of those foods, couldn't sprinkling natural sea salt on food be viewed as a decent stand-in? If the salt that's naturally in seafood and mammal blood is OK, then when those are less available in the diet, wouldn't it be relatively OK to add a small amount back especially when one's test results have revealed low sodium levels in the bodily fluids?

Phil, yes it would be “relatively ok”… as it is relatively ok to think that we can master and reengineer the nature and the whole world, that we have the knowledge and power to control and shape everything, to cure what we perceive as inadequacies in the natural world such as redirecting rivers, genetically modifying plants and animals, cutting or burning the forest to plant crops, then spraying pesticides against weeds ands insects - especially when test results have revealed infestations - and so on.

That way of thinking based on human external diagnostic and prescription (instead of letting the nature to re-equilibrate itself) is precisely the one that is leading mankind to destroy the environment and the whole planet.

If someone has too low sodium levels in the bodily fluids, this person will very probably be attracted by raw, unprocessed and unmixed salted stuff such as seaweeds, shellfish, seawater or sea-salt crystals and spontaneously eat the needed amount to restore her equilibrium. I think such a phenomenon is called homeostasis. 

Cheers
Francois 

[PaleoPhil]

If someone has too low sodium levels in the bodily fluids, this person will very probably be attracted by raw, unprocessed and unmixed salted stuff such as ... sea-salt crystals....

Yes, that's basically what I meant--raw, unprocessed sea salt crystals. So that is OK, right? Do you think it's OK to grind the crystals to make consuming it a bit easier, quicker and more pleasant? By unmixed, do you mean you don't believe anyone should sprinkle hand-ground sea salt crystals on foods?

Even with adding some sea salt to my foods, my sodium level was measured as still allegedly too low. I do also eat it separately at times, but I find I eat even less of it when I do that. I find it more palatable when it's with other foods, in the same way that salt is mixed in naturally with the fish and seaweed. I don't extract the salt from the fish or seaweed and eat it separately. It comes mixed in the same package. Our land mammal meats are unnaturally drained of their salt-containing blood, so adding a small amount of salt back doesn't seem that strange when someone's salt levels are low.

On the other hand, maybe today's standards of what's too low are wrong, but if someone with low salt levels also has low HCL and some difficulty digesting meats as a result, then adding sea salt to meat and/or water seems like a more natural alternative to taking HCL pills,  and it makes sense that it might help because salt contributes to the production of HCL in the body, which Hannah hinted at and aLptHW4k4y explained. If anyone using sea salt crystals should experience negative effects, they could simply stop using it.

[Hanna]

Potassium btw is just as important as chloride for the production of HCl.

Why?

my sodium level was measured as still allegedly too low.

Interesting. My blood was tested a few years ago and AFAIK my sodium level was fine. Perhaps there is sufficient salt in vegetables? I have always eaten either vegetables or/and seafood. However, my blood hasn´t been tested since. i hoped that the company doctor would do that but since I refused the vaccination, he didn´t want to test my blood either.

I don´t know whether i would meanwhile be able to enjoy (and digest) fresh mammal muscle meat - and I don´t care . I feel very well (also healthwise) ever since I have a job that I enjoy very much! Therefore, I´m not motivated to experiment with diet for the time being ("never change a running system"). My diet is essentially unchanged since years.

[Iguana]

Yes, that's basically what I meant--raw, unprocessed sea salt crystals. So that is OK, right? Do you think it's OK to grind the crystals to make consuming it a bit easier, quicker and more pleasant? By unmixed, do you mean you don't believe anyone should sprinkle hand-ground sea salt crystals on foods?

Are there animals doing that? Did our pre-fire ancestors do that?

in the same way that salt is mixed in naturally with the fish and seaweed. I don't extract the salt from the fish or seaweed and eat it separately. It comes mixed in the same package.

Yes, that’s natural. No animal would do it neither.

Our land mammal meats are unnaturally drained of their salt-containing blood

Are they? It seems to me that generally most of the blood flows out after the animal has been wounded and killed, even more so when a predator had started to eat it and is chased away by a band of hominids armed with stones, sticks or assegais.   

