my so called journal

[Raw Kyle]

Yes yes, you are only feeding you, no?  Then do your sushi cheats.  Hell, you could do much worse for yourself.  I only eat sashimi out, cuz it's so pricey, I want only fish; no filler.

And the martial arts training, how goes it?  Do press on as you can.  Never quit!

Sushi really messes me up. I think it's the carbs, or maybe the grain carbs. I just can't do it anymore, when I eat any sizable amount of grains I feel bloated for a while. It's a shame but I think it's time to learn the lesson that my bloated tummy has taught me dozens of times.

My martial arts training is going ok. I skipped a couple of days but I've been pretty consistent for a while now. I've given up my grand dreams of being a great martial artist and just do it for fun and to keep my body is good condition now.

[Raw Kyle]

I haven't done my little cheats on the diet for almost two weeks now and am feeling very strange. I used to go and eat something non-paleo once or twice a week and would feel kind of crappy about it then do it again next time. I just haven't done it recently, no plan or anything, and I feel not so good now. I've been eating mostly raw muscle and suet with some fruit and today I had some soup made of bone broth with some mushrooms, onions and asparagus cooked in there along with some pork meat my mom had cooked last night. I started feeling weird late last week, felt sore in muscles that I didn't think I worked hard enough to feel as sore as they did, and just last night towards the end of a bjj class I started feeling light headed and slightly nauseous and had to leave early. Then I have this terrible pain in my right neck/back/shoulder area and almost kept me up last night. Also I've been sneezing a few times a day, which I usually don't do.

What gives? Do I have a cold? The flu? I haven't gotten "sick" since started raw vegan 4 or 5 years ago, I figured all those little sicknesses were really just from cooked food, mostly from cooked gluten and dairy. Is my body going through a change after not cheating on the diet for a while? I don't feel dizzy or anything like last night anymore, but I still have this pain in my neck and I would say my energy feels a little off, not totally gone but not what it should be.

[lex_rooker]

Kyle,
If you read my journal you'll find that I've gone through periods of feeling really crappy each time I make a significant change to my lifestyle.  It happened when I changed the fat/protein ratio, it happened when I increased my activity level, each change has caused my body to have to adjust and for a few days I just don't feel my best. 

Personally, I think dietary detox is total nonsense.  No one can define it, or even measure any toxins of any kind in the blood, urine or any other body fluid.  They can't even tell you what causes it.... well that's not an entirely accurate statement.  What is said to cause detox is anything that the guru can't explain.  You feel crappy?  No identifiable cause.... No problem, it's Dietary DETOX! (and you can't prove me wrong because medically there's no such thing! I can't loose).   

Lex

[Raw Kyle]

So you would call it an adjustment?

[lex_rooker]

So you would call it an adjustment?

Why do we have a need to give it some pseudo scientific label?  We have no idea what our bodies are actually doing to cause our temporary low feeling and for each and every time it happens it's likely to be a completely different cause anyway. 

In my journal I recount my experience with adding a very small increase in exercise to my high fat diet and feeling lousy for a week or so.  I was eating very high fat and making demands on my body that it wasn't prepared for or able to easily accommodate.  BG fluctuated all over the place, ketones went through the roof, and energy levels were eratic as my body did what was necessary to accommodate the changes.

In New Age Naturopathic speak I was experiencing serious symptoms of dietary detox.  Of course there were no toxins that anyone could identify, but why let that stop you from labeling it so.  I felt crappy after making a significant change to my diet and a minor change in activity level so it had to be detox.  Total nonsense.  People who don't change there diet but have the same reaction when they raise their activity level are called "out of shape".

What did I call it?  My body adapting to the recent dietary and exercise changes I made.  Not sure why it would need another name - especially one that can't be shown to even exist except in the made-up world of New Age Naturopathic Healing.

Dietary Detox is perfect for new age medicine because it doesn't really exist and when the patient inevitably starts to feel better the Healing Art Practitioner can claim credit.  If the patient doesn't improve, the practitioner can warn that the level of toxicity is extremely high and buried deep within the tissues and will require heroic measures (read expensive herbal remedies, tissue manipulations (massage), colored light, aroma, and reflexology therapies) and many months or years to become completely toxin free.  Believe me, I've been on the receiving end of this one more than once so I'm very familiar with it.

