Bone Meal

[Coatue]

Is bone meal necessary to gain bone density on rpd or is raw animal products + raw plant food enough? I can't imagine needing bone meal given that it requires machinery to make it into a powder for it to be edible. This wouldn't have been around back in the day.

[djr_81]

It's not needed but some do it to hedge their bets.

[raw-al]

In prior posts some suggest getting a file or saw and making your own

[Michael]

As suggested, this topic has been discussed many times elsewhere on the forum so it should prove worthwhile searching for similar topics.  Particularly, you may want to read http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/raw-omni-plus-tooth-healing/ and the information in Lex's journal regarding his positive bone scans following a long-term carnivorous diet.

Personally, I've been eating this way for 10 years but do have receding gums causing me concern particularly as this is, potentially, indicative of bone loss.  This is far from being the common experience with others on the forum, however.  In my case, it could be due to previous heavy use of raw dairy, excessive fruit etc.

In hope of supplying complete bone matrix complex nutrients, I'm now embarking on a program of grinding raw bones to a powder (homemade bonemeal) as described elsewhere on the forum by Van.

[DeadRamones]

How about raw bone marrow? Doesn't that contain the most minerals out of all animal fats?

[raw-al]

...... Personally, I've been eating this way for 10 years but do have receding gums causing me concern particularly as this is, potentially, indicative of bone loss.  This is far from being the common experience with others on the forum, however.  In my case, it could be due to previous heavy use of raw dairy, excessive fruit etc.

I know this topic has been beat to death on this forum, but my experience is that fruit in any form leads to dental pain, canker sores, stomach ulcers, you name it. Fat seems to be the cure and butter and meat fat, especially pork fat works for me.

For receding gums I recommend either just rubbing your gums with your finger tips dipped in some kind of light vege oil or for that matter butter or animal fat, whatever you like, to stimulate blood circulation and always brush down so you push the skin down, never up and down. I also recommend giving up tooth paste and not brushing your teeth except for social occasions. Also (non paleo) but if it is a real problem then you might try some Vicco Vajradanti tooth powder which you rub your gums with your finger tips then gargle for a bit and hold in your mouth for say a minute or two. The powder is cheap at the Indian grocery shops.

[Michael]

I know this topic has been beat to death on this forum, but my experience is that fruit in any form leads to dental pain, canker sores, stomach ulcers, you name it.

Yes, I experience days of dental pain now anytime I indulge in even a little fruit!

Thanks for the other thoughts on receding gums raw-al.  I rarely brush my teeth now as I don't particularly feel the need.  When I do, I just use a little homemade toothpaste which revolves around food items such as coconut oil, peppermint oil, bicarb.  Thanks for the indian tooth powder suggestion.  I'll look into it.

How about raw bone marrow? Doesn't that contain the most minerals out of all animal fats?

Does it?  I wasn't aware of it containing much in the way of minerals but would be interested in any information you have on this DeadRamones?

[raw-al]

How about raw bone marrow? Doesn't that contain the most minerals out of all animal fats?

Just curious, how do you get the marrow out of the bone without cooking it?

[PaleoPhil]

I buy short chunks of marrow bones. I loosen one end a little with a knife and then press the marrow through.

[raw-al]

I buy short chunks of marrow bones. I loosen one end a little with a knife and then press the marrow through.

Phil, Excuse my ignorance. I was 23 year vege and don't know what a marrow bone is. Is that simply a bone large enough to have a central section where blood cells are created?

I tried once to clean some marrow out of a bone. Got zero.

[djr_81]

Phil, Excuse my ignorance. I was 23 year vege and don't know what a marrow bone is. Is that simply a bone large enough to have a central section where blood cells are created?

I tried once to clean some marrow out of a bone. Got zero.

Like these:

[raw-al]

OK, thanks

[PaleoPhil]

Some marrow bones have just hard marrow inside them. You need to look for ones that have soft marrow inside. Like those and these from http://huntgatherlove.com:



Whenever you want to see an image of something, you can use Google images. Search engines are your friend.

[Michael]

Just curious, how do you get the marrow out of the bone without cooking it?

On the rare occasion that I'm fortunate enough to source some marrow bones I use a selection of tools that I've found work brilliantly in obtaining the marrow.  I'll try to briefly outline my method.

Firstly, I'll have a little dig at each end with a small teaspoon to make the first impacting extraction as well as discovering which is going to be the best end to attack.  I may then have a little stab into the emerging whole with a closed, long pair of kitchen scissors, using it to go a little deeper and pick out a few more pieces.  When I've made a good indentation I then pull out the master implement - a 12 inch knife sharpening steel!  The length is perfect for marrow extraction and the rough edges do a wonderful job of scraping just the marrow from the cavity walls.  With the opposite end of the bone held tightly to a flat surface I insert the steel into the emerging hole and exert great pressure whilst moving it around and scraping the inside edges.  Continuing this motion it's eventually possible to literally 'push' out the fresh marrow in it's entirety.  Some bones are more difficult than others and some produce far greater bounty but I find this method infallible.

