Author Topic: AV on radio on the web link  (Read 10811 times)

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Offline raw-al

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Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 02:53:08 am »
Not sure if you can get it as a rerun on that station....

Quiet interesting as it usually is with him.
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Offline Haai

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2010, 06:14:16 pm »
I just listened to the full 2 hrs.
A couple of interesting points:
-the tribe that Aajonus met in the Philippinnes that eat only fish, coconut cream and occasionally a banana or mango. He said many of them live up to 140 years old!

I guess the coconut cream provides adequate fat and the fish plenty of protein.

-cases of dairy allergies/intolerances (to casein or lactose etc) are very rare if the dairy is raw. He says that even in these rare cases, after three months of drinking half a cup of raw milk daily the allergy/intolerance will be gone.

He says the reason that people continue to have allergy/intolerance symptoms after replacing pasteurized and or homogenized dairy with raw dairy is because when non-raw milk was consumed casein molecules binded with fat molecules (if i remember correctly) to form crystals which are stored in the body. When this store became too high the symptoms of allergy occurred. It takes upto 3 months for these casein crystals to be detoxified/removed from the body at which point associated problems will be gone.

Tyler, I know you have experimented with dairy and raw dairy in the past and had many problems with it...did you try sticking with it for 3 months?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2010, 11:06:00 pm »
Aajonus's claims and explanation are, of course, deliberate lies. Allergies/intolerances towards raw dairy are THE no1 health-problem for RVAFers, given multiple reports.

As for me, I did raw dairy for 6 full months and was in an appallingly bad state of health as a direct result. I even tried experimenting with raw dairy  3 years later  and then 6 years into a rawpalaeodiet, and experienced the same sort of symptoms.

Anyway, in a way I'm glad that AV has resorted to such outright lies. Up till now, there have been various AV-apologists who have pretended that he no longer claims that it is physically impossible to be allergic to raw dairy. Such retarded, mendacious lies as the above prove that he is still woefully deluded on that subject.

As for the Phillipines longevity nonsense, the idea that simple HGs could live up to 140 years despite their harsh environments is just laughable. It's just AV's usual appeal to  those deluded by the Noble-Savage "theory".
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2010, 11:23:05 pm »
Name that Philippine tribe and I will go look for it.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2010, 11:53:16 pm »
Milk is a challenge for anyone to digest if it is cold. Due to this, if you drink it cold (according to the Ayurvedic texts) you will end up with undigested material (Ama) some of which will make it through the intestinal tract (etc) and circulates in the body. AMA is one of the major sources of disease.
My friend says that in Tibet sometimes kids would go over to a Yak and suckle if they were a bit thirsty. This is indeed the best way to have milk as it is body temperature.
AV clearly says not to drink milk cold in his books.

However he also says that he knows of a very small # of people who do not seem to be able to drink milk. The difficulty is that when he says that he cannot chase after everybody in the world to see if they just grab it out of the fridge. People are often in denial about their habits. The spouses generally know the truth.

Also Ayurveda says you should not drink milk with (meat, fruit, veges etc) anything else except for sweet things such as sugar or certain grains due to the differing digestive processes required for each.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2010, 12:22:50 am »
I should add to that, I am not saying that Aajonus is correct or that I believe everything that he says is golden.

I just find what he says to be fascinating and worth a second look.

Every diet concept has a hole in it somewhere and every author stretches the facts and it is fun to find the holes.

I mean saying we eat a paleo diet is a bit of a stretch. We go to a store/farmer to get our meat on our schedule, then we put it in the fridge and check to see if it has this nutrient or that, read "scientific studies" and eat a variety of animal/seafood/veges some of which we get mailed to us or we get at a health food store. Such a load of beans. We are no more paleo than the man in the moon. None of us have the slightest idea how the paleolithic man lived or ate. We take wild unsubstantiated guesses. :o ;) ;D
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Offline RawZi

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2010, 12:37:36 am »
Milk is a challenge for anyone to digest if it is cold. Due to this, if you drink it cold (according to the Ayurvedic texts) you will end up with undigested material (Ama) some of which will make it through the intestinal tract (etc) and circulates in the body. AMA is one of the major sources of disease.
My friend says that in Tibet sometimes kids would go over to a Yak and suckle if they were a bit thirsty. This is indeed the best way to have milk as it is body temperature.
AV clearly says not to drink milk cold in his books.

