A day in the life of TylerDurden

[RawZi]

All the sushi I buy generally comes with rice.

    Some restaurants over here have a buffet.  I got one recently.  I took the rice off.  I don't like wasting, but it's their fault for not serving sashimi.

[cherimoya_kid]

All the sushi I buy generally comes with rice.

Maybe it's because the low-carb craze hasn't hit England like it has the US.  I can't think of any other reason.

[TylerDurden]

I've always been keen to point out the need for variety on this kind of diet, but was, admittedly, more active on finding new kinds of raw foods, in my first 3 years of diet. I was so spoiled after that point what with access to raw wild hare carcasses and the like that I didn't feel the need to expand my range. However, on Sunday's farmer's market I found a new fruit I'd never heard of before:- medlars. They taste really good but, oddly, need to be eaten in rotten form so as to be soft and tasty enough.

[RawZi]

Is it a berry?

[alphagruis]

No, it's not a berry but a pome fruit like appels or pears. Very interesting tasty fruit, easy to grow organically, almost wild and ripeness in november.

[TylerDurden]

One of the most annoying cultural traits in the UK is the notion that one cannot eat out alone in restaurants. It's considered very strange indeed, for some absurd reason. I recently tried eating raw meat kitfo in an Ethiopian restaurant and got strange stares(it seems they only offered it in cooked form) but it was worse as I'd tried this idea when on my own. I don't know why that is. It makes no sense.

[TylerDurden]

I've been doing some vague research on "berserkergang" which is an interesting aspect which might well have been practised by our palaeo ancestors(I've never thought that diet was the answer to everything and have always thought that exercise etc. was also important). Here are a couple of links:-

http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/berserk.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker

[RawZi]

It's considered very strange indeed, for some absurd reason. I recently tried eating raw meat kitfo in an Ethiopian restaurant and got strange stares(it seems they only offered it in cooked form) but it was worse as I'd tried this idea when on my own.

    Here I think it depends which state or area of the country.  In some places I can go into an Ethiopian restaurant, and if I tell them to treat me as one of their countrymen, they will serve me raw no problem in most cases, but I also have not eaten alone in a place like this.  There is one Ethiopian cafe, that just does not serve raw meat, as it is situated in a medical building.  There I can only get fresh made fruit salad, or fresh green salad makings and I can eat alone no problem.  Other parts, they will promise raw meat, but will deliver otherwise and then give strange looks.  At least they don't charge for there mistake though, but it is a real bother when you drive far to get there then have to wait while they cook it and be stuck with nothing.  In this case too I was not alone.

    How was your kitfo?

[TylerDurden]

    Here I think it depends which state or area of the country.  In some places I can go into an Ethiopian restaurant, and if I tell them to treat me as one of their countrymen, they will serve me raw no problem in most cases, but I also have not eaten alone in a place like this.  There is one Ethiopian cafe, that just does not serve raw meat, as it is situated in a medical building.  There I can only get fresh made fruit salad, or fresh green salad makings and I can eat alone no problem.  Other parts, they will promise raw meat, but will deliver otherwise and then give strange looks.  At least they don't charge for there mistake though, but it is a real bother when you drive far to get there then have to wait while they cook it and be stuck with nothing.  In this case too I was not alone.

    How was your kitfo?

  Not bad, lots of dough involved, unfortunately.

[RawZi]

  Not bad, lots of dough involved, unfortunately.

    The injera?  I never made kitfo.  I order the gorrad gorrad.  It's chunks of meat, instead of grinding it. 

    Funny, when I get it raw they give me a huge serving and not expensive.  The place that lied and it wasn't raw at all, theirs was a small portion served.  I always get my gorrad gorrad with less spice, and olive oil instead of butter for toasting the spice.

    I'm afraid of ordering it with no spice at all; because maybe people will stare too much, even though they have told me they will do it for me this way.  The spices almost necessitate the injera though, or the herbed aib. 

    I don't know if you do this, if you've had gorrad gorrad, but I wipe the spices off each piece onto the ijera they leave at the table.

[TylerDurden]

        Funny, when I get it raw they give me a huge serving and not expensive.  The place that lied and it wasn't raw at all, theirs was a small portion served.  I always get my gorrad gorrad with less spice, and olive oil instead of butter for toasting the spice.