I hope that helps raw-al.

[PaleoPhil]

Michael, if you ask the butcher to chop the marrow bones into short chunks like in the images, which my local supermarket's butchers do for free if the bones aren't already chopped, then all that is needed is a second or two of loosening one end of the marrow with a small knife and then push on it from the other end and it all comes out cleanly in a couple of seconds. Poof! Easy.

[miles]

I've just had bones chopped in half when I've had them and managed to get everything out with a teaspoon... Using the handle end as well.

[Michael]

Phil and miles, thanks for your advice.  It does seem now that I am perhaps overcomplicating the issue somewhat!!    Unfortunately, my butcher/supplier is unwilling to cut them any smaller for me than they are already.  I think this was due to the time taken to cut them by hand, bone splinters getting into other meats etc.  It's difficult enough for me already to get any marrow bone (let alone any other grass-fed meats etc!) that I have no option but to placate any insistence they make.  It's most certainly a seller's market!! 

miles, do you manage to obtain grass-fed marrow easily?  I've virtually given up with a reliable source of marrow or suet which is why I'm back on the grass-fed butter!

[kurite]

Michael, have you tried oil pulling? It can do wonders for your teeth.

[Michael]

Thanks for the tip kurite.  I did experiment with it for a while about a year ago and am intending adding it back into my regime.  From what I gather, the benefits were attributable to using sesame oil only weren't they?  That's what I used originally.  I'm no longer keen on using any vegetable oils but have been trying it with a little coconut oil.  I've never noticed any benefits from the practice as yet but have probably not been sufficiently committed to it.

What are you personal experiences with it and what protocols were you following?

[PaleoPhil]

I've gotten better benefits from "oil pulling" raw suet than I have coconut oil. I think the fact that I have to chew the suet thoroughly first accounts for a lot of the dental benefits it provides.

[kurite]

Most use cold pressed sesame oil, Ive heard others use coconut oil with some benefits as well but sesame seems to be the most popular. Its best if you do it right when you wake up before putting anything else in your mouth. One tablespoon and swish for 15-20 minutes. Some people do it before bed but thats 40 minutes of oil pulling a day...

PaleoPhil, intertesting idea but does the suet actually melt? If it does than I could see it having more benefits than vegetable oils.

[kurite]

http://www.drrons.com/bone-calcium-from-grassfed-New-Zealand-cattle.htm
found this and got excited but then realized it had extra added nutrients.

[PaleoPhil]

Most use cold pressed sesame oil, Ive heard others use coconut oil with some benefits as well but sesame seems to be the most popular. Its best if you do it right when you wake up before putting anything else in your mouth. One tablespoon and swish for 15-20 minutes. Some people do it before bed but thats 40 minutes of oil pulling a day...

PaleoPhil, intertesting idea but does the suet actually melt? If it does than I could see it having more benefits than vegetable oils.

Actually, in my experience I find fats that are too liquid are less effective at cleaning the teeth and gums. Suet does become rather soft after a lot of chewing, to the point where it can be pulled through the larger gaps in the teeth, but I think the chewiness is part of why it's more effective than coconut oil in my experience. Chewing good quality suet leaves my teeth feel cleaner and more polished than oils--particularly if I chew it for an extended period as though it were chewing gum...but instead of losing its flavor, the flavor improves slightly and eventually a sort of pleasant tang develops in the area of the saliva glands and much saliva is produced, which is also beneficial to the teeth and gums. But perhaps your experience won't match mine. Can't be sure unless you try it, of course.

[kurite]

Actually, in my experience I find fats that are too liquid are less effective at cleaning the teeth and gums. Suet does become rather soft after a lot of chewing, to the point where it can be pulled through the larger gaps in the teeth, but I think the chewiness is part of why it's more effective than coconut oil in my experience. Chewing good quality suet leaves my teeth feel cleaner and more polished than oils--particularly if I chew it for an extended period as though it were chewing gum...but instead of losing its flavor, the flavor improves slightly and eventually a sort of pleasant tang develops in the area of the saliva glands and much saliva is produced, which is also beneficial to the teeth and gums. But perhaps your experience won't match mine. Can't be sure unless you try it, of course.

Sounds good almost done with my bottle of sesame oil so I will try it as soon as Im done.

[PaleoPhil]

And of course, chewed suet can't be pulled through smaller teeth gaps like liquid oils, but this doesn't seem to be the key factor in the cleaning and healing of teeth and gums in my case.

Good luck with whatever you try.