Author Topic: Protein and fat digestion  (Read 37956 times)

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carnivore

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2008, 08:10:13 pm »
Himalayan salt tastes good for me!

Thank's for the help Nicola!

Frederic

Carnivore why run away from your bodys signals - it's health you want isn't it?

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/salt.htm

http://www.t-nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/sodium_your_secret_weapon&cr=dietAndNutrition

Look I don't "need" salt for taste but the body needs salt for so many reasons - and if it takes a little salt to balance the bodys needs then...

Nicola

xylothrill

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2008, 09:23:30 pm »


Lex mentioned:
I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms.  I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.


I must have overlooked that tidbit! When did he say that? When I started the first time, I added salt and spices to help with the taste since I was following his diet. When I got used to the taste I stopped adding everything, including salt. That's when my problems started and it took a lot of research before I eventually nailed it down to salt. I wasn't as vocal in the group about it as you are until I figured it out.

Craig

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2008, 03:55:19 am »
I must have overlooked that tidbit! When did he say that? When I started the first time, I added salt and spices to help with the taste since I was following his diet. When I got used to the taste I stopped adding everything, including salt. That's when my problems started and it took a lot of research before I eventually nailed it down to salt. I wasn't as vocal in the group about it as you are until I figured it out.

Craig


Craig, I asked him upon your welcoming him to this forum. I can rember asking him last year - I have been on this salt mania for a long time - and he then answered, that he had never thought about salt (perhaps I missunderstood; I looked for it on the yahoo group but it's hard to find old answers). I am shore many have "little" problems and just don't track them...or perhaps I am a mania?

Nicola

Offline Nicola

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2008, 05:23:48 am »
Found this on my maniac tour:

The Beat:

Salt is an addiction. It is culturally induced induced by the need to
add some salt for flavour in vegetables. When I gave up salt, the
only food that I ate which seemed to need salt was eggs, but after a
few years this passed- unsalted butter made the difference- without
that added fat eggs are definitely very bland. Take care to only buy
and use unsalted butter. Salt in butter is there as a preservative,
thus the level is very high. Unsalted butter is a bit more expensive
because only very fresh cream can be used to make it, whereas soured
cream, neutralised with soda is used to make 'regular' butter that is
then preserved with salt. The very best and tastiest butter possible
is made at home by shaking pure cream, and separating the resulting
delicious near-white butter from the whey.

Taking in more salt than you body needs is very, very bad for you. If
your sweat tastes salty, you have too much intake. Both the skin and
the kidneys dump salt, but cannot 'change gears' quickly. Both organs
are affected by passing salt. The salt content of sweat and urine can
go down to a few parts per million, to conserve the saline balance of
the bodies tissues. It only takes about one ounce of any meat/day to
supply all the sodium your body requires. for normal saline balance.
I sometimes sweat so proficiently that I need to drink 3 or four
litres of water in less than an hour. I have no effects of low salt,
and my sweat is never salty. I used to watch the other kids in ballet
class scarfing slat tabs, while I just drank water, my shirt was very
wet, but dried out normal but theirs were rimed with a heavy white
salt crust,indicating that the massive excess of alt was simply being
dumped. If they did not eat the salt tabs when drinking water, they
fainted.

If addicted to salt, just like with any other addiction, when you
stop using, you will experience 'side effects', such as everything
suddenly seeming tasteless and bland. If you persist, salt becomes
vile-tasting, and food without salt very tasty (but not (sodium-
deficient) veggies-tasteless by nature, but which we are not talking
about here).

It takes several days for your body to stop dumping salt through the
skin and kidneys and begin conserving it, so when quitting, be aware
of your salt balance- you may experience light headed-ness and the
other classic signs of low sodium, if necessary take a tiny pinch-
but try to stop all salt as quickly as you can tolerate it. Salt was
a significant cause of my grandfather's demise at 91 from kidney
failure. I consider it a chemical poison. Only vegetarians have a
salt-deficiency in their diet.

Our taste buds are important early warning detectors of the nature of
things taken into the mouth. The bitter taste sense, for instance
does not mean that we were destined by nature to like or need Swedish
Bitters, it is there to warn you of alkaloids in plants, common
defensive chemicals which can be very fatal. Likewise, sweet, salt
and sour are not indicators of what you should be taught to like as
food, they are there so you can measure and test- some food may have
gone bad, if it is sour- milk for instance. Taste buds are simply
chemical detectors which every animal has, and are generic in
response- not indicators to any specific food liking, that is learned
behaviour- cued by taste (and smell). Most of what we view as the
taste of something is mostly the smell.