However he also says that he knows of a very small # of people who do not seem to be able to drink milk. The difficulty is that when he says that he cannot chase after everybody in the world to see if they just grab it out of the fridge. People are often in denial about their habits. The spouses generally know the truth.

Also Ayurveda says you should not drink milk with (meat, fruit, veges etc) anything else except for sweet things such as sugar or certain grains due to the differing digestive processes required for each.

    For myself I find all that to be true.  But I cannot even drink cold milk on an empty stomach without other foods at all without getting a stomach ache as soon as it hits my stomach.  I think it's that it has too much sugar.  I'm talking cow milk, not even A2.  Maybe I could drink cold goat or other milk, I don't know.  I haven't ever tried once.  I have drank goat milk, never cold though.

    Yeah, my spouse, I think because of cholesterol aversion maybe, disappeared all my butter and cream.  I mean all of it, as I had the cream off the top after extracting it to make butter.  It was probably an accident though, but I know he's scared cause my cholesterol is so high (my total serum cholesterol is the highest it's ever been now which is 200).  My HdL LdL ratio is still good though, very good.

    I think the fat in milk can help one tolerate the lactose.  Have you ever tried adding extra cream to whole milk?
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Offline raw-al

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2010, 01:03:31 am »
I think the fat in milk can help one tolerate the lactose.  Have you ever tried adding extra cream to whole milk?

My cholesterol (whichever the bad one is) doesn't even show up when the company nurse measures it. I used to eat lots of ghee, which is heated and clarified butter.

The milk we get has been lightly skimmed of the butter but I make the milkshake that AV suggests with cream, honey and coconut although we stopped juicing the coconut so we just chew on a piece.

I love cream and dairy in general but it has to be room temperature or better or I get indigestion.
Cheers
Al

Offline Haai

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2010, 03:32:23 am »
Name that Philippine tribe and I will go look for it.


When he started talking about this philippine tribe I immediately thought of you gs. He didn't actually name the tribe. Do you know any tribes that live in the Philippines?
I've done a bit of googling but can't find much detailed info about the diets of the tribes.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2010, 03:55:54 am »
AV has made up many lies to excuse the huge number of people who do very badly on raw dairy. The "cold" issue is simply bogus, as I and many other RVAFers have tried that method of warming up the milk to room- or body-temperature and it made little or no difference whatsoever to the harm done by the raw milk. Same goes for AV's other old-wives' tales re putting raw honey into raw milk supposedly to make it "OK", or the other notions re fermenting or the A2-protein issue. They're all a load of old bollocks as I eventually found to my cost.
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Offline michaelwh

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2010, 11:37:30 am »
In Pottenger's cat experiments, when cooked meat was compared to raw meat, a diet of 2/3 meat and 1/3 milk was used. When processed milk was compared to raw milk, a diet of 2/3 milk and 1/3 meat was used.

As long as the diet was raw, that cats remained in excellent health for many generations. The 2/3 milk 1/3 meat, and 2/3 meat 1/3 milk diets were both equally good at maintaining the cats' excellent health. From this, we can reasonably conclude that raw milk is a healthy food for cats, who have no evolutionary experience in consuming milk after weaning. So shouldn't raw milk be even more healthy for humans, who DO have some minimal evolutionary adaptations to dairy?

Yet we hear reports of people like Tyler who cannot tolerate raw dairy.

Why is this? Is it the result of degeneration due to the introduction of junk food into the human diet?

What about Pottenger's cats? How degenerated were they? I found some articles about the history of processed pet food:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:D_ViF4hpvYoJ:feline-nutrition.org/features/a-brief-history-of-commercial-pet-food+history+of+processed+cat+food&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

http://www.sojos.com/historyofpetfood.html

According to them, processed pet food became popular in the 1900s. Dog food came first, and cat food came later, in the 1930s.

Pottenger's cat experiment lasted from 1932 to 1942, so processed cat food was relatively new at that time. So Pottenger was starting out with reasonably healthy cats, who probably also had little to no prior exposure to processed milk.

