A day in the life of TylerDurden

[TylerDurden]

The simple fact is that berserkers were a routine way of life in Scandinavia at the time, so any routine use of psychoactives whatsoever would have been mentioned. And like I said, the time taken to experience the effects, the differing potency of of each individual's herbs and so on would make it unreliable at best. Also, searching for agaric mushrooms in the wild and finding enough to supply whole war-bands  of Viking berserkers all-year round doesn't make sense either.

Another point is that modern soldiers(in Vietnam etc.) have sometimes mentioned going into this adrenaline-induced  berserker state while in battle. And they couldn't all have been on drugs.

[William]

What exactly would be so bad if the Zulus, Celts, Siberians and Norse did use fly agaric for military purposes? Would that somehow undercut the spirituality or purity of their battles? Given that the mushroom was apparently mainly used in spiritual rituals, I don't understand how it could be seen that way.

Odhin is God for those who seek wisdom; a drug-induced state does not seem wise, and what little I know of North Europeans indicates that they valued sharp wits in battle.

What I get from Skallagrimssons epistle is the simultaneous operation of sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. Fascinating, and if possible would solve a lot of our problems.

[majormark]

Maybe they initially used psychoactive substances to ignite that state and than anchor it somehow (through rituals), in order to access it when it was needed.

[TylerDurden]

Maybe they initially used psychoactive substances to ignite that state and than anchor it somehow (through rituals), in order to access it when it was needed.

Don't see how. I mean psychoactive substances have a different effect on consciousness than simple release of hormones.

[majormark]

^ It's possible. I was thinking more along the lines of this: http://www.23nlpeople.com/brain/Amygdala.php

Of course they did could have had the state recollection happening using rituals.

[PaleoPhil]

Odhin is God for those who seek wisdom; a drug-induced state does not seem wise, and what little I know of North Europeans indicates that they valued sharp wits in battle.

What I get from Skallagrimssons epistle is the simultaneous operation of sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. Fascinating, and if possible would solve a lot of our problems.

I don't know what the answer is for sure, but I'm not convinced that it can't be Amanita muscaria, sorry. The presence of the Aminita muscaria mushroom in all Nordic lands (including Iceland) and much of the globe, their enormous size, the fact that its effects can be obtained simply by drinking the urine of someone else who has taken it (thus making it available to even more warriors and shamans), the fact that not all the warriors of an army had to use it--just the special berserker shock troops--the absence of a conclusive alternative explanation beyond speculation about non-assisted meditation and prayer, the acknowledgement by some of the proud Zulu people that their berserking warriors used fly agaric, and its spiritual use in respected rituals by Zulu, Siberian, Celtic, and Zarathrustan shamans, the possibility that it may even be the "Soma" referred to extensively in the Rigveda sacred text, and the fact that people still use it today to expand perception and even call it "Red Odin" (Red Angels of Soma, http://www.somashamans.com--they don't appear particularly credible, but more credible sources have come to the same conclusion...see "The Soma of the Rig Veda: What Was It?" http://www.jstor.org/pss/600096, by R. Gordon Wasson, author of Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality and M. S. Smith, "Amanita Muscaria as the Plant/God Soma of the Rigveda"), are too much evidence for me to rule out the possibility that it may have been one of several factors in the fearless and seemingly supernaturally strong shock troups of multiple traditional cultures.

Fly agaric reportedly does not normally addle the brain. On the contrary, most scientific and experienced shaman reports indicate the opposite--that it usually focuses the brain and increases perception (especially when trained how to use it properly by a knowledgeable shaman):

"The chemical, present in fly agaric -- a mushroom that can attract and kill flies -- is said to induce a state of expanded perception in those who ingest it." ("Day of the Zulu," http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_zulu/clues.html)

Although, the battle focus can reportedly become so powerful that some legendary accounts indicate that a berserker might have to be doused with water to stop fighting.

So we can agree to disagree. It's been an interesting discussion, though, thanks.