If you still think it might be dietary detox let me know and I'll send you some of my world famous Lex's Detox Diet Aid.  It's a proprietary "all natural" blend of the worst tasting things I can find made into an alcohol infusion.  It's just $250 USD per oz. but you need to act quickly as supplys are limited.  You put one drop under your tongue 1/2 hour before each meal and again at bed time. (There's a 50% discount if you sign up for my monthly automatic reorder plan.)   I guarantee you'll be feeling better in no time.  Of course, on the off chance the problem is greater than expected, you may wish to order my all natural Super Herbal Nutritional Supplement made from 120 exotic healing herb and fruit extracts plus Colonol Sander's 11 Secret Herbs and Spices,  Aroma Therapy Candles (contains real camel dung from the Sahara Desert), Tantric Reflexology Chart, and Super Pyramid Color Light Spectrum Filter (cheap iridescent prismatic Mylar sheet mounted in a pyramid shaped cardboard frame) for your reading lamp.  Contact me directly for a package deal. 

The sad thing is I actually fell for this nonsense myself.......more than once I might add ,
Lex

[Raw Kyle]

Haha. I've done an herbal cleanse before, and a colonic. Can't say I noticed much of a difference, but then again I could have had "deep toxicity" 

You said in another thread that you believe a person would have to bring down their carb consumption to lower than 30 grams a day to begin keto-adaptation. What do you think about eating less than 30 grams of carbs per day for 5 or 6 days a week, and then eating high carbs on one or two days? Is there anything in your research or personal experience that would give you a clue as to whether that would completely stall adaptation or not?

[Satya]

Yeah, I have to agree with Lex.  Detox in a dietary sense may come from its medical usage concerning toxic drug rehabilitation, then converting that to a cooked foods or meats or you fill in the noun here "____________ are poison!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification
"Certain approaches in alternative medicine claim to remove toxins from the body through herbal, electrical or electromagnetic treatments (such as the Aqua Detox treatment). These toxins are undefined and have little scientific basis,[1] making the validity of such techniques questionable. There is no evidence for toxic accumulation in these cases,[1] as the liver and kidneys automatically detoxify and excrete many toxic materials including metabolic wastes. Under this theory if toxins are too rapidly released without being safely eliminated (such as burning fat that stores toxins) they can damage the body and cause malaise. Therapies include contrast showers, detoxification foot pads, oil pulling, Gerson therapy, snake-stones, body cleansing, Scientology's Purification Rundown, water fasting, and metabolic therapy.[8]"

You know, your body is detoxifying substances all the time.  It's called waste and it's why we pee and poo and sweat.  There is no magic behind it, unless you want to make a quick buck on the gullibility of another.

[lex_rooker]

What do you think about eating less than 30 grams of carbs per day for 5 or 6 days a week, and then eating high carbs on one or two days? Is there anything in your research or personal experience that would give you a clue as to whether that would completely stall adaptation or not?

Actually, this is fully covered in Lyle McDonald's book "The Ketogenic Diet".  What you suggest is a protocol often used by weight lifters.  As to the completeness of adaptation etc., who knows, but Lyle covers the pros and cons from a body building and sports performance aspect.

http://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Diet-Complete-Dieter-Practitioner/dp/0967145600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240448341&sr=8-2

A ketogenic diet with a weekly carb cycle would not be "Paleo" by any stretch of the imagination, however, I expect that Paleo man did cycle in and out of dietary ketosis on an annual or maybe biannual basis.  This assumes that Paleo man ate some fruits and veggies in the one or two times per year that they were available (at least in the climates north and south of the tropics).

[lex_rooker]

Kyle,
I did a little review of my older copy of Lyle's book.  It seems that the cyclic ketogenic diet is designed to keep you from fully adapting to a fat/ketone based metabolism.  The idea being that body builders want the anabolic effects of the insulin.  They try to leverage the effects of the ketogenic state on the days they don't work out, but then eat carbs on workout days to raise insulin to high levels for the anabolic muscle building effect.