In light of the above, I think that Aajonus' position has some truth to it -- raw milk is a healthy food for healthy mammals, but degenerated mammals may not be able to tolerate it, and in many cases it is possible to reverse this intolerance.

Note: I do not mean to specifically single out raw-dairy-intolerant people as being degenerated. We are ALL degenerated from the junk food that was introduced into the human diet, but this degeneration manifests itself in different ways in different people.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2010, 05:30:04 pm »
This is an absurd claim as there are plenty of dairy-intolerant people around the world who have not gone in for junk foods for most of their lives, going in for home-cooking or whatever.

More to the point, the Pottenger experiment was hopelessly flawed and wholly disohonest as its whole point was to try to mistakenly prove that raw cow's dairy was somehow supposedly healthy for cats. That was why they deliberately did not do an experiment comparing cats being fed on a 100% raw-meat-diet to cats being fed on mostly raw dairy as they knew the cats on the 1o00% raw meat diet would be much healthier.

The only thing that the Pottenger experiment proved was that if taurine wasn't present in the diet, cats quickly became degenerated to the point of infertility/birth-defects etc. and cooking was shown to destroy taurine in foods. That was it.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2010, 11:02:05 pm »
TD,
Sounds like a bit of a stretch. My understanding of the Pottinger experiment was like many other experiments that have catapulted humans to greater heights of understanding the world. It started out as a non-experiment. Similar to the Penicillin story it was an accidental discovery by someone who was looking for one thing and noticed something totally divergent to his work. He noticed that cats fed raw food thrived essentially and that with cats, milk was an important dietary resource.
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Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 02:41:10 am »
Not a stretch at all. Any decent scientist would naturally have included an experiment comparing cats fed on an all-raw-meat-diet to ones fed on 100% raw-milk diet. The very fact that this rather  obvious scientific experiment was never carried out can only be due to either Pottenger being hopelessly incompetent as a scientist, in which case much of his evidence is highly questionable, or an outright fraud who was, shamefully, trying to pretend that raw milk was as or more healthy for cats than raw meats.
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Offline michaelwh

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 08:32:40 am »
More to the point, the Pottenger experiment was hopelessly flawed and wholly disohonest as its whole point was to try to mistakenly prove that raw cow's dairy was somehow supposedly healthy for cats. That was why they deliberately did not do an experiment comparing cats being fed on a 100% raw-meat-diet to cats being fed on mostly raw dairy as they knew the cats on the 1o00% raw meat diet would be much healthier.

The only thing that the Pottenger experiment proved was that if taurine wasn't present in the diet, cats quickly became degenerated to the point of infertility/birth-defects etc. and cooking was shown to destroy taurine in foods. That was it.

Not a stretch at all. Any decent scientist would naturally have included an experiment comparing cats fed on an all-raw-meat-diet to ones fed on 100% raw-milk diet. The very fact that this rather  obvious scientific experiment was never carried out can only be due to either Pottenger being hopelessly incompetent as a scientist, in which case much of his evidence is highly questionable, or an outright fraud who was, shamefully, trying to pretend that raw milk was as or more healthy for cats than raw meats.

The claim is not that raw cow milk is a COMPLETE food for cats (it is too low in taurine), but that it is merely a HEALTHY food.

Analogy: You'll probably agree with me that raw fruit and raw meat are both healthy foods for humans, but that a diet of too much fruit and not enough meat leads to sub-optimal health. (I'm not trying to start an argument with zero-carbers. This is specifically addressed to Tyler who eats fruit).

I agree that Pottenger probably knew that a diet of too much raw cow milk, and not enough raw meat, did not lead to optimally healthy cats. The main focus of Pottenger's experiment was not the comparison of milk to meat, but the comparison of raw food to processed food. Pottenger wanted all cats to get at least some raw food (the idea being, that raw food may counter some of the negative effects of the processed food being tested, and slow down the degeneration). That's why he used mixed meat+milk diets, instead of all-meat or all-milk.  This was not some kind of conspiracy to hide the fact that meat is better than cow milk for cats.

Pottenger spent ten years doing experiments, which involved very many cats. If he wanted to compare 100% raw meat to 100% raw milk diets, he would have needed even more time and resources. He had to make some choices about what experiments to do.


