Protein and fat digestion

[Nicola]

How do you get on with digesting protein and fat? I found this:

Saturated fats like meat fat can make the digestion worse because
they are low in the unsaturated fats and provide a basically neutral
environment in the intestines, but actually diluting HCL. In this
instance the intestines can't really ferment the meat and age it yet
the stomach acid is not strong enough to provide a good environment
for oxidating.
 
Could to little salt be the result of fat and protein found in stools?

I don't use salt and am wondering if this could be unhealthy for the human body and not be ideal even if the meat is raw and the fat is raw?

Nicola

[TylerDurden]

Well, there've been claims by some zero-carbers that salt is needed. I am sceptical of this as plenty of natural salts are found in meats and blood. Plus, I've had slight negative reactions to salt-intake when I've used it too frequently. I now only use a touch of (sea-)salt on very rare occasions to spice up some meats but that's all.

Re your quotation about saturated fats:- Out of interest, which guru did you get this quotation from? Was it a vegan one? I'm just curious.

[xylothrill]

How do you get on with digestin protein and fat? I found this:

Saturated fats like meat fat can make the digestion worse because
they are low in the unsaturated fats and provide a basically neutral
environment in the intestines, but actually diluting HCL. In this
instance the intestines can't really ferment the meat and age it yet
the stomach acid is not strong enough to provide a good environment
for oxidating.
 
Could to little salt be the result of fat and protein found in stools?

I don't use salt and am wondering if this could be unhealthy for the human body and not be ideal even if the meat is raw and the fat is raw?

Nicola

I'm a little confused. I thought you said on yahoo that fish was even harder for you to digest than beef.
You need chloride to make hydrochloric acid but I never found the chloride part of salt to be a problem for myself. There is about twice as much chloride as there is sodium in NaCl. They are both ions so they separate in liquid. I'm not sure how much Cl meat contains. I've checked the UDSA database and it's not even listed.

Craig

[xylothrill]

Well, there've been claims by some zero-carbers that salt is needed. I am sceptical of this as plenty of natural salts are found in meats and blood. Plus, I've had slight negative reactions to salt-intake when I've used it too frequently. I now only use a touch of (sea-)salt on very rare occasions to spice up some meats but that's all.

I know that Andrew and I have said that but we also both sweat a lot. It only takes a pinch of sea salt every few days. If I had  a fresh blood source, I don't think I'd need to add any salt at all. If our ancestors had a taste for salt, they'd probably have consumed a little more blood. Also, if I ate more seafood, especially shell fish, I'd probably get the salt I need but it's just so expensive except for the farm raised junk.

I also would like to know where Nicola found that.

Craig

[Nicola]

Re your quotation about saturated fats:- Out of interest, which guru did you get this quotation from? Was it a vegan one? I'm just curious.
[/quote]

No it was not a vega guru.

Nicola

[Nicola]

I'm a little confused. I thought you said on yahoo that fish was even harder for you to digest than beef.
You need chloride to make hydrochloric acid but I never found the chloride part of salt to be a problem for myself. There is about twice as much chloride as there is sodium in NaCl. They are both ions so they separate in liquid. I'm not sure how much Cl meat contains. I've checked the UDSA database and it's not even listed.

Craig

and I am confused too...I have not tryed fish because I now that fish takes long to digest if the fish is oily; what do you mean?

Some say use salt others say that raw meat does not need salt. Chloride is needed for protein (and fat?) digestion. If we need salt with raw meat (the Bear said that salt is not needed with meat), then we need it with all raw meat and every time we eat raw meat - not just every now and then.

This is what Dr. Groves sent me:

Hi Nicola

About saturated fat makes no sense. Whoever wrote it is ignorant of how the
body works.

The acid in the stomach is hydrochloric acid (HCl). It needs a supply of
clorine to replenish it. That chlorine comes in the diet, usually from
salt -- sodium chloride.

In palaeotimes, the blood of animals would have been used. These days
animals are bled. I think you would do well to use  salt again.

The difference between people's digestion could be that some eat salt and
some don't.

Regards

Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss
Co-producer: Be Slim Without Dieting (Video / DVD)
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk
http://www.diabetes-diet.org.uk
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.org.uk

Dogs don't eat fresh killed on a raw meat diet and don't need extra salt?

Some mention that they find suet / undigested protein in their sools - perhaps this is to do with no eating salt?

Nicola

[xylothrill]

and I am confused too...I have not tryed fish because I now that fish takes long to digest if the fish is oily; what do you mean?

Because fish is high in unsaturated fat and you said that digestion of beef fat is difficult because it is low in unsaturated fat. That's what confuses me. 