I think this sorta defeats the idea of a paleo lifestyle.  If you want to follow up on it, your best bet would be to Google "ketogenic diet" and "body building" to get the low down from the body building forums and websites.

Lyle's book is a good resource as well, but rather pricey at $50.  I bought mine several years ago when the price was a mere $40.  I keep it for reference but haven't found it very relevent to a true paleo lifestyle.

Lex

[Raw Kyle]

Hmm, well I'm not into sport bodybuilding anymore but I do still lift weights and would like to at least be able to maintain an athletic physique and have good lb/lb strength for grappling competitions. Do you think a zero or very low carb diet could achieve that? I've heard that short term endurance goes down, and grappling is pretty anaerobic in nature.

[Satya]

Hmm, well I'm not into sport bodybuilding anymore but I do still lift weights and would like to at least be able to maintain an athletic physique and have good lb/lb strength for grappling competitions. Do you think a zero or very low carb diet could achieve that? I've heard that short term endurance goes down, and grappling is pretty anaerobic in nature.

I definitely think you can do this zero carb or vlc, Kyle.  Most martial arts are anaerobic in nature for the most part.  I would highly suggest that you explore the exercise section over at the zeroinginonhealth forum.  There are a ton of people over there (~750 members since Oct '08) eating all carnivore doing various activities without issue.  Some are raw, some not.  But Charles does stress cooking less and less.  He has gotten into shorter distance track racing lately, and his teen boy is zc and into taekwondo fighting.  Charles has gained about 5 lbs of muscle recently too  This idea that we need carbs to function at a high performance is an urban myth.  Anyone that can't go 6 months without carbs should be out of the gene pool in no time; were we back in the day before agriculture, that would be the case in an ice age winter.

You can always gradually cut back on carbs.  That's what I did.  Now I eat none and went through no phase of feeling like shit.  Just like 2 days of a bit of brain drain.  Maybe I will feel bad later; I will let you know if I do.  But you have to try it for yourself and have the will to deal with a bit of discomfort.  Otherwise you will never know.  It is so worth it!

[Raw Kyle]

At first I was thinking I wouldn't try it but now that I'm on a lower carb diet and getting more used to it I'm starting to think I might be able to give it a try sometime in the near future. I would want to make sure I'm fully stocked with pemmican and various types of jerky to make sure I have food at a whim, not being prepared has messed up plans like this for me before.

[lex_rooker]

Way out of my league Kyle.  I really know nothing about body building and strength training.  I'm a 98 lb weakling complete with large yellow stripe down my back.  To really keep the 'cut' look requires consistent work and I just don't want to put in the time.  I have way too many other interests and things that I truly enjoy doing to waste valuable time in a gym pushing cast iron weights around while accomplishing little of value other than creating artificial muscle that I have no other use for.

As long as I can successfully wrestle the trash cans to the curb every week, I'm good.

Lex

[Satya]

At first I was thinking I wouldn't try it but now that I'm on a lower carb diet and getting more used to it I'm starting to think I might be able to give it a try sometime in the near future. I would want to make sure I'm fully stocked with pemmican and various types of jerky to make sure I have food at a whim, not being prepared has messed up plans like this for me before.

Good idea on the having food available.  You may have to increase the fat intake too.  Just take it one day at a time.  My energy has increased slightly overall.  My son has totally taken to this, and I have absolutely nothing to do with it (I tell him to eat the fruit).  He may eat soaked, dried nuts from time to time, but he is totally going native boy.  My meat purchases have increased a lot.  But it's also really easy to do.  Cheaper too methinks.

[Raw Kyle]

You said that there were changes your body went through, periods of discomfort or low energy, every time you changed something significantly in your diet. Here's a list of what I've noticed, please comment on whether or not this stuff happened to you:

muscle and/or joint pain (almost feels like a pinched nerve)

feelings of reluctance to exercise, like you're heart isn't in it

dizziness and mild nausea during exercise

soreness in muscles you didn't think was warranted

increased sweating during exercise

The thing that worried me the most was the dizziness. I already wrote this but to repeat I was wrestling in bjj class and felt fine although I was sweating more than usual or more than I thought I should be, then all of a sudden I sat up and got light headed and nauseous.