   "We have drunk Soma [fly agaric tea?] and become immortal; we have attained the light, the Gods discovered.
    Now what may foeman's malice do to harm us? What, O Immortal, mortal man's deception?"

--Rigveda (8.48.3)

[William]

Without a common perception of who what where when why a particular God is, we are like dog chasing its tail.

When the Zulu encountered the sickly and shrunken cousins of the Norse, the Zulu got their head handed to them, so not a fair example. I don't think there are any.

[jessica]

this discussion is particularly interesting to me because it seems that you guys have not had experiences with eating mushrooms(not the culinary type!)
i must say that any time i have eaten psilocybin mushrooms i have definitely communed with gods, seen the light and been delighted with a feeling of endless energy.  these feelings have definitely affirmed multiple times by myself and friends.  i have also eaten an EXTREMELY small amount of poisonous amanita mushrooms and although i thought i was dying(maybe i was, high fever for weeks, extreme spinal pain and headache) my perception of vibration(light and sound) was so ridiculously animated i can only imagine if i would have had the heightened amount of energy from non poisonous mushroom and also this almost clairvoyent perception of vibration i might have been invincible

having said all of this mushroom hold my highest regards as pathways to enlightenment when they are used with respect and prudence , which is not to say that it cannot be attained without their use

[TylerDurden]

One of the things that really pisses me off is the absurd notion within a part of the RVAF community that we are all negatively affected by trace amounts of heavy metals. This heavy-metals scam is constantly used by PETA-activists and the like to try to get us not to eat seafood, and it's totally bogus in the light of the very long-term Seychelles study and other sources I've cited. What is truly satanic , though, is that this whole bogus theory re mercury etc. has caused tragedy and false hope among parents with children born with various conditions like autism, giving them to erroneously believe that expensive treatment re chelation or whatever will eventually cure their child's problems. There was a recent case, mentioned in today's Daily Telegraph, about a single mother who'd been misled into believing that her daughter could be cured of her cerebral palsy by getting rid of some mythical heavy metals in her body, causing tragedy.

[TylerDurden]

Another thing that irks me is the dreadful presence of supermarkets, as mentioned in another thread. I urge people to avoid buying food from supermarkets as much as humanly possible as you'll otherwise be ensuring that your food-choices/variety  in the future will be greatly reduced. Indeed, it's even a good idea to boycott the larger, grassfed organic farms as they often have much lower standards than one would expect.

[TylerDurden]

One of the rather less appealing aspects of past hunter-gatherer tribes was their tendency to have very unpleasant rite-of-puberty rituals, the most common one being male circumcision. Here is a very funny(and yet disturbing)  description of the various numerous absurd excuses given over the years by physicians who wanted to promote male circumcision as a common practice(the only one that has any truth to it is the claim re blunting sensitivity):-

"There is no benefit to circumcision. It was started as a means to desensitize the penis to prevent boys from masturbating. Many false benefits have been claimed in an attempt to keep the practice alive. Male Circumcision is now illegal in most European countries because it is sexual child abuse.