On the other hand, maybe today's standards of what's too low are wrong, but if someone with low salt levels also has low HCL and some difficulty digesting meats as a result, then adding sea salt to meat and/or water seems like a more natural alternative to taking HCL pills,  and it makes sense that it might help because salt contributes to the production of HCL in the body, which Hannah hinted at and aLptHW4k4y explained. If anyone using sea salt crystals should experience negative effects, they could simply stop using it.

Sure, it is probably less of an artifice, but still is. Why not drink sea water or eat seaweeds instead, for example ? This way, the right amount of salt will be instinctively precisely regulated, something you don’t get when you mix salt with other foodstuff, which overrides the instinctive regulation both for salt and for the particular foodstuff. Negative effects very often shows up years or decades latter in live, most of the times too late.   

[jessica]

  iguana do you think its a little bit ironic that, perhaps our ancestors did not use such specialized tools as salt grinders, and perhaps they did not also stare into computer screens and have lengthy discussions backed by hearsay and science about the minutia of diet

[PaleoPhil]

Interesting. My blood was tested a few years ago and AFAIK my sodium level was fine. Perhaps there is sufficient salt in vegetables? I have always eaten either vegetables or/and seafood. However, my blood hasn´t been tested since.

Sounds like you should be fine re: salt.

i hoped that the company doctor would do that but since I refused the vaccination, he didn´t want to test my blood either.  ....

Wow! Using coercion to try to force you into getting vaccinated. Despicable.

Are there animals doing that? Did our pre-fire ancestors do that?

See discussion aid #1 in my signature. I'm not into re-enactment for re-enactment's sake. If something helps, I don't see the point of not doing something just because animals or ancestors didn't do it. Animals and ancestors can be a clue about what to do, but not the final answer.
 

Sure, it is probably less of an artifice, but still is. Why not drink sea water or eat seaweeds instead, for example ?

I do eat seaweeds and I also have a seaweed-shaker salt substitute, though it's not as good tasting as sea salt and taste is supposed to be important for Instinctos, is it not? My question was regarding when people won't do that, for whatever reason, or it's not enough to get their sodium, HCL or calorie levels up and adding salt could help do that. Why refuse to try it just because it's not a pure re-enactment? If they found themselves consuming too much salt as a result, they could end the experiment.

This way, the right amount of salt will be instinctively precisely regulated, something you don’t get when you mix salt with other foodstuff,

As I pointed out, salt is naturally mixed with seaweed, seawater, saltwater fish, land mammal blood, and it's in most foods, including veggies, as Hannah pointed out. The amount of salt in plants and animals varies depending on the salt content of the local soils, so adding salt might just raise the sodium level of a food up to the natural level it would have reached in an area with higher-sodium soils. I think you even mentioned that it's OK to add salt to water and drink it. So why is it OK to add salt to water and to eat foods that contain salt, but not to add salt to foods if one is still deficient in it?

Negative effects very often shows up years or decades latter in live, most of the times too late.

What evidence are you basing that on? Is that something GCB tracked? Did some Instinctos ignore GCB's advice on salt but follow all his other advice to the letter and suffer serious problems years later? If so, how many and how would he know that they didn't secretly ignore his advice on other matters?

[aLptHW4k4y]

Sure, it is probably less of an artifice, but still is. Why not drink sea water or eat seaweeds instead, for example ? This way, the right amount of salt will be instinctively precisely regulated, something you don’t get when you mix salt with other foodstuff, which overrides the instinctive regulation both for salt and for the particular foodstuff. Negative effects very often shows up years or decades latter in live, most of the times too late.   

So where do I find this seaweeds and sea water? I don't live near the coast.
I mean you're being really extreme regarding processing here.
Whether I drink sea water or eat similar amount of salt that comes from that same sea water where the water has evaporated under the sun..
You can push to be "in tune with your instincts", but obviously in some cases it can be dangerous, e.g. "I'm away from salty foods or waters but I won't eat salt as it will override my instincts".