[Satya]

I am not Lex, but I am at the beginning stages of this experiment, and I plan to go through at least 3 months, unless something major happens, which I do not foresee.

muscle and/or joint pain (almost feels like a pinched nerve)

No, but I got a wicked calf cramp in the middle of the night.  I had been craving whole dried anchovies and canned salmon with bones yesterday.  Now I know why - Ca, Mg, and/or K deficiency.  This is common at the beginning, and long time zcers say it goes away.  I plan to make sure I get plenty of bones in my diet, including stocks.  In the short term, I will take supplements too.  I am committed to teaching taekwondo 4 days a week, and I just can't mess with performance right now.  This cramp was so bad my gastrognemius (sp?) is now slightly strained from it.

feelings of reluctance to exercise, like you're heart isn't in it

Never.  I have felt like perhaps my energy wasn't high, but my performance never suffers from this.  As a woman, my energy cycles monthly anyway.  I always feel good about working out.  With zc there are no highs and lows.  Endurance is great.

dizziness and mild nausea during exercise

I have low blood pressure and can get dizzy from it on occasion.  I can get dizzy doing spin kicks on the same leg repeatedly too.  I have never experienced nausea.

soreness in muscles you didn't think was warranted

Yes, at the beginning.  Your muscles will get stronger eating this way.  My son told me yesterday that I look leaner and stronger!  Coming from him, that means a lot to me.

increased sweating during exercise

Who knows.  I sweat so much anyway, I don't know if I could tell the difference.

The thing that worried me the most was the dizziness. I already wrote this but to repeat I was wrestling in bjj class and felt fine although I was sweating more than usual or more than I thought I should be, then all of a sudden I sat up and got light headed and nauseous.

I would suggest that you wean your way off of carbs.  First, strictly avoid all sweet fruits, including berries.  Stick with a bit of avocado, olives and greens.  Stuff like that, and only once a day.  Then reduce further over time.  Count the carbs if you must and keep it 20 or lower always decreasing over time.

Have your blood pressure checked.  Sounds like orthostatic hypotension, and I have had this off and on my whole life.  My bp can be as low as 90/50.

[lex_rooker]

muscle and/or joint pain (almost feels like a pinched nerve)

feelings of reluctance to exercise, like you're heart isn't in it

dizziness and mild nausea during exercise

soreness in muscles you didn't think was warranted

increased sweating during exercise

Kyle,
Yup, I went through all if it over many months time, and over time all of it went away.   Satya mentions severe muscle cramps which I had as well, and again, over time they too have gone away.  I did add a bit of salt (1g - 2g) to my food everyday in an effort to reduce the cramping which helped, but have even dropped that for the most part and all is well.

I must say that my ability to create intense bursts of physical energy seems to have bee permanently compromised, but my overall endurance has increased significantly.  It is also interesting that this endurance seems to be available when I need it without constant conditioning to keep it available.  I'm sure it would be even much better than it is if I did do regular conditioning work, but the difference between what I can do without consistent exercise as a carnivore, and what I could do under the same conditions as a vegan is like night and day.

I don't think zero carb is a magic bullet, but as with everything in life there are trade-offs.  You just have to decide what's most important to you and move in that direction.  I have given GS a bad time about the large amounts of fruit he says he consumes as I don't think that his level of consumption of carbs is anywhere in line with a paleolithic lifestyle.  That said, I'm not sure that eating 30g - 75g of carbs per day is a bad thing.  It would probably keep you out of ketosis, and remove the requirement for such a long term adaptation that I have gone through, while maintaining a better ability for extended energy bursts.

Remember also that I had significant palpable health issues - unbelievably severe migraine headaches as well as the obvious onset of "the diseases of civilization" (diabetes, high blood pressure, enlarged prostate, obesity et.al.).  You are very young, and if you keep your carb consumption below 75g per day you may avoid these things all together.  I'm not convinced that zero carb is the Holy Grail of a paleo diet even though it works well for me.  However, I am fairly convinced that copious consumption of sugary fruits and juices is the antithesis of paleo and should be avoided.