CLAIMS OF REASONS FOR CIRCUMCISION IN THE USA (history):
1832: prevents nocturnal emissions
1845: prevents masturbation
1855: prevents syphilis
1865: cures epilepsy
1870: cures epilepsy
1870: prevents spinal paralysis
1871: Jews are immune to masturbation
1873: cures bed wetting
1875: cures curvature of the spine
1875: cures paralysis of the bladder
1875: cures clubfoot
1879: cures nocturnal seminal emissions
1879: curse abdominal neuralgia
1881: cures eye problems
1886: prevents crossed eyes
1888: prevents masturbating
1890: cures blindness
1890: cures deafness
1890: cures dumbness
1891: "foreskin constitutes a harbor for filth"
1891: "foreskin is a constant source of irritation"
1891: conduces to masturbation
1891: adds to the difficulties of sexual continence
1894: circumcising Blacks prevents them from raping White women
1894: cures urinary incontinence
1894: cures rectal incontinence
1900: needed to desensitize the penis
1901: needed to desensitize the penis
1902: foreskin causes epilepsy
1914: Dr. Abraham L Wolbarst demands compulsory circumcision
1914: prevents tuberculosis
1926: prevents penile cancer.
1930: Dr. Norton Henry Bare claims that he has cured a boy of epilepsy by circumcising him
1932: prevents penile cancer
1935: promotes chastity
1941: blunts sexual sensitivity
1941: foreskin must be forcibly retracted and scrubbed daily
1942: prevents prostate cancer
1949: prevents venereal disease
1949: prevents cancer of the tongue
1949: elimination of circumcisions in the United Kingdom
1951: Abraham Ravich invents the falsehood that circumcision prevents cervical cancer in women.
1953: creates immunity to all physical illness
1953: creates immunity to all mental illness
1954: prevents cervical cancer in women
1969: cures masturbation
1969: cures nervousness
1971: prevents cancer of the bladder
1971: prevents cancer of the rectum
1973: "all who disagree with circumcision are mentally ill"
1985: prevents urinary tract infections
1986: prevents AIDS
1988: prevents strept throat
1989: Edgar J. Schoen declares circumcision is necessary
1991: Edgar J. Schoen tries and fails to convince European countries to institute mass circumcision.
1991: Aaron J. Fink declares mass circumcision is necessary to prevent sand from getting under soldiers' foreskins.
1993: Gerald N. Weiss declares that Langerhands cells in the foreskin lead to HIV infection.
1997: Edgar J. Schoen tries and fails once again to convince European countries to institute mass circumcision.
2003: Edgar J. Schoen steps up pressure on American Academy of Pediatrics to reverse its policy on circumcision, claiming that circumcision prevents AIDS."
Source(s):
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.o…
http://www.nocirc.org/
http://www.circumstitions.com/
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

[Nicola]

Sorry to change the subject but I am still trying to make my/a picture of human existence with exercise and paleo digestion

<sup>Today, I'm eating a very large bag of raw mussels. Tomorrow, some raw marrow(2 bones of many inches length(8?) and maybe a little raw wild hare.

Raw marrow is very satiating and I eat a lot of it. As for raw mussels, I eat something like 100-200 of them in one go(over 4 hours), and, no, they work fine re digestion.</sup>

Can you remember how much and when (most water during the day or with/after the meal) you drank on both days? Do you drink more because others say we should or do you only drink when thirsty? Do you ever feel bloated and do you believe that your "discharge" is normal (what ever this may be?)? Don't you ever have runny "discharges" after eating just mussels and the next day just marrow?

I still do not understand why muscle fat gives me a "wider" intestine and can even make me feel sick at night (perhaps also because of the water - I drink many, many hours after a meal; thirsty or not!) and suet makes me feel cut/tight and I never feel sick at night.

I feel more than you because of riding, running and swimming; I can cheat - it all comes back in the end

Perhaps you and others would rid a different journey with different activities? Do you run?

Nicola

[TylerDurden]

I drink a little more mineral water than I need re thirst. Other than that, I have no digestive issues re raw meats/raw mussels or anything else(ecept non-rawpalaeo foods, of course).

[William]

One of the rather less appealing aspects of past hunter-gatherer tribes was their tendency to have very unpleasant rite-of-puberty rituals, the most common one being male circumcision.

AFAIK only one group ever did that - the stated reason was to be visibly different from all others after death, so that their myopic God could sort them out.
Not paleo.

[Nicola]

I drink a little more mineral water than I need re thirst. Other than that, I have no digestive issues re raw meats/raw mussels or anything else(ecept non-rawpalaeo foods, of course).

Thanks for all the detail - you shouldn't go to so much trouble...you could have just mentioned "I drank/drink about... the day / after the meal. I am asking because you mentioned once that on some days you don't drink!

Forget it; I'm Swiss and reading your quote about the Italien vs. the Swiss...

