Salt

[Hanna]

There are instinctos and other raw food eaters in Germany who believe that one cannot digest proteins and in particular raw meat if one doesn´t consume sufficient amounts of salt. Therefore, they drink, for example, every morning a sea salt solution or seawater or (if they are not instinctos) they eat salted meat or the like. What do you think about that? Do you consume seasalt or seawater on a regular basis? I like seaweed, but if I don´t eat any seaweed I probably don´t consume much salt.

[TylerDurden]

It's an urban myth. One doesn't need salt in order to digest raw meats. Indeed, I and many others have found that raw meats digest less well if condiments like salt are added.

[Iguana]

I had never heard that and I agree with Tyler. I use seawater to brush my teeth. Sometimes I like to drink a little bit of it.

[Susan]

Although I'm no "Instincto" (please can we change this term into "instinctive raw fooder" or something else?) I like to drink seawater regulary und when there is no seawater available I leak salt. Particulary when my blood pressure is down salt helpes me to come up again.

[Hanna]

I had never heard that

They think that the stomach cannot produce sufficient stomach acid if there is too little salt in the diet.

[Michael]

It's been my own experience that 'good' salt such as Celtic or Himalayan can be useful.

I've had long-standing adrenal problems which results in my body being unable to suitably hold salt to the point that it's extremely difficult to work up a sweat.  Of course, like Susan mentioned, this also causes low blood pressure and it's associated consequences.  In addition, I've also long had suspected hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid) causing digestive difficulties which I supplement with Betaine Hydrochloride.

Using Celtic seasalt on my food and a pinch in drinking water seems to help immensely in my case with all of these issues.  Of course, I've been hoping the problems would resolve on long-term RAF/RPD but they certainly haven't so far.  I've tried many times cutting salt out entirely for long periods as I fear the practice may have consequences of it's own but have always felt much worse.

So, perhaps the answer to the dilemma of using salt is not quite so black and white.

[MoonStalkeR]

I have dehydration issues so extra sodium is needed, especially when eating dehydrating food like fruit. To obtain it I add sea salt to meat and wait for to dissolve (this way the crystals don't cause mechanical damage).

[Iguana]

Always have some seawater at home is very useful: to brush our teeth (as I mentioned), to wash the fish and to drink some in case we like it – apparently to fulfill a need of salt. We can also get some salt by eating seaweed or shellfish.

Although I'm no "Instincto" (please can we change this term into "instinctive raw fooder" or something else?)

There’s no “instinctos”as such: there are only human beings having eaten raw and instinctively for a certain period of their life. “Instincto” is just a way of speaking like we say “low carber” or “vegetarian”: what is the problem with that as long as we don’t forget we speak about a person, a dynamic being in constant evolution and change whom we shouldn’t categorize?

We have an unwise tendency to categorize everything whereas in nature there are always continuous transitions, everything being interdependent and connected with the rest of the universe.

Cheers
Francois

[Susan]

The term "instincto" is linked with Guy-Claude Burger, his ideas and of course with his followers. But I'm a follower of myself and so I prefer to call myself an "instinctive raw fooder", a term which isn't linked with somebody.

[ThatWasJustYourLife84]

I eat salt personally with my raw meats because a certain amount on the meat tastes incredible. If I put too much on a bite of my raw meat, though, it tastes terrible.

Just following my instincts with that one.

[Iguana]

The term "instincto" is linked with Guy-Claude Burger, his ideas and of course with his followers. But I'm a follower of myself and so I prefer to call myself an "instinctive raw fooder", a term which isn't linked with somebody.

Are you worried about Alphagruis' sarcasms? Nobody is “instincto”, neither “primal dieter” nor vegetarian by birth! We eat “instincto” or whatever and there’s no such people as instinctos, paleo dieters or vegetarians: this is only diets we are experimenting or practicing for a fraction of our life and we are all homo sapiens (at least according to current knowledge). You are Susan, not "an instincto".