Some say use salt others say that raw meat does not need salt. Chloride is needed for protein (and fat?) digestion. If we need salt with raw meat (the Bear said that salt is not needed with meat), then we need it with all raw meat and every time we eat raw meat - not just every now and then.

This is what Dr. Groves sent me:

Hi Nicola

About saturated fat makes no sense. Whoever wrote it is ignorant of how the
body works.

The acid in the stomach is hydrochloric acid (HCl). It needs a supply of
clorine to replenish it. That chlorine comes in the diet, usually from
salt -- sodium chloride.

In palaeotimes, the blood of animals would have been used. These days
animals are bled. I think you would do well to use  salt again.

The difference between people's digestion could be that some eat salt and
some don't.

Regards

Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss
Co-producer: Be Slim Without Dieting (Video / DVD)
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk
http://www.diabetes-diet.org.uk
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.org.uk

Dogs don't eat fresh killed on a raw meat diet and don't need extra salt?

Some mention that they find suet / undigested protein in their sools - perhaps this is to do with no eating salt?

Nicola

I agree with Dr. Groves about the blood and chlorine but he also doesn't believe that excess salt is a problem.

All you can do is experiment with the different advice you've been given and see what works for you. Please let us know if you do decide on any experiments. They'd fit nicely into the Lab Rats forum.

Craig

[Nicola]

Because fish is high in unsaturated fat and you said that digestion of beef fat is difficult because it is low in unsaturated fat. That's what confuses me. 



I agree with Dr. Groves about the blood and chlorine but he also doesn't believe that excess salt is a problem.

All you can do is experiment with the different advice you've been given and see what works for you. Please let us know if you do decide on any experiments. They'd fit nicely into the Lab Rats forum.

Craig

Craig, I didn't say that about fat and digestion was from me; that was posted on yahoo group.

I don't like to experiment as our mind can play tricks...salty tricks? No one is drinking ionized water - this water gives me like "high energy". Some say they drink no more than 4dl of "normal" water (on a high fat and protein diet) - perhaps I am drinking too much water? Some don't use salt (Lex) others think they need salt. I find undigested fat in my stool others say they bolt down tough and fat and digestion is "clean".

I found this when I googled:

Prehistoric man obtained salt from the meat of hunted animals. When man developed agriculture, salt was added to supplement the vegetable and cereal diet and the quest of salt became a primary motivation in history.

Any additional opinions ?

[xylothrill]

Craig, I didn't say that about fat and digestion was from me; that was posted on yahoo group.

I don't like to experiment as our mind can play tricks...salty tricks? No one is drinking ionized water - this water gives me like "high energy". Some say they drink no more than 4dl of "normal" water (on a high fat and protein diet) - perhaps I am drinking too much water? Some don't use salt (Lex) others think they need salt. I find undigested fat in my stool others say they bolt down tough and fat and digestion is "clean".

I found this when I googled:

Prehistoric man obtained salt from the meat of hunted animals. When man developed agriculture, salt was added to supplement the vegetable and cereal diet and the quest of salt became a primary motivation in history.

Any additional opinions ?

Do you still have your gall bladder? If you do, maybe you aren't producing enough bile. Bile is needed to emulsify the fat so that it can be absorbed properly but the undigested gristle does sound like you may have low hydrochloric acid in your stomach.

Prehistoric man had access to the whole animal and the meat would have been bloody so, I don't doubt that at all.

Craig

[Nicola]

Do you still have your gall bladder? If you do, maybe you aren't producing enough bile. Bile is needed to emulsify the fat so that it can be absorbed properly but the undigested gristle does sound like you may have low hydrochloric acid in your stomach.

Prehistoric man had access to the whole animal and the meat would have been bloody so, I don't doubt that at all.

Craig

I have all intact (organs).

I am eating beef; I ride all the way to Germany (Waldshut) for Argentine beef (they are skiny); it has a wild tast, not like farmed beef in Europa (with manure sprayed on the feelds...)

The mutton leg is bloody too (not like lamb). The organs are bloody. And I am trying my bloody best :'(.

Nicola

[Nicola]

http://www.eletewater.com/elpdf/chloride_meletis.pdf

I wonder now how dogs and other animals eating raw meat digest; the raw meat they get is not always fresh kill with a lot of blood.

What about those humans that eat pemmican; that is lean sun-dried meat and rendered fat - no extra salt?

Nicola

[xylothrill]

http://www.eletewater.com/elpdf/chloride_meletis.pdf

I wonder now how dogs and other animals eating raw meat digest; the raw meat they get is not always fresh kill with a lot of blood.