What I find amusing is how often I go to restaurants or farmers' markets and find that the highest quality raw food is often the cheapest of those available. I've had amazingly cheap steak tartare and raw wild hare carcasses at a fraction of the price of 100% grassfed/organic beef, and so on.

[RawZi]

What I find amusing is how often I go to restaurants or farmers' markets and find that the highest quality raw food is often the cheapest of those available. I've had amazingly cheap steak tartare and raw wild hare carcasses at a fraction of the price of 100% grassfed/organic beef, and so on.

    I just ate local pasture lamb heart and kidney today and shared with my cats.  Heart and kidney are so much less expensive than other meat and more nutritious too!  Raw meat Should be less expensive in a restaurant.  They don't have to slave over a hot stove.  It should be their thank you to us for that.  Steak tartare here by me Is expensive.

[PaleoPhil]

... I recently tried eating raw meat kitfo in an Ethiopian restaurant and got strange stares(it seems they only offered it in cooked form) but it was worse as I'd tried this idea when on my own. I don't know why that is. It makes no sense.

Interesting. Only thing I can think of is that they're shocked that an Englishmen would eat raw meat, or perhaps some urbanites in Ethiopia have a low opinion of raw meat (although I have seen a video in which it was served in an urban market there--albeit in a poor area)?

I've been doing some vague research on "berserkergang" which is an interesting aspect which might well have been practised by our palaeo ancestors(I've never thought that diet was the answer to everything and have always thought that exercise etc. was also important). ....

I'm familiar with the phenomenon of the berserker, which most traditional societies had (one of the things that helped warriors go "berserk" was certain plants with properties that stimulated adrenalin, strength, fearlessness, etc.), likely back to ancient African, and I'm a fan of exercise, but I'm missing your point. I saw a fascinating documentary in which one combatant took a traditional Zulu berserker concoction and fought a fellow who had not, and the berserker was able to easily overpower the non-berserker, and his strength measurements increased dramatically, IIRC.

BTW, have you heard of the "salmon leap"?

Steak tartare is exhorbitant here, and the portion is skimpy.

[RawZi]

BTW, have you heard of the "salmon leap"?

Steak tartare is exhorbitant here, and the portion is skimpy.

    Skimpy here too.  If I don't order two I'll starve.

    What's the salmon leap?

[PaleoPhil]

Legend has it that berserkers performed amazing, seemingly "superhuman" feats of strength, ability and daring, and the science appears to show that some amazing feats of strength and combat ability are possible when taking the appropriate berserker ingredients before a fight. The salmon leap was a legendary warrior skill that "Celtic" warriors used and that would have been best-suited to lightly-armored berserkers. It also seems like it would require superhuman abilities (although I imagine the leapers might have used the backs of comrades to accomplish it, but that's pure speculation on my part). Apparently, they leaped horizontally over the enemy shield wall (which was difficult to penetrate head-on), and either hacked them from above as they sailed over, or attacked their exposed backs after landing.

I can imagine that the Romans would have been surprised and terrified the first time the Gauls used berserkers and salmon leaps on them (and a documentary I watched recently claimed that the Romans fled in panic from the Gauls in their first major battle). However, berserkers and salmon leapers didn't prevent the Romans from eventually annihilating the Gaulic armies in later campaigns.

Below are some of the references from my files. Unfortunately, since the Celtic peoples didn't traditionally use writing, much of current knowledge is based on legend. When I first heard of the salmon leap, I figured it must be mostly legend, but then when some of the stuff started coming out about the amazing feats and abilities of even recent HGs (such as reported in Manthropology), and I remembered about the ability of a combatant after taking Zulu berserker ingredients in a TV science show, I started to think that the salmon leap might have been fully possible and looked into it some more.

Scathach
"Choosing the Gods," http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/deagusan.htm

Scathach, "She Who Strikes Fear". The Shadow self that walks the Mists. The Irish/Scottish Goddess of martial arts. The Destroyer aspect of the Dark Goddess. A great sword warrior and instructor. Native to the Isle of Skye. Teacher of CuChulainn. Patroness of martial arts, prophecy, blacksmiths and magic. She lived on the otherside of a bottomless pit or "void" that could only be approached by making the "salmon leap" onto her Magical bridge. She taught CuChulainn the "feat of the Gae Bolga", a spear that was thrown with the foot through a stream of water. ...