If we pretend that the Sun is the center of the solar system, are we anyhow linked with Copernicus? Are we therefore followers of Copernicus, are we linked with him? Would that be a problem to be linked that way with Copernicus because we are following his ideas?
 
Cheers
Francois

[Michael]

We have an unwise tendency to categorize everything whereas in nature there are always continuous transitions, everything being interdependent and connected with the rest of the universe.

A beautiful, inciteful and elegant observation and description Francois.  I'm tempted to add that sentence to my forum signature.

[raw-al]

Ayurveda says that salt being one of the 6 tastes is required to be supplemented for some persons. Vata. Everbody requires all 6 tastes at each meal, but for instance there is salt in meat, etc. The reasons for this (salt requirement) have been enumerated by the people posting here. It has nothing to do with it being a myth. We are not all created the same. Even though this is obvious, modern researchers have difficulty with this idea.

However for some people like myself salt is like eating liquid fire. I have various reactions to it which are not comfy, so I put it in nothing and if I eat it accidentally say at a restaurant etc when I travel and have no choice, (Eat or starve) I pay a price.
For Pitta predominant persons; (me) sore throats leading to colds, dental pain, upset stomach, nausea, high blood pressure, etc.
For Kapha predominant persons high blood pressure etc. A friend of mine (non-raw foodist) was told he had high blood pressure. Turned out that the "ultra-healthy" V-8 vege juice he was drinking for lunch every day was loaded with sodium. Gave it up and the problem left.

For example, with vata predominant persons, salt along with other things can cure a sore throat. Cures low blood pressure also and indigestion in some persons.

This is why when I hear people make blanket statements that everyone should eat such and such or that scientists have discovered that we should be consuming (fill in the blank) I wince because it generally means that they are selling something and have done but a cursory glance or have looked at slanted data or talking in terms of percentages.

A close relative of mine is a nutritionist in a large hospital. She is Kapha and used to eat lots of salt. It used to make me sick watching her eat the stuff at the table. Predictably she became grossly overweight and had very premature grey hair, another result of too much salt.

[alphagruis]

A beautiful, inciteful and elegant observation and description Francois.  I'm tempted to add that sentence to my forum signature.

Michael, I would refrain from doing so because first the whole science and knowledge of nature necessarily implies categorization. And second it is utterly wrong that "in nature there are always continuous transitions". There are in fact everywhere major and ubiquitous discontinuous transitions as very basic Physics and Biology tells us.   

[Michael]

Thank you for your equally wonderfully eloquent comments alphagruis.

I find this a fascinating insight into the different perspectives taken by yourself and Francois and, perhaps, a clue as to why you both - if you excuse my presumption to judge - seem to fervently disagree on many things.

I respect and admire both of your opinions for different reasons and I think you both have much wisdom and knowledge to offer.

One's views in life are formulated from a lifetime of unique experience and education as well as, perhaps, a genetically inherited disposition.  It's very easy to convince oneself that one's own views are exclusively correct but I suspect this is rarely the case.

Without wishing to 'categorise' either of you and thus extend your own argument, I recognise and appreciate the broad, artistic, philosophical view of Francois as well as your own detailed, analytical, scientific bias.  I very much think there is a place for both views and, even in this specific case, recognise that you are both correct.

I suspect that both of your initial individual reactions to these comments (whether expressed or not) will further confirm such delineation  eg you will refute the possibility that you can both be correct and Francois will reject your own proposals entirely.   

[Susan]

This time I want to be linked with somebody: like Michael I want to say thank you for your last comment, alphagruis.

[Iguana]

We have an unwise tendency to categorize everything whereas in nature there are always continuous transitions, everything being interdependent and connected with the rest of the universe.

Michael, I would refrain from doing so because first the whole science and knowledge of nature necessarily implies categorization. And second it is utterly wrong that "in nature there are always continuous transitions". There are in fact everywhere major and ubiquitous discontinuous transitions as very basic Physics and Biology tells us.    

I very much think there is a place for both views and, even in this specific case, recognise that you are both correct.