What about those humans that eat pemmican; that is lean sun-dried meat and rendered fat - no extra salt?

Nicola

Salt actually becomes more concentrated in sun-dried meat so it's not lost as the water evaporates. it'll make you thirstier and you'll want to drink more water.

As for dogs and other animals, the same would apply. As the dead animal dried out, all the minerals, including salt,  would become more concentrated as they don't evaporate along with the water in the blood.

The problem really seems to boil down to (pun intended) the bleeding of animals by modern slaughterers. 

Craig

[Nicola]

Betaine is a source of hydrochloric acid (HCL), an acid found in digestiv juices that's involved in the production of the enzyme pepsin.

There are no food sources of betaine hydrochloride and it's not an essential nutrient.

HCL converts pepsinogen to pepsin, an enzyme that breaks down protein. As people age, HCL secretion may be reduced which means decreased levels of pepsin.

Betaine HCL is not the same as hydrochloric acid to aid digestion.
Hydrochloric acid is the water-based solution of (HCI) hydrogenchloride gas. It is a strong acid, the major component of gastric acid.

The body makes Betain from Cholin (found in raw! meat, liver, egg). Cholin is reduced by estrogen, suger, alcohol.

All the information I can find is not based on a raw meat and fat diet / paleo diet. No mention of how carnivore animals make hydrogenchloride gas with out extra salt.

Nicola

[xylothrill]

I'd love to investigate this further but I've had a late work night tonight and an early workday tomorrow. I've never had a problem with stomach acid so I only am familiar with the sodium part of the equation. I'll research betain and choline tomorrow (Sunday night) and give you my take.

I don't think carnivorous animals need "extra" salt but as someone else mentioned, some do seek it out - vegetarian animals as I recall.

Craig

[Nicola]

http://www.paleodietonline.com/2008/01/digestion-is-key-to-health-part-2.html

Why don't they mention salt?

Nicola

[xylothrill]

http://www.paleodietonline.com/2008/01/digestion-is-key-to-health-part-2.html

Why don't they mention salt?

Nicola

Probably because they aren't talking about a deficiency but rather a stomach that's been so over-worked that it's lost the ability to produce hydrochloric acid. Like a type two diabetic, they don't have a deficiency that impairs insulin production. It's that their islet cells are so over-worked that their beta cells begin to die.

With the stomach situation, it might also be a vicious cycle - not being able to digest food in order to get what's needed to be able to digest that food.

Craig

[Nicola]

Hi Nicola

I am group A as well. But as the whole "different blood group/different diet" thing is nonsense, let's not go off-track into the nonsensical.

Your body needs both chlorine and sodium, which it can only get from what you eat. it doesn't matter which foods you eat to get them, but if the food you eat doesn't contain them, then you have to eat something like salt which does.

Pretty much all meats and other animal products contain sodium and chlorine in the form of sodium chloride (salt). In a temperate climate such as most of us live in, we only need abour 3 grams of salt a day but, as this much can be lost in about 2 hours of sweating on a warm day, in a hotter climate we may need much more as the amount is directly related to water requirements - sweat more, lose more, need to eat more. In this respect we are all different.

Most common indicator of sodium ideficiency is muscle cramps. let your body be your guide.

Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss

[Nicola]

Francis Pottenger mentioned that gelatin is a hydrophilic colloid,
which means that it attracts and holds liquids, it facilitates
digestion by attracting digestive juices to food in the gut.

http://wss.nourishingconnections.org/Education/Broth.pdf

Well Lex has ground bones in his mix of beef and dog&cat - this may
help digestion of protein.

Do you eat bones?

So it is not just salt for stomach acid - now we need gelatin too!

Nicola

[xylothrill]

Francis Pottenger mentioned that gelatin is a hydrophilic colloid,
which means that it attracts and holds liquids, it facilitates
digestion by attracting digestive juices to food in the gut.

http://wss.nourishingconnections.org/Education/Broth.pdf

Well Lex has ground bones in his mix of beef and dog&cat - this may
help digestion of protein.

Do you eat bones?

So it is not just salt for stomach acid - now we need gelatin too!

Nicola

I don't eat bones. Every once in a while, I'll find a bone fragment in my ground food but I don't know if it gets digested. Are you thinking of adding bone broth to your diet?

[carnivore]

I tend to have some muscle cramps in addition to my poor protein/fat digestive ability. As I only eat raw meat, I may need to add salt to my diet, but I really don't like the taste!

Chewing is also very important for proper digestion.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0203CAT/fletcher.pdf

Hi Nicola

I am group A as well. But as the whole "different blood group/different diet" thing is nonsense, let's not go off-track into the nonsensical.