[goodsamaritan]

One of the rather less appealing aspects of past hunter-gatherer tribes was their tendency to have very unpleasant rite-of-puberty rituals, the most common one being male circumcision. Here is a very funny(and yet disturbing)  description of the various numerous absurd excuses given over the years by physicians who wanted to promote male circumcision as a common practice(the only one that has any truth to it is the claim re blunting sensitivity):-

"There is no benefit to circumcision. It was started as a means to desensitize the penis to prevent boys from masturbating. Many false benefits have been claimed in an attempt to keep the practice alive. Male Circumcision is now illegal in most European countries because it is sexual child abuse.

CLAIMS OF REASONS FOR CIRCUMCISION IN THE USA (history):
1832: prevents nocturnal emissions
1845: prevents masturbation
1855: prevents syphilis
1865: cures epilepsy
1870: cures epilepsy
1870: prevents spinal paralysis
1871: Jews are immune to masturbation
1873: cures bed wetting
1875: cures curvature of the spine
1875: cures paralysis of the bladder
1875: cures clubfoot
1879: cures nocturnal seminal emissions
1879: curse abdominal neuralgia
1881: cures eye problems
1886: prevents crossed eyes
1888: prevents masturbating
1890: cures blindness
1890: cures deafness
1890: cures dumbness
1891: "foreskin constitutes a harbor for filth"
1891: "foreskin is a constant source of irritation"
1891: conduces to masturbation
1891: adds to the difficulties of sexual continence
1894: circumcising Blacks prevents them from raping White women
1894: cures urinary incontinence
1894: cures rectal incontinence
1900: needed to desensitize the penis
1901: needed to desensitize the penis
1902: foreskin causes epilepsy
1914: Dr. Abraham L Wolbarst demands compulsory circumcision
1914: prevents tuberculosis
1926: prevents penile cancer.
1930: Dr. Norton Henry Bare claims that he has cured a boy of epilepsy by circumcising him
1932: prevents penile cancer
1935: promotes chastity
1941: blunts sexual sensitivity
1941: foreskin must be forcibly retracted and scrubbed daily
1942: prevents prostate cancer
1949: prevents venereal disease
1949: prevents cancer of the tongue
1949: elimination of circumcisions in the United Kingdom
1951: Abraham Ravich invents the falsehood that circumcision prevents cervical cancer in women.
1953: creates immunity to all physical illness
1953: creates immunity to all mental illness
1954: prevents cervical cancer in women
1969: cures masturbation
1969: cures nervousness
1971: prevents cancer of the bladder
1971: prevents cancer of the rectum
1973: "all who disagree with circumcision are mentally ill"
1985: prevents urinary tract infections
1986: prevents AIDS
1988: prevents strept throat
1989: Edgar J. Schoen declares circumcision is necessary
1991: Edgar J. Schoen tries and fails to convince European countries to institute mass circumcision.
1991: Aaron J. Fink declares mass circumcision is necessary to prevent sand from getting under soldiers' foreskins.
1993: Gerald N. Weiss declares that Langerhands cells in the foreskin lead to HIV infection.
1997: Edgar J. Schoen tries and fails once again to convince European countries to institute mass circumcision.
2003: Edgar J. Schoen steps up pressure on American Academy of Pediatrics to reverse its policy on circumcision, claiming that circumcision prevents AIDS."
Source(s):
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.o…
http://www.nocirc.org/
http://www.circumstitions.com/
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

Filipino women are brainwashed the same to require that her man be circumsized.  So any sane Filipino teenage boy who wants to get a woman will undergo circumcision... besides that,  his own MOTHER requires that her sons be circumsized.  Filipinas are into cleanliness.  No "kupal" -- that cheesy smelly yucky stuff...  Circumcision guarantees no "kupal"... and calling someone "kupal" is a swear word.

What can I say, Philippines is a circumcision crazy country.

[TylerDurden]

Filipino women are brainwashed the same to require that her man be circumsized.  So any sane Filipino teenage boy who wants to get a woman will undergo circumcision... besides that,  his own MOTHER requires that her sons be circumsized.  Filipinas are into cleanliness.  No "kupal" -- that cheesy smelly yucky stuff...  Circumcision guarantees no "kupal"... and calling someone "kupal" is a swear word.