The Salmon's Leap Hoax?
http://www.oghme.com/cucuc/post/006-the-Hero-s-Hog-Leap?lang=en&navlang=en

Cuchulainn (the warrior our young Setanta will one day become) uses this technique at least  three times, in the text called "the  wooing of Emer" (recorded in the manuscript called the Leabhar na hUidre).

§68 : Cuchulaind then tried three times to cross the bridge, and could not do it. The men jeered at him. Then he grew mad and jumped on the head of the bridge, and made the hero's salmon leap so that he got on its midst. And the other head of the bridge had not yet fully raised itself when he reached it, and threw himself from it, and (...)

§77 : He (Cuchulainn) noticed it and leapt the hero's salmon-leap up again, and struck the woman's head off (so very Cuchulainnish !)
§86 : He then arrived at the rath of Forgall, and jumped the hero's salmon-leap across the three ramparts, so that he was on the ground of the dun.

.... Also read a few things about the leap being used in battle to go OVER an opponents shield (very useful fighting rank and file fighters such as the Romans). So a high flat forward long jump landing on your feet behind the enemies front shield wall? Could be a possibility. I could also see how this could be used for crossing a gap. And it could be viewed as something similar to how a salmon would look when leaping up a waterfall.


The Salmon Leap
http://members.tripod.com/~Tuan_o_greenfields/salmonleap.html

The Salmon Leap, one of the most frequently mentioned feats of the Ancient Gael. This feat is not such a difficult one, but the strength and skill of the Warrior performing it are what matter.

The Salmon Leap is a graceful leap, executed much like a Swan Dive over a great horizontal distance.

The difference is that the left arm with the Targe firmly in place should be held close to the body so as to afford maximum protection when the Leap ends in a combat posture, face to face with the enemy.

The right arm, carrying either a Spear or a Sword should be extended out and back with the weapon carried high.

To begin the leap on the run it is carried out in the same manner as The Long Jump, with which all who have participated in Track and Field meets will be familiar.

From a standing position, it is carried out like a Standing Long Jump.

The Warrior should accomplish the highest, longest possible arc and accompany the leap with a sufficiently terrifying War Cry.

Credit
The Late Cian Mac Grainne


Mayo Remain Defiant After Galway's Sammon Leap
Monday, July 14, 2008
http://spailpin.blogspot.com/2008/07/mayo-remain-defiant-after-galways.html

One of the great feats of gaiscíocht, or acts of heroism, of the mythical Irish warriors was the salmon leap. The warrior had to be able to leap an opponent’s shield in order to hack off the opponent’s head from above, what modern marketing consultants would consider thinking outside the envelope.


I’ve read about Cú Chulainn’s training with Scáthach. What is this “Salmon Leap” or the “sword feat”? Is there a Celtic Martial Art form?
http://www.paganachd.com/faq/intermediate.html#martialarts

....The “Salmon Leap” is one of the cleasa (“Feats” or “Tricks”) said to have been known by Cú Chulainn prior to arriving on the Isle of Skye, where he traveled to pursue training with Scáthach (a renowned teacher of martial arts, said to have a school on Skye). He makes use of the leap in his “audition”, as it were, to her for instruction. It is also one of the most commonly reported “Feats” of the Irish heroes, though there were other impressive cleasa as well. Classical commentators, in discussing their battles against the Gauls, noted that the Celtic peoples would leap over the shields of their opponents. The “Salmon Leap”, it seems, was simply learning high jumping techniques and practicing them until the warrior could jump up in the air higher than most.

....

For a much more detailed article on this subject see: Celtic Martial Arts by C. Lee Vermeers.

[TylerDurden]

Never heard of the salmon leap before. As regards berserkergang, it seems they got themselves into that state via trances/religious experiences not via drugs/herbs, as the herbs cited did not even grow in places like Iceland where berserkers were common.

[PaleoPhil]

Never heard of the salmon leap before.

Pretty neat, eh?

As regards berserkergang, it seems they got themselves into that state via trances/religious experiences not via drugs/herbs, as the herbs cited did not even grow in places like Iceland where berserkers were common.