This is an absurd claim as there are plenty of dairy-intolerant people around the world who have not gone in for junk foods for most of their lives, going in for home-cooking or whatever.

Some people report bad symptoms from raw dairy, even if they consume it in small amounts, much less than 1/3 of their diet. This has me wondering -- if raw dairy, even in small amounts, is so bad for humans, it should be even worse for cats, and other mammals, who have no evolutionary experience with dairy. But in feeding experiments where raw milk is added to a mammal's healthy diet, problems do not show up. I find this quite puzzling.

The only explanation that I can think of, is that raw-dairy-intolerance is caused by the unnatural environment in which humans have been living. Maybe it goes further back than the last few generations which grew up on industrial food. "home-cooking or whatever" may not be as bad as industrial food, but eating cooked whole foods (grain in particular) is unnatural, and I suspect that it leads to raw dairy intolerance.

If you do not agree with this, then how do you explain that raw dairy does not cause problems in animal feeding experiments?


Finally, I am appalled at the language you use to describe Pottenger. The man spent countless years contributing to human knowledge, and has many publications. Have you read all his scientific papers? I'm talking about the original papers, not the book "Pottenger's Cats". They probably contain detailed explanations and rationales for why he chose the diets that he did, and why he focused on the experiments that he did. Until you read those papers, you have no right to judge him, and call him "incompetent" or "fraud".

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2010, 05:40:59 pm »
The claim is not that raw cow milk is a COMPLETE food for cats (it is too low in taurine), but that it is merely a HEALTHY food.

Analogy: You'll probably agree with me that raw fruit and raw meat are both healthy foods for humans, but that a diet of too much fruit and not enough meat leads to sub-optimal health. (I'm not trying to start an argument with zero-carbers. This is specifically addressed to Tyler who eats fruit).

I agree that Pottenger probably knew that a diet of too much raw cow milk, and not enough raw meat, did not lead to optimally healthy cats. The main focus of Pottenger's experiment was not the comparison of milk to meat, but the comparison of raw food to processed food. Pottenger wanted all cats to get at least some raw food (the idea being, that raw food may counter some of the negative effects of the processed food being tested, and slow down the degeneration). That's why he used mixed meat+milk diets, instead of all-meat or all-milk.  This was not some kind of conspiracy to hide the fact that meat is better than cow milk for cats.

Pottenger spent ten years doing experiments, which involved very many cats. If he wanted to compare 100% raw meat to 100% raw milk diets, he would have needed even more time and resources. He had to make some choices about what experiments to do.

This is nonsense as there were only 2 possible, decent scientific experiments to be carried out on cats. One would have been to identify if raw was better than cooked, and the other obvious experiment would have been to determine which type of raw food was the most suitable food/diet for cats. Pottenger easily had the resources to do both experiments, and if he had had any scientific integrity at all he would have compared, at the very least, cats fed on a diet of raw milk and raw meats to cats fed on 100% raw meats. Instead, he deliberately compared cats fed on 1/3 raw milk and 2/3 raw meats and cats fed on 2/3 raw milk and 1/3 raw meats to cats fed on cooked/processed foods.That was an obviously dishonest attempt to justify the consumption of raw milk.

In a way, I can understand this approach as raw-meats were viewed by most in society  as being very dangerous/unhealthy in those days, so naturally Pottenger  was not pro-raw-meats and just wanted to prove that raw dairy was healthy for cats(the obvious(quite false) implication he was also trying to make was that if cats could do really well on milk from another animal(something he failed to prove), the same applied to humans.

Quote
Some people report bad symptoms from raw dairy, even if they consume it in small amounts, much less than 1/3 of their diet. This has me wondering -- if raw dairy, even in small amounts, is so bad for humans, it should be even worse for cats, and other mammals, who have no evolutionary experience with dairy. But in feeding experiments where raw milk is added to a mammal's healthy diet, problems do not show up. I find this quite puzzling.

The only explanation that I can think of, is that raw-dairy-intolerance is caused by the unnatural environment in which humans have been living. Maybe it goes further back than the last few generations which grew up on industrial food. "home-cooking or whatever" may not be as bad as industrial food, but eating cooked whole foods (grain in particular) is unnatural, and I suspect that it leads to raw dairy intolerance.