VLC (no more than 5% calories from carbs) is probably a very good compromise for someone who is young and eats only paleo friendly carbs for the small amount eaten.  I've chosen to stay zero carb for the time being as it has been so successful for me.  If you haven't spent some time reading through the amazing amount of information on Peter's Hyperlipid blog, might I suggest that you do.  It may well help you make up your mind as to how best for you to proceed.  Peter's blog can be found here.  Go back and read through all the archives, it will be well worth your while.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

Satya pointed me to this bit in Peter's blog on fruits an veggies.  It was written in late 2007 - quite interesting.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2007/12/fruit-and-vegetables-re-post.html

Keep us posted on what you find, the direction you choose to take, and how it works for you.  Just remember that overall adaptation to a significant lifestyle and dietary change can take many months and there will be peaks and valleys along the way.

Lex

 

[Nicola]

Lex, may I ask you - you have eyes and a strong mind...over the years your life style got your system in to trouble (diabetes, high blood pressure, enlarged prostate, obesity et.al.). Did this have to do with your wife's cooking and if so, is she in good health / was she in good health before? You must be able to compare your life style and health not with what is going on around you.

My parents have never been extream in any thing, have never fasted or done any form of "special" diet - my mother cooks and they eat...some processed and some plain food. They have their little problems but just seem to keep a steady routine.

Nicola

[lex_rooker]

Nicola,
I'll answer this in Kyle's journal to keep continuity, but best if you ask questions like this in my Journal.

My wife is Greek and very driven by Greek culture.  She grew up in a small village of 60 families and many of the decedents from those families came to the USA and settled here in the Los Angeles area. 

She is 65 (7 years older than I am).  She has had significant health issues for over 15 years, all diet related.  She eats large amounts of pasta, rice and bread - these are the mainstays of her diet along with large amounts of olive oil.  She goes through a gallon of olive oil or more every month.

She has had her gallbladder removed, appendix removed, and has been in the hospital 5 times in the last 2 years for blocked bile and pancreatic ducts.  She is about 85 pounds overweight at 5'0" - 220 lbs (152cm, 100kg).  She takes medication for diabetes, cholesterol, and high blood pressure.  All of this could easily be addressed through diet but eating is more important to her than her health.

Lex 

[Raw Kyle]

I'll check out that blog, thanks lex.

From that little bit about fruits and veggies real quick I'm starting to think that a little bit of raw fermented or even cooked veggies is more paleo and healthy than an equal amount of raw fruit, unless you can find wild fruit. From what little I know about wild fruits, it seems the only good tasting ones are berries, all the wild ancestors of other fruits I've read about have been said to be very seedy, and either tart or sour with little sweetness, sometimes even starchy and completely unappealing. Although now that I think of it I've heard figs are good in their wild state and make up a large part of many apes diets. A fig tree would grow where I live too, maybe I'll try planting one.

Would you make a comment on what you believe to be the most paleo friendly and health friendly source of carbs? Last week I had a bone broth soup and put in some onion, mushrooms and asparagus as those three produce section goodies seem to be on the "closer to their wild brethren" side of the spectrum, in particular mushrooms. Onions in the wild I believe are like a grass with a tiny onion bulb in the ground, and wild asparagus I think I read is just smaller.

[Tim]

i was just thinking about making a topic about this.... which plant foods are most paleo? it seems most people on here are moving away from plants, but i still use them and think they are useful. I still eat greens, some vegetables, nuts, seeds, and very little sweet fruit, just berries, including a little bit of goji berries. Ive been eating a lot of coconut and avocado lately.  I think our ancestors would have incorporated some plant matter. I currently use chia seeds, some steamed quinoa, walnuts, dandelion greens, mustard greens, onion, and garlic. Im gonna try some mushrooms too apart from the reishi tea i make.

funny you mentioned about cooked and fermented as well. after being raw vegan and now transitioning to paleo, i find cooking vegetables may be useful. ive been making some soups with root vegetables such as burdock and turnips, celery root, parsnips. also just got some kim chee this week.