Why not ask me some questions now and then instead of reflexively contradicting so much of what I post? I think it would enable improved communication and sharing and thereby promote learning and cooperation. I was using berserker in the more cross-cultural general sense rather than the narrow sense of the literal Nordic etymological origin of the word:

The word "berserker" today applies to anyone who fights with reckless abandon and disregard to even his own life (Berserker, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker)

And to that general definition I would add that seemingly "superhuman" feats of strength and fearlessness are commonly associated, through legend, history and now science to berserkers.

Multiple cultures across the globe had berserkers, not just the Nordic peoples from whom the name derives, and the general phenomenon of berserkers long predates Nordic cultures, with the Zulu berserker phenomenon that I cited and that was studied being just one example of many. One reason I mentioned the salmon leap, and the reason I thought of it when you brought up berserkergang, is that it was a berserker-type feat. Cuchulainn is a legendary warrior famous for using the salmon leap and is considered a classic example of a berserker.

Parallels in other cultures
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker)

Among the Irish, Cúchulainn acted in the 'battle frenzy', or 'contortion', and many other famous Irish warriors from the pre-Christian period became possessed and frenzied. They are described in texts such as The Tain as foaming at the mouth and not calming down after battle until doused with cold water.

Similar behaviour is described in the Iliad, where warriors who are "possessed" by a god or goddess exhibit superhuman powers.

In historical times, the Spartan warrior Aristodemus is mentioned as acting with a berserker-like fury at the Battle of Plataea, to redeem himself from accusations of having acted with cowardice at Thermopylae.

Berserk behavior is also similar to the Amok frenzy described among Moro tribesmen in the Philippines and among other tribes in Malaysia.

Here is some more on the connection between psychoactive substances and berserkering (bear in mind that trances and religious experiences were often assisted with psychoactive substances, although rhythmic instruments and other means can achieve the same thing more subtly, and most armies had rhythmic or noisy instruments of some sort that could assist in whipping up warriors into a frenzy), including among Norsemen:

Theories on the causes of the berserkergang
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker)

Theories about what caused berserker behaviour include ingestion of materials with psychoactive properties, psychological processes, and medical conditions.

Modern scholars believe certain examples of berserker rage to have been induced voluntarily by the consumption of drugs such as the hallucinogenic mushroom Amanita muscaria, commonly known as the fly agaric or fly Amanita (Howard D. Fabing. "On Going Berserk: A Neurochemical Inquiry." Scientific Monthly. 83 [Nov. 1956] p. 232), or massive quantities of alcohol (Robert Wernick. The Vikings. Alexandria VA: Time-Life Books. 1979. p. 285). While such practices would fit in with ritual usages, other explanations for the berserker's madness have been put forward, including self-induced hysteria, epilepsy, mental illness or genetic flaws (Peter G. Foote and David m. Wilson. The Viking Achievement. London: Sidgewick & Jackson. 1970. p. 285).

A Horizon Book on Vikings claims[citation needed] that some chieftains would hold their berserkers in reserve during a battle. Once a portion of the enemy line appeared to tire or weaken, the chieftains would send the berserkers charging into the enemy ranks to hopefully open a break and even panic the enemy. The book also claimed that while on sea voyages close to land, berserkers sometimes asked to go ashore to find objects on land to wrestle or bash to give vent to their fury.

Botanists have suggested the behaviour might be tied to ingestion of bog myrtle (Myrica gale syn: Gale palustris), a plant that was one of the main spices in alcoholic beverages in Scandinavia. The drawback is that it increases the hangover headache afterwards. Drinking alcoholic beverages spiced with bog myrtle the night before going to battle might have resulted in unusually aggressive behaviour.

The notion that Nordic Vikings used the fly agaric mushroom to produce their berserker rages was first suggested by the Swedish professor Samuel Ödman in 1784. Ödman based his theory on reports about the use of fly agaric among Siberian shamans. The notion has become widespread since the 19th century, but no contemporary sources mention this use or anything similar in their description of berserkers. In addition, the injection of bufotenine from Bufo marinus toad skin into humans was shown to produce similar symptoms to the "Berserker" descriptions. These findings, first examined by Howard Fabing in 1956, were later linked to the induction of zombie characteristics by ethnobotanists in 1983.

A simpler theory attributes the behaviour to drunken rage. It is also possible that berserkers worked themselves into their frenzy through purely psychological processes, perhaps using frenzied rituals and dances. According to Saxo Grammaticus they also drank bear or wolf blood.