What can I say, Philippines is a circumcision crazy country.

It's odd because other than the Muslim minority, the Phillipines is supposed to be mostly Roman Catholic and the latter frown heavily on the practice.

[TylerDurden]

Thanks for all the detail - you shouldn't go to so much trouble...you could have just mentioned "I drank/drink about... the day / after the meal. I am asking because you mentioned once that on some days you don't drink!

  True enough, occasionally there are days where I don't drink at all.

[goodsamaritan]

It's odd because other than the Muslim minority, the Phillipines is supposed to be mostly Roman Catholic and the latter frown heavily on the practice.

Muslims and Christian and otherwise Filipinos are for circumcision.  It's not a religious issue.  It's a cultural hygiene issue.  "Kupal" - the smell, the cheesiness - is a big big deal.  Much like Filipinos taking a shower 2x a day and taking a shower before and after sex.

[PaleoPhil]

It's odd because other than the Muslim minority, the Phillipines is supposed to be mostly Roman Catholic and the latter frown heavily on the practice.

Interesting. I was raised a Catholic and learned the Catechism, but hadn't heard of opposition to circumcision from among the Roman Catholic hierarchy until you mentioned it. According to Wikipedia, the 11th Council of Florence did denounce it in 1442, possibly in response to Coptic Christians. However...

"The modern Roman Catholic Church maintains a neutral position on the practice of non-religious circumcision, and has never addressed the issue of infant circumcision specifically."[27] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_male_circumcision#The_Roman_Catholic_Church

[TylerDurden]

Oh, I agree that the RC Church hasn't concentrated heavily on the issue(especially not recently, as they don't want to upset rival religions). However, it's no coincidence that the US rates for male circumcision have been dropping because of recent immigration of Catholic Hispanics in the last few decades, for example. Also, the modern trend in the last 150 years re recommending male circumcision re blunting sensitivity etc. was mainly a Protestant Anglo-Saxon concept.

[TylerDurden]

Ah the snow has fallen again in London, like it did last February as I recall. London is lucky to get any snow at all, most winters, so this is most welcome. I feel so much more alive in winter than in summer and sometimes wish that that theory that we're entering a new Ice-Age might be true.

[RawZi]

    You are fortunate right now.  It's unseasonably warm by me, no wind or anything.  It is a little cool, but no where near snow, and little to no humidity.

[TylerDurden]

The Daily Telegraph had an article describing how grains were eaten by hominids up to c. 100,000 years ago. If this is the case, then we have an extra argument to use against cooked-foodists. After all, cooked-foodists have been stating for ages that since cooking was invented at least 250,000 years ago(or plus, depending on the advocate) that we must now be fully adapted to cooked foods. Yet, it is largely  accepted, albeit very reluctantly, that humans haven't really adapted to grains or dairy re statistics, so if grains were consumed for a 100,000 years and we still have people with gluten-intolerance(most of them hidden and not with specifically diagnosed  symptoms), then it can be just as easily and convincingly claimed that we haven't really adapted to cooked foods either, despite eating them for a couple of hundred thousand years. I'll mention this point next time I update rawpaleodiet.com

[PaleoPhil]

Good point, Tyler. As the dates of so many things keep getting pushed back farther and farther, and as I learn more about nonhuman animals like gorillas, chimpanzees, monkeys, tarsiers, giant pandas, wolves, etc., it's looking to me like it's not so much when a species first starts eating a food, it's how long it's been eating it as a staple and how well adapted its physiology is to digesting it.

Some foods seem harder for certain species to adapt to than others. For example, some plant foods appear to be very difficult for carnivores and certain omnivores to adapt to. Giant pandas have been eating bamboo for two million years, and its ancestor ate bamboo before that ("Remains Of Earliest Giant Panda Discovered," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070618174710.htm), but giant pandas are still are not well adapted to it. So a bamboo diet is not a healthy diet for them, despite eating it for millions of years. Another example is the difficulty that humans have had adapting to grains, although grains have never been eaten by humans in general to the extent that giant pandas eat bamboo.