Your body needs both chlorine and sodium, which it can only get from what you eat. it doesn't matter which foods you eat to get them, but if the food you eat doesn't contain them, then you have to eat something like salt which does.

Pretty much all meats and other animal products contain sodium and chlorine in the form of sodium chloride (salt). In a temperate climate such as most of us live in, we only need abour 3 grams of salt a day but, as this much can be lost in about 2 hours of sweating on a warm day, in a hotter climate we may need much more as the amount is directly related to water requirements - sweat more, lose more, need to eat more. In this respect we are all different.

Most common indicator of sodium ideficiency is muscle cramps. let your body be your guide.

Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss

[Nicola]

Carnivore why run away from your bodys signals - it's health you want isn't it?

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/salt.htm

http://www.t-nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/sodium_your_secret_weapon&cr=dietAndNutrition

Look I don't "need" salt for taste but the body needs salt for so many reasons - and if it takes a little salt to balance the bodys needs then...

Nicola

[TylerDurden]

Don't worry about it , Nicola! As barry mentioned, there's plenty of salts in raw meats.

[Nicola]

I don't eat bones. Every once in a while, I'll find a bone fragment in my ground food but I don't know if it gets digested. Are you thinking of adding bone broth to your diet?

No, broth would not be raw paleo - I used to believe in broth when I was eating cooked meat but I can not say if I felt any better with broth; just more stress!

I thought Lex mentioned ground bone in his dog&cat?

[Nicola]

Don't worry about it , Nicola! As barry mentioned, there's plenty of salts in raw meats.

Well I don't know, wouldn't you worry if raw meat gave you loose stooles and little bits of undigested fat? Barry also mentioned that salt is needed with raw meat because it is not fresh kill with lots of blood. Of course Barry's digestion is perfect eating cooked meat - but then again what is perfect?

Lex mentioned:
I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms.  I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.

His meat is quite bloody. I don't know what I am missing - but why are some adding salt and others not - some having normal stools and some not - some have other strange symptoms and some not? How do we know that what we think is the way things are - perhaps many are have putrefying (salt has to do with stomach acid and other parts of digestion) digestion and don't know!

Why is your digestion perfect ? Why is AV against salt? Why does he recommend grain fed meat? I don't get the storey!

I did try, for the first time to eat all my beef (I have never been able to - I always chewed and spat out every mouth full) because I was eating a little salt. Yesterday I had some mutton leg and this was so tough I just could not deel with it (this mutton must have been as old as the hills) - that was not a very pleasing meal (.

Nicola

Nicola

[TylerDurden]

Well I don't know, wouldn't you worry if raw meat gave you loose stooles and little bits of undigested fat? Barry also mentioned that salt is needed with raw meat because it is not fresh kill with lots of blood. Of course Barry's digestion is perfect eating cooked meat - but then again what is perfect?

Lex mentioned:
I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms.  I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.

His meat is quite bloody. I don't know what I am missing - but why are some adding salt and others not - some having normal stools and some not - some have other strange symptoms and some not? How do we know that what we think is the way things are - perhaps many are have putrefying (salt has to do with stomach acid and other parts of digestion) digestion and don't know!

Why is your digestion perfect ? Why is AV against salt? Why does he recommend grain fed meat? I don't get the storey!

I did try, for the first time to eat all my beef (I have never been able to - I always chewed and spat out every mouth full) because I was eating a little salt. Yesterday I had some mutton leg and this was so tough I just could not deel with it (this mutton must have been as old as the hills) - that was not a very pleasing meal (.

Nicola

Nicola

Most peoples' digestion is perfect on a raw-animal-food diet unless their digestion is somehow permanently damaged from years of eating cooked-foods - I'm not therefore the exception but the rule. I had horrible digestion with cooked-animal food, pre-raw diet, despite having lots of salt in my food at the time, so I know that salt isn't needed.

As for AV recommending grainfed meat, he's sorely misguided. Not only is the vast majority of grainfed meat raised intensively in factory-farm conditions, but even organic, grainfed meat is bad for you(by comparison to grassfed).  I think the reason why he doesn't recommend grassfed is possibly because some Primal dieters find it too difficult to get hold of grassfed meat, so he allows grainfed meat as well. Plus, Aajonus seems to be more focused on the benefits of raw animal fat, and considers it superior, even if grainfed, to cooked animal fat. However, based on mine and others' experience, I think it's obvious  that high-quality nutrients (from grassfed animals) are just as important as the issue of whether a meat is raw or cooked.