Sacred use of fly agaric mushrooms
By Ross Heaven
http://amanitamuscariareport.com/amanita-muscaria-experiences/sacred-use-of-fly-agaric-mushrooms

".... [A British toxicologist tested his theory that] the Zulu War was fought by the indigenous people under intoxication from the sacred mushroom. This had given them, not only superhuman strength and imperviousness to pain, but a sense of fearlessness and their own divine purpose in battle.

....

the fighter who had taken fly-agaric simply flew across the ring as soon as the bell rang, hardly even touching the ground, and threw his opponent so hard that he ended up on the floor outside the ropes. The intoxicated fighter never even broke a sweat and was not breathing at anything above normal levels when his opponent was counted out.

....

In his book, Ploughing The Clouds, however, Peter Lamborn Wilson argues convincingly that fly-agaric is not only the sacred Soma referred to in the Rg Veda, but that it was used in many European countries and was also central to the Irish Keltic tradition of shamanism, which still continues in its basic form, today."

....The Vikings, for example, are said to have ritually ingested [Aminita muscaria] in order to enter the ‘berserker’ state, ready for battle (indeed, the Icelandic name for fly-agaric contains the word, ‘berserk’), just as the Zulus did, according to my toxicologist lunch mate.

Fly Agaric (Amanita muscaria)
http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/var012.htm
"Today it can be found scattered across the globe, from places as far north as Alaska and Siberia to areas as far south as Australia, South Africa, and South America."

Aminita muscaria mushroom found in Iceland
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10991395

[TylerDurden]

The psychoactive drugs-notion re berserking can't be correct as the amanita etc/ cited are only available seasonally and in specific climates/areas. The notion re drunken rage doesn't fit either as people who are blind drunk make appalling fighters due to lack of coordination etc., and we know berserkers to have been incredible fighters.

[PaleoPhil]

The psychoactive drugs-notion re berserking can't be correct as the amanita etc/ cited are only available seasonally and in specific climates/areas. The notion re drunken rage doesn't fit either as people who are blind drunk make appalling fighters due to lack of coordination etc., and we know berserkers to have been incredible fighters.

I'm not as expert in these matters as you apparently are, but my understanding is that they used to dry the mushrooms and thus have some year round. Plus, in warmer climes my guess would be that the shrooms season would be longer, but I don't know for sure. If someone in a cold clime ran out they could even trade for dried shrooms. Since it's habitat is nearly global and since they could be preserved by drying, there would have always been some somewhere (and you can see from that Icelandic shroom that they can get quite large and it apparently doesn't take much for the berserker effect). As I recall from the TV documentary, Zulu warriors would keep the dried mushrooms and other berserker ingredients in a pouch hanging from their necks and use it before battle. As a matter of fact, when dried the shrooms are reportedly more psychoactive (see "Fly Agaric World," http://www.flyagaric-amanita.com--ironically the author there claims that the use of fly agaric by berserkers is considered urban legend, despite believing that use to be quite plausible and apparently being unaware of the increasing numbers of scientists and historians that have been rediscovering its past importance in both battle and shamanic ritual). If you have different info or any questions, let me know.

[TylerDurden]

It's been claimed that agaric was used in palaeo times for shamanic rituals. The trouble with claims re berserkers using agaric is that there are frequent reports in the Icelandic sagas of berserkers suddenly going into berserker rages for no reason - one would expect a drug to take time to instil the full effect - and none of the sagas mention use of the herb re berserker rages(but they do report the rituals involved in starting up a rage, which have been pointed out as stimulating adrenaline-secretion:-

http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/berserk.htm

. The well-known effect of vastly increased  adrenaline levels easily explains berserker rages without the need for drugs to be used. And we've all heard claims re madmen having the strength of 10 men etc., and there are similiar reports of people suddenly finding they had the strength to do superhuman feats(in accidents etc.) they normally wouldn't have been capable of in a more relaxed state.

[PaleoPhil]

...one would expect a drug to take time to instil the full effect - and none of the sagas mention use of the herb re berserker rages(but they do report the rituals involved in starting up a rage, which have been pointed out as stimulating adrenaline-secretion:-

The sources I provided report "rages"/frenzy as one of the possible effects of the dried mushrooms and the effect occurred very quickly in the documentary I saw. Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the effects from mushrooms and other psychoactives took too long to develop to be useful in warfare?