Salt is a simple chemical, sodium chloride, a mineral substance mined
from where it has been deposited from weathered rocks or pools of
seawater. It can be found contaminated with a wide variety of
additional compounds, depending on the source it is derived from.
Some kinds may also be toxic- as well as unhealthful, as is pure salt
in all its forms. Human commerce in salt began with the use of
vegetation as a major item of human food. Only herbivorous animals
will seek out and consume salt- because sodium is lacking in all
terrestrial plant tissues. Carnivores do not need any salt. Your
taste for salt on meat is learned behaviour only.


And this:

sodium in the body is controled by a negative feedback system using the hormones aldosterone as well as other hormones that I do not want to get into at the moment. To make this simple, when you ingest sodium or salt your body inhibits the release of aldosterone and you will excrete more sodium in the urine. Aldosterone promotes sodium reabsorbtion. So if you use salt in your diet and you go a long period of time without it, your body will crave more because you have exreted alot of it in your urine due to the lack of aldosterone. On the other hand if you do not use alot of salt in your diet your adrenals will secrete more aldosterone thus conserving the amount of salt that gets exreted in the urine. If you add salt to your diet at this point in time when aldosterone is high (caused from long periods of low salt intake) you will get edema or water retention in some areas of the body. Continue to eat more salt and the body's negative feedback system will kick in and will inhibit aldosterone becuase the body does not need to conserve salt since it is getting high quantities of it. Now since your body has reduced its aldosterone levels it can handle more salt from the diet because it is being excreted quicker from the body from the inhibition of this hormone.

I personally believe we should not use any salt in our diet and I strongly agree with Bear on this one. I believe once you go long periods of time without using salt your body will adapt and you will feel alot better. Its just like with restricting carbs. You have to restrict them and wait for the adaptation period to kick in so your body will normalize. The Yanomami South American tribe has a super low amount of sodium in their diet (which consits of meat and large amounts of vegtables) and they have the lowest blood pressures on the planet from what I have read.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2008, 04:46:06 pm »
I agree re salt being useless. But, actually, the argument re needing salt for vegetables is absurd. The main use of salt, throughout history, has been to preserve raw meats, something that was essential in eras before fridges were invented. Salt has also been particularly useful as regards covering up the lack of taste of cooked-foods in general, especially cooked meats, which is why salt was used so much when cooking foods. Once you go raw, salt becomes unnecessary.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Nicola

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2008, 05:52:57 pm »
How can you explain some of the trouble people are having? What about the abnormal digestion of a member on your yahoo group? - that is worrying.

I would love to believe you - as I said; I don't need salt for tast, I am just in a darn  :( >:( ??? :-\ about protein and fat digestion - which begins with our stomach acid, which the body must be able to produce so that we don't have putrefaction (with undigested food...) and many other "abnormal" signals.

Amen.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 02:02:08 am by Craig »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2008, 06:12:33 pm »
How can you explain some of the trouble people are having? What about the abnormal digestion of "ecohe23" on your yahoo group? - that is worrying.

I would love to believe you - as I said; I don't need salt for tast, I am just in a darn  :( >:( ??? :-\ about protein and fat digestion - which begins with our stomach acid, which the body must be able to produce so that we don't have putrefaction (with undigested food...) and many other "abnormal" signals.

Amen.

I believe ecohe has unique health-issues re histamine, among other details. In my own case, I've already long since recovered from past ill-health on cooked-food diets, so I'm not really bothered about  issues like salt etc. My only concern is to get hold of plenty of raw wild meats, raw seafood etc., and that's all I need.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

xylothrill

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2008, 09:02:28 am »
Craig, I asked him upon your welcoming him to this forum. I can rember asking him last year - I have been on this salt mania for a long time - and he then answered, that he had never thought about salt (perhaps I missunderstood; I looked for it on the yahoo group but it's hard to find old answers). I am shore many have "little" problems and just don't track them...or perhaps I am a mania?

Nicola

I do remember Lex stating that recently in his intro thread but I either didn't see his previous mention of it last year or I didn't think it was an important detail to remember. It's okay to be a maniac! I did the same thing when when people would say that they needed carbs to feel good. I also did it when I started getting symptoms of salt deficiency. At the time, there was a discussion about purines possibly being the cause. As you probably already know, I fell off the diet thinking I needed to go omni. That was the beginning of the end for me the first time around. I SHOULD have been asking questions to the group but I didn't. I did however keep searching for the symptoms I had had and found that salt deficiency was the root cause and also that it takes time for the body to adjust to a low salt intake.