[lex_rooker]

Kyle & Tim,
I'm really not sure what would be true paleo.  TylerD sent me a link showing that herbs were in use, at least medicinally or ceremonially at least 60,000 years ago as there have been some excavated sites showing burials with plant material in the graves.  To me 60K years is still pretty recent and more Mesolithic than Paleolithic but I guess you can interpert the dates any way you wish.

Real wild plants like wild dandylions, burdock, lambsquarter, and purselane are pretty common weeds.  They are tough, stringy and some are really bitter but they are edible. I ate my share of them trying to live off the land when I was younger.  None of the stuff in the market, either fruits or veggies is anywhere near what would be found in the wild.  Also, most wild annuals in North America have a very short season in the wild as they only grow during and directly after the rainy season.  In most of the southwestern states all the plants are dried up and gone to seed by the end of April and May at the latest.  The wild fruits don't arrive until late August/September timeframe and they're gone by mid October.  Usually the birds wipe out all the fruits just before they ripen so it's tough to get any unless you go to great lengths to protect the plants with nets.

I did find a patch of wild strawberries once - at least I was told they were wild.  They were about the size of a large pea, bright red, lots of tiny seeds on the outside skin like a normal strawberry but much closer together.  They weren't sweet - more bland and pithy, but did have a mild strawberry-like flavor.  Nothing to write home about.

Good idea to start a thread on the subject.

Lex

[William]

I did find a patch of wild strawberries once - at least I was told they were wild.  They were about the size of a large pea, bright red, lots of tiny seeds on the outside skin like a normal strawberry but much closer together.  They weren't sweet - more bland and pithy, but did have a mild strawberry-like flavor.  Nothing to write home about.

The wild strawberries I found were the opposite of bland - flavour was so intense that the little sweetness was hardly noticed.

They grow wild in my front yard, but I've never seen the berries - the %*^&$#^^&( squirrels must get them all.

[Raw Kyle]

I've stuck pretty low carb still. I have a slight head ache now. Also I don't feel as good as I used to after eating my normal meals of beef cubes and suet. I feel almost bloated, even though I'm not combining carbs with it like I sometimes do.

I will start keeping track of my weight, which I wasn't following too closely before. Today I weighed about 158 lbs, which is what I remember weighing for a while now.

Hey lex, I haven't been weighing my food to keep track of calories, but maybe you could help me estimate. I usually fill a bowel with perhaps 3/4 lbs of beef cubes, maybe a little bit more, and then fill a smaller bowel with suet I cut into chunks. I would estimate the suet volume to be about the volume of a half pound of muscle meat, but I'm assuming it weighs less because of less water content. If I were to eat roughly that twice a day, a little less than a pound of muscle meat and about half that volume in suet, how many calories do you think that would be?

[lex_rooker]

Can't help you much with accurate calories Kyle, unless you have a fairly accurate weight of food components.  If you want me to SWAG it, here goes:

Assuming beef cubes with 10% fat you have about 18.5% protein
Normal suet is about 60% fat.

If you have 3/4 lb lean beef cubes and say 1/3 lb fat then:
0.75 lb meat = 340 grams
0.33 lb raw fat = 150 grams

If your lean meat is 10% fat and 18.5% protein then you would have 34 grams fat and 63 grams protein.
Raw fat is about 60% fat with the rest being water and connective tissue so the suet would represent about 90 grams of fat.

34 grams fat from the meat + 90 grams fat from the suet is 124 grams total fat.

Calories from fat would be 9 x 124 = 1,116
Calories from protein is 4 x 63 =  252

Total calorie intake for a meal = 1368 x 2 meals per day = 2736 calories per day.

You are getting (2 x 1116)/2736 = .82 or 82% calories from fat
You are getting (2 x 252) / 2736 = .18 or 18% calories from protein

Best I can do without better estimates of fat content of the lean meat and actual weights of the meat and suet.

Lex