Plus, the evidence for the use of psychoactives by most traditional cultures is overwhelming. Why would they use them only in peacetime and never in warfare?

http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/berserk.htm

The credibility of this source is questionable, as the author, Wayland, states: "And berserks are also spoken of in Iceland, where this mushroom most definitely did not grow," which I have shown to be false (perhaps it was from this unsupported claim in this article that you got the mistaken notion that this was the case?), and Wayland doesn't appear to provide any text-specific references (but it was very long and I didn't have time to read every word, so if I missed any, please let me know) and the bibliography is heavy on Norse mythology and somewhat weak on history and science, with none of the sources I provided (which Wayland may be unaware of). There are other falsehoods in Wayland's article. Plus, Wayland appears to be using his Website writings to promote his brand of "heathen mysticism," rather than engaging in scientific inquiry (see http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/mysticism.htm). He engages in magical/superstitious thinking multiple times in the article you cited and other of the writings at his site. Given your past cited distaste for superstition, I'm surprised you would cite his writings at all. I'm also surprised you would believe some mostly anonymous dude on the Internet, like Wayland, but disbelieve the scientific references I provided.

Plus, Wayland lists these factors:

1) adrenaline
2) excitement
3) belief that they had "the help of the god Odin" [or other god(s)/spirit(s)]
4) "sympathetic invocation of an animal spirit by wearing its skin or acting in a manner consistent with the animal"
5) actual "possession, as by a spirit or god" or other actual intervention of a god/spirit (with the claim that "religion or spirituality" describes "the same things from different points of view" as science)
6) "an ecstatic state" achieved through "various physical techniques" such as meditation, prayer, dancing, hyperventilation, self-cutting, etc.

Factors 1-3 would have been present in ALL warriors of the Zulus, Vikings, Celts, and other cultures that used berserkers. As for #4, animal skins were commonly worn by an ENTIRE Zulu army and not all berserkers necessarily wore them (some accounts speak of proto-European berserkers going bare chested or even nearly naked, for example). So these factors do not explain what made the berserkers so different from the other warriors within an army (why the berserkers displayed more "rage" than the other warriors and supposedly extreme/"superhuman" levels of strength, fearlessness, battle focus, etc.). #5 cannot be tested scientifically and is outside of the realm of science.

As for #6, I have myself cited other non-mushroom factors like drumming and other instrumentation (such as the Celtic carnyx horn), but they in no way disprove a contribution from psychoactive agents like dried mushrooms. As with most historical and legendary phenomena, it is multifactorial. One of the key differences, however, is that the legendary and historical accounts indicate that ALL the warriors at various times used the non-psychoactive factors to whip themselves up into fighting form, but the psychoactives were used only by the berserkers or top shamans (who were to use their alleged magical/spiritual powers to assist the army) by all accounts I've seen. So it's the one factor that seems to distinctly separate the berserkers from non-berserkers. The question isn't answered conclusively and more research is needed, but the evidence does not support eliminating psychoactives as a possible factor. In fact, the accumulating weight of evidence indicates that they probably were one of several factors.

One of the limitations in your research is that you seem to be limiting it to mostly Viking mythology and history. If you expand it to include other cultures and scientific sources, I think you'll encounter much more of what I've been reporting.

[PaleoPhil]

Another interest we share, Tyler, is in the multiregional evolution (MRE) hypothesis vs. the out of Africa (OoA) hypothesis. One question that occurred to me in my readings on this is, if the OoA hypothesis is false, why does "All European and Asian mtDNAs radiate from L3" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1287914/?referer=www.clickfind.com.au), apparently traced back to East Africa dating back to 70,000 years ago? Since the MRE is still taken seriously, I presume its supporters must have an explanation for this.

My own speculation on this question, is leaning towards thinking there was some mixture of the two, as the origins and causes of most things eventually turn out to be very complex--multifactorial rather than unifactorial, although it also seems fairly common for one factor to be much more dominant than others.

[TylerDurden]

My own speculation on this question, is leaning towards thinking there was some mixture of the two, as the origins and causes of most things eventually turn out to be very complex--multifactorial rather than unifactorial, although it also seems fairly common for one factor to be much more dominant than others.