Yes, Michael, I also think we are both correct. The disagreement seems to be because we applied our comments to different fundamental points of views. Of course, I know that we have to analyze things separately to construct per example a car, that its cylinder head can nowadays be detached form the crankcase, and the car itself can be taken away form the road surface... What I meant, and perhaps I wasn’t specific and clear enough, is that every object is per example subject to the universal gravitation  and connected to the rest of the universe mass. See also the EPR paradox.
 
When an engineer designs an automotive cylinder head, he’d better take into account the rest of the engine it is intended to, and even the kind of infrastructure and driving conditions the vehicle will have to face. He also has these days to take into consideration the global influence of that head design on exhaust emissions and environment. However, automotive OEM’s are not yet accountable for the influence of theirs engineering designs on the destiny of the Galaxy.  

As for categorizing things for studying them, of course we have to, and that’s how our science and knowledge advances. But doing so, we artificially cut nature in slices and we loose the view of complex interactions. Sure, there appears discontinuities, but by successive gradations and it depends on which space-time scale we refer to. Where is the circumference of an atom? Where is the edge of a galaxy? Where and when the differentiation between men and animals happened?
 
I suppose Alpha refers to emergent properties also. Yes, on one hand a sort of discontinuity can appear in individual cases, but for this to include the whole population of the specie it certainly takes several generations.
 
Example : is there a continuity between  the salt and what we’re talking about now? Should this topic be split and if yes where ?
 
Francois

[alphagruis]

Nobody is “instincto”, neither “primal dieter” nor vegetarian by birth! We eat “instincto” or whatever and there’s no such people as instinctos, paleo dieters or vegetarians: this is only diets we are experimenting or practicing for a fraction of our life and we are all homo sapiens (at least according to current knowledge). You are Susan, not "an instincto".

I can't see what is actually all this fuss about.

 I (as most likely many of us here) simply failed and still fail to see even remotely any relevance of the above comments on the very simple and  lucid statement of Susan that initiated it, namely:

The term "instincto" is linked with Guy-Claude Burger, his ideas and of course with his followers. But I'm a follower of myself and so I prefer to call myself an "instinctive raw fooder", a term which isn't linked with somebody.

This seems clear enough and doesn't need any fancy or abstruse philosophical considerations.

I add just a small comment on just one among the other examples of completely irrelevant nonsense :

I suppose Alpha refers to emerging functions also. Yes, on one hand a sort of discontinuity can appear in individual cases, but for this to include the whole population of the specie it certainly takes several generations.

There exists nothing like "emerging functions", this is a meaningless word association and so I certainly neither employed nor referred to it. Just the guru's new nonsense wording as I already pointed out before a few weeks ago.

  

[Iguana]

Nobody is “instincto”, neither “primal dieter” nor vegetarian by birth! We eat “instincto” or whatever and there’s no such people as instinctos, paleo dieters or vegetarians: this is only diets we are experimenting or practicing for a fraction of our life and we are all homo sapiens (at least according to current knowledge). You are Susan, not "an instincto".

I can't see what is actually all this fuss about.

 I (as most likely many of us here) simply failed and still fail to see even remotely any relevance of the above comments on the very simple and  lucid statement of Susan that initiated it, namely:
The term "instincto" is linked with Guy-Claude Burger, his ideas and of course with his followers. But I'm a follower of myself and so I prefer to call myself an "instinctive raw fooder", a term which isn't linked with somebody.
This seems clear enough and doesn't need any fancy or abstruse philosophical considerations.

May I explain once again what you fail to understand ? The “fuss” is that there’s no such specie as “instincto”. “Instincto” is just a way of eating, as you did eat for 6 or 7 years. Perhaps Susan discovered instinctive nutrition by herself, so that she can really follow herself? If you can’t see what this fuss is about, why do make more fuss of it? Don’t you have something more interesting to do?