If you do not agree with this, then how do you explain that raw dairy does not cause problems in animal feeding experiments?

It does, though. The whole argument that animals can always do fine on milk from another animal is ridiculous when one realises that wolves' milk has so much casein in it that it would kill a human baby, for example(one reason why feral child legends like romulus and remus are often bogus). Cats can do better on cows' milk as cats' milk has more casein in it than human milk so they are better adapted to cows' milk than humans, as cows' milk also has plenty of casein. That said, Pottenger clearly did an appallingly biased series of experiments as raw cows' milk contains all sorts of substances such as hormones, designed to get a calf to eventually grow to adulthood in 2 years.

Similiarly, it's been pointed out by scientists that milks from some animals other than cows(eg;- horses) is "less worse" as they contain nutrient-profiles much closer to human milk. So allergies towards milk from horses is much rarer than allergies towards  cows' milk(albeit NOT nonexistent).


Quote
Finally, I am appalled at the language you use to describe Pottenger. The man spent countless years contributing to human knowledge, and has many publications. Have you read all his scientific papers? I'm talking about the original papers, not the book "Pottenger's Cats". They probably contain detailed explanations and rationales for why he chose the diets that he did, and why he focused on the experiments that he did. Until you read those papers, you have no right to judge him, and call him "incompetent" or "fraud".
  The fact is that Pottenger (deliberately) failed to include an experiment to compare the value of raw meat to raw milk as regards cats. This was an obvious experiment that was only ignored because Pottenger was trying(and failing) to prove the benefits of raw dairy.

Anyway, judging from other sources, Pottenger's study was very badly run:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1h.shtml
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Offline raw-al

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2010, 06:03:25 pm »
...... The fact is that Pottenger (deliberately) failed to include an experiment to compare the value of raw meat to raw milk as regards cats. This was an obvious experiment that was only ignored because Pottenger was trying(and failing) to prove the benefits of raw dairy.

Anyway, judging from other sources, Pottenger's study was very badly run:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1h.shtml
TD,
I think you might want to read your link in it's entirety. At the bottom of this link it says the following. Sections bolded as appropo by myself;

Pottenger's cat study was well-conducted for its day, but does not support the usual rawist conclusions

"Although a few of the details of the Pottenger cat study might not meet current research standards, it appears that at the time the work was done, Pottenger's study was probably a good one, perhaps even excellent. Despite the major handicap of lack of knowledge about the role of taurine in cat nutrition, Pottenger had the considerable foresight to hypothesize (pp. 19-20, from the reprint of Pottenger [1946]; italics below as in the reprint):

    What vital elements were destroyed in the heat processing of the foods fed the cats? The precise factors are not known. Ordinary cooking precipitates proteins,(7,8) rendering them less easily digested.(9)...

    It is our impression that the denaturing of proteins by heat is one factor responsible.

In summary. Thus we see that the suggestion in this paper--i.e., that the symptoms observed in Pottenger's studies likely were the symptoms of taurine deficiency--was expressed in a less precise form by Pottenger (the only form possible at the time of his research) as a possible explanation. Inasmuch as the above hypothesis of Pottenger appears to be substantially supported by research done 40-50 years later, that is a tribute to Pottenger and his skills as a scientist."
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2010, 06:12:44 pm »
I did notice that the 1st time I came across it. But, quite frankly, much of the scientific papers all those decades back were flawed with none of the rigorousness applied by modern scientists. The simple fact that bizarre things like cod-liver oil and raw cows' milk were used to feed cats is not scientific at all. Come to think of it, there are actually similiarly bogus scientific papers published even today which claim spurious nonexistent health-benefits for things like chocolates, as part of promotional campaigns, Pottenger was just one of the first of these promoters, with his mythical claims re raw dairy and cats.
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Offline reyyzl

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Re: AV on radio on the web link
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2010, 11:31:04 pm »
More to the point, the Pottenger experiment was hopelessly flawed and wholly disohonest as its whole point was to try to mistakenly prove that raw cow's dairy was somehow supposedly healthy for cats. That was why they deliberately did not do an experiment comparing cats being fed on a 100% raw-meat-diet to cats being fed on mostly raw dairy as they knew the cats on the 1o00% raw meat diet would be much healthier.

    I wonder if the video I have has that.
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