Intermixture between various apemen species and between modern humans seems logical.  The MRE doesn;'t conflict with this notion. At any rate, I am extremely dubious of the genetic claims, given past experiences(such as that red-haired thread).

[TylerDurden]

The sources I provided report "rages"/frenzy as one of the possible effects of the dried mushrooms and the effect occurred very quickly in the documentary I saw. Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the effects from mushrooms and other psychoactives took too long to develop to be useful in warfare?

  Here:-

"Research shows that ibotenic acid will create an hallucinogenic effect in humans, at doses as small as 50mg. The onset of these effects may be rapid or quite slow, ranging from 30 minutes to 2-3 hours, depending on body type, susceptibility, habituation, and the circumstances of ingestion." taken from:-

http://amanitamuscariareport.com/amanita-muscaria-experiences/sacred-use-of-fly-agaric-mushrooms

As I pointed out, previously, in many instances as mentioned in the sagas, Viking berserkers would soemtimes suddenly enter into berserker rages for no reason. While this can easily be explained by a sudden rise in adrenaline, drugs of any kind would take longer to take effect.

Plus, the evidence for the use of psychoactives by most traditional cultures is overwhelming. Why would they use them only in peacetime and never in warfare?

Because psychoactives have different effects on people depending on the individual(re body-size, genetics etc.), taking longer to take effect for some individuals than others, because amanita mushrooms can't be easily cultivated:-

http://www.amanitashop.com/amanita-cultivation.htm

because the effects vary from individual to individual, depending on potency of the brew etc.It's one thing to use amanita in carefully-prepared shamanic rituals, quite another to mass-produce them for whole berserker units of warriors.

The credibility of this source is questionable, as the author, Wayland, states: "And berserks are also spoken of in Iceland, where this mushroom most definitely did not grow," which I have shown to be false (perhaps it was from this unsupported claim in this article that you got the mistaken notion that this was the case?),

Granted, he was inaccurate there. My own take on this was that Iceland, like many islands has always been notorious for its lack of native trees and mushrooms thrive in woodland more than elsewhere.

and Wayland doesn't appear to provide any text-specific references (but it was very long and I didn't have time to read every word, so if I missed any, please let me know) and the bibliography is heavy on Norse mythology and somewhat weak on history and science, with none of the sources I provided (which Wayland may be unaware of). There are other falsehoods in Wayland's article. Plus, Wayland appears to be using his Website writings to promote his brand of "heathen mysticism," rather than engaging in scientific inquiry (see http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/mysticism.htm). He engages in magical/superstitious thinking multiple times in the article you cited and other of the writings at his site. Given your past cited distaste for superstition, I'm surprised you would cite his writings at all. I'm also surprised you would believe some mostly anonymous dude on the Internet, like Wayland, but disbelieve the scientific references I provided.

Nothing wrong with religion, I'm a religious atheist myself. I'm merely against idealism(which is one of the main flaws of anarcho-primitivism. And he does make a very good point that the sagas do not mention psychoactive substances  used in warfare but do mention the rituals involved. The notion re psychoactives being used was a very recent phenomenon, no doubt espoused by a close-minded Enlightenment  scientist who was uncomfortable with claims that berserkers could use unscientific, religious trances means to induce in themselves their berserker rages:-

"The notion that Nordic Vikings used the fly agaric mushroom to produce their berserker rages was first suggested by the Swedish professor Samuel Ödman in 1784. Ödman based his theory on reports about the use of fly agaric among Siberian shamans. The notion has become widespread since the 19th century, but no contemporary sources mention this use or anything similar in their description of berserkers." taken from:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker

Plus, Wayland lists these factors:

1) adrenaline
2) excitement
3) belief that they had "the help of the god Odin" [or other god(s)/spirit(s)]
4) "sympathetic invocation of an animal spirit by wearing its skin or acting in a manner consistent with the animal"
5) actual "possession, as by a spirit or god" or other actual intervention of a god/spirit (with the claim that "religion or spirituality" describes "the same things from different points of view" as science)
6) "an ecstatic state" achieved through "various physical techniques" such as meditation, prayer, dancing, hyperventilation, self-cutting, etc.