I add just a small comment on just one among the other examples of completely irrelevant nonsense :
I suppose Alpha refers to emerging functions also. Yes, on one hand a sort of discontinuity can appear in individual cases, but for this to include the whole population of the specie it certainly takes several generations.
There exists nothing like "emerging functions", this is a meaningless word association and so I certainly neither employed nor referred to it. Just the guru's new nonsense wording as I already pointed out before a few weeks ago.

Yes, thanks to kindly mention that so that I can edit my erroneous word, a bad translation from a seldom used French wording. I meant emergent phenomenon or emergent properties, as you employed and referred to here  :  

Autrement dit, bien plus encore que pour la cuisson, il est ici capital de tester la robustesse de ton hypothèse « d’instinct » (difficile déjà à admettre par elle-même dans ce cadre) lorsqu’on abandonne le cadre du (néo)darwinisme pour la théorie bien plus appropriée de l’auto-organisation des systèmes complexes et des propriétés émergentes. Et là ça coince définitivement car la notion « d’instinct » même perd toute pertinence. Seul subsiste  en fait l’équilibre alimentaire ou c’est équivalent la santé comme propriété émergente du tout (organisme+environnement) et non une aptitude individuelle ou « instinct »

Il n'y a hélas par définition pas de principe d'organisation aussi simple qui régit l'équilibre alimentaire qui est un phénomène émergent, justement, comme la plupart des propriérés remarquables des systèmes complexes.
(…)
Le problème est hélas qu'il n'est par essence pas possible de corriger les choses car il y a là une barrière épistémologique fondamentale, une impossibilté à réduire un phénomène émergent à un principe aussi simple même approximativement.

[PaleoPhil]

There is salt in the blood of animals that normally would be eaten by traditional peoples, but not typically by moderners. So it's theoretically possible that this is something lacking in our Paleo-type diets. How much salt, I don't know. The closest thing I could find was http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sausages-and-luncheon-meats/1323/2. One 100g serving contains 28% DV for sodium.

This sketchy anonymous source claims that human blood contains sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate along with several chlorides, phosphates, calcium, and magnesium (http://www.allinterview.com/showanswers/1067.html).

[alphagruis]

May I explain once again what you fail to understand ? The “fuss” is that there’s no such specie as “instincto”. “Instincto” is just a way of eating, as you did eat for 6 or 7 years.

 Even this statement is finally nonsense since according to the guru himself he considered he has to teach me, at last, to use my nose properly and eat "instinctively" 

If you can’t see what this fuss is about, why do make more fuss of it? Don’t you have something more interesting to do?  

Just to warn the other forumers, have fun and point out the nonsense you post sometimes. Takes not more than 2 minutes

[Iguana]

Thanks. I acknowledge your friendly statement that I post nonsense sometimes only, so that not everything I post is nonsense. Who is "the guru", please ? Could you call him by his name, so that everyone can catch whom you refer to? Ah, he offended you because, of course, as a scientist you know very well how to use your nose and you practiced instinctive nutrition in the absolute best possible way. Sure, how could I have failed to understand that immediately?

 

[alphagruis]

Thanks. I acknowledge your friendly statement that I post nonsense sometimes only, so that not everything I post is nonsense. Who is "the guru", please ? Could you call him by his name, so that everyone can catch whom you refer to? Ah, he offended you because, of course, as a scientist you know very well how to use your nose and you practiced instinctive nutrition in the absolute best possible way. Sure, how could I have failed to understand that immediately?

 

Well, I'm afraid I have to replace my previous "sometimes" with "frequently".

Since what you didn't fail to do, at any rate, is to post immediately new nonsense since I never claimed even remotely to have practiced "instinctive nutrition" either in any "absolute best possible way" or in the guru's inspired holy way.

Again there are more things in heaven and on earth than "instincto".

[Iguana]

Again there are more things in heaven and on earth than "instincto".

Sure, I couldn’t agree more and I’ll go on right now with other activities than exchanging stupid posts with you.

[alphagruis]

Sure, I couldn’t agree more and I’ll go on right now with other activities than exchanging stupid posts with you.

Wise decision.