Factors 1-3 would have been present in ALL warriors of the Zulus, Vikings, Celts, and other cultures that used berserkers. As for #4, animal skins were commonly worn by an ENTIRE Zulu army and not all berserkers necessarily wore them (some accounts speak of proto-European berserkers going bare chested or even nearly naked, for example). So these factors do not explain what made the berserkers so different from the other warriors within an army (why the berserkers displayed more "rage" than the other warriors and supposedly extreme/"superhuman" levels of strength, fearlessness, battle focus, etc.). #5 cannot be tested scientifically and is outside of the realm of science.

As for #6, I have myself cited other non-mushroom factors like drumming and other instrumentation (such as the Celtic carnyx horn), but they in no way disprove a contribution from psychoactive agents like dried mushrooms. As with most historical and legendary phenomena, it is multifactorial. One of the key differences, however, is that the legendary and historical accounts indicate that ALL the warriors at various times used the non-psychoactive factors to whip themselves up into fighting form, but the psychoactives were used only by the berserkers or top shamans (who were to use their alleged magical/spiritual powers to assist the army) by all accounts I've seen. So it's the one factor that seems to distinctly separate the berserkers from non-berserkers. The question isn't answered conclusively and more research is needed, but the evidence does not support eliminating psychoactives as a possible factor. In fact, the accumulating weight of evidence indicates that they probably were one of several factors.

Well, at least you do accept the fact that rituals were used to whip them into a frenzy. As for the psychoactives aspect it's largely unproven. But, more importantly, I've occasionally seen people in berserker-like rages(in various brawls and the like) and these were not induced by alcohol or psychoactives but pure blind rage clearly  induced by massive surges of adrenaline.

One of the limitations in your research is that you seem to be limiting it to mostly Viking mythology and history. If you expand it to include other cultures and scientific sources, I think you'll encounter much more of what I've been reporting.

On the contrary, I have already found more evidence supporting the ritual-based claims, such as the example of running amok(mainly linked to psychological aspects):-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amok

As for the Vikings, they are far more well-known for their specialised berserker battalions than any other culture so they need to be a primary focus in an y such berserker-related discussion.

[PaleoPhil]

...As I pointed out, previously, in many instances as mentioned in the sagas, Viking berserkers would soemtimes suddenly enter into berserker rages for no reason. While this can easily be explained by a sudden rise in adrenaline, drugs of any kind would take longer to take effect.

Yes, but did the witnesses claim that they knew the berserkers hadn't taken any stimulants earlier in a shamanic ritual such as a healing session? Besides, remember that the Vikings were not the only ones who employed berserkers in battle, so you shouldn't limit your research to Norse sagas.

because the effects vary from individual to individual, depending on potency of the brew etc.It's one thing to use amanita in carefully-prepared shamanic rituals, quite another to mass-produce them for whole berserker units of warriors.

The Zulus are known to have carried the dried mushroom to war in small pouches around their necks. Again, it didn't take much to work, so no mass production was necessary. All shamans as well as berserkers had the stuff, and since many people in HG tribes had some shamanic ability, the stuff was very common and spanned much of the globe. I really recommend you check out the documentary if you ever get the chance. You'll see I'm not making this stuff up.

Nothing wrong with religion, I'm a religious atheist myself.

I'm not making any point about there being something wrong with religion, just saying there's not way to directly test supernatural claims like interventions by gods or spirits scientifically.

I'm merely against idealism(which is one of the main flaws of anarcho-primitivism. And he does make a very good point that the sagas do not mention psychoactive substances  used in warfare but do mention the rituals involved.

Yes, that is interesting, although it is more an absence of evidence than a refutation of fly agaric. Again, there is more direct evidence outside of the Norse sagas. I could see how you would hold the view you have if you limit yourself to those sources. There is evidence re: fly agaric being used for multiple purposes among Zulus, Siberians, Celts and others. If it truly has the effects that the study found, then it would be strange if no one took advantage of its benefits. Heck, I sure would if I were a Zulu, Celtic or Norse war chief. Why wouldn't I?

Well, at least you do accept the fact that rituals were used to whip them into a frenzy.

I don't understand why you seem to want to narrow so much down to one or two causes and seem to have some reticence about including herbal factors. I usually find that mysterious phenomena are multifactorial, although one factor may predominate. What exactly would be so bad if the Zulus, Celts, Siberians and Norse did use fly agaric for military purposes? Would that somehow undercut the spirituality or purity of their battles? Given that the mushroom was apparently mainly used in spiritual rituals, I don't understand how it could be seen that way.