My digestion was never compromised (except at the very beginning form eating way too much!) but my hydration was compromised. The first time, It was summer when I started. I added salt and spices as Lex said he did when starting. I didn't make the connection then but when I stopped adding anything to my food is when I started getting symptoms.  When I started back in the fall, when it was cooler, I was able to go quite a while without salt and symptoms until the weather started warming up and I started sweating. Then I found I really craved the salt in my meat. So, from past experience, rather than eat twice as much meat to get the salt, I just started adding a little, and I mean a little bit of sea salt to my meals every two or three days. That took care of the cravings. Had I eaten all the meat that it would have taken to satisfy the craving, I probably would have had digestive problems as I did when I started the diet the first time, when I was eating way too much.

I was VERY surprised by how much people ate when I posed that question on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group. People were eating two or three times as much as me and were 1/2 to 3/4 my weight and I'm VERY active by vocation and by choice. That's why I asked you if you were eating too much. Kristelle has gone through the fast but she was also eating a lot beforehand so maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with eating more to satisfy the need for salt. But, on the other hand, neither of you seem to crave salt.

Craig

 

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2008, 04:18:28 am »
Why is your digestion perfect ???? Why is AV against salt? Why does he recommend grain fed meat? I don't get the storey!
Nicola

By the way, Nicola, I should make a correction. It seems that Aajonus is,  at least, these days, not in favour of grainfed meat as such. I checked with the Primal Diet Yahoo Group, and one of them who actually knows Aajonus informed me that Aajonus had told them that  he views grassfed organic raw meat as being the best meat with raw grainfed meat coming a distant second, with anything cooked, regardless of whether it's grassfed or grainfed, being considered as  something to be avoided. So he doesn't recommend raw grainfed meat as such, it's just that he views it as better than cooked meat.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Nicola

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2008, 07:06:17 pm »
TylerDurden

I have been eating all tough, connective gristle; swallowing all parts of the leg of mutton - like you claim to do. You say that this gets digested? I find it adds to the stool - like fiber!!!

Some of the suet goes threw as well. I wonder how many carnivores eat other tough meat than beef (one can eat tender meat and say this diet works - eat soft fat and say it all gets digested...).

We live from what get's digested and not from what adds to the stool - perhaps raw carnivores don't put on weight because of this?

What about cramps in the foot (I have a very little one some times in bed) - does this ever happen to others? Salt does not seem to help digest or perhaps this needs a long time to happen? Perhaps I am to alkaline (this water I am drinking?).

I feel eating all the tough is extra work for the body - my weight is kind of a bit down.

We need to talk about other meat and parts of animals - beef does not give a clear picture.

Nicola

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2008, 08:04:16 pm »
TylerDurden

I have been eating all tough, connective gristle; swallowing all parts of the leg of mutton - like you claim to do. You say that this gets digested? I find it adds to the stool - like fiber!!!

Some of the suet goes threw as well. I wonder how many carnivores eat other tough meat than beef (one can eat tender meat and say this diet works - eat soft fat and say it all gets digested...).

We live from what get's digested and not from what adds to the stool - perhaps raw carnivores don't put on weight because of this?

What about cramps in the foot (I have a very little one some times in bed) - does this ever happen to others? Salt does not seem to help digest or perhaps this needs a long time to happen? Perhaps I am to alkaline (this water I am drinking?).

I feel eating all the tough is extra work for the body - my weight is kind of a bit down.

We need to talk about other meat and parts of animals - beef does not give a clear picture.

Nicola

If the suet you're getting doesn't work, then either buy suet from a different (grassfed) source, or buy different kinds of fat, such as marrow. I've never had any problems with marrow. And you don't have to eat all the gristle if you don't want to.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

carnivore

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2008, 08:26:44 pm »
For me, I simply can't digest tough meat : too difficult to chew. It stays in the stomach for hours, and I evacuate it in my stools.

Marrow is by far the best fat I can eat. Better than butter, without the drawbacks. But bone does not contain a lot of fat! Our ancestors had to be really strong to open them without a saw.
I also find any hard fat difficult to digest.

As a butcher, I have access to the entire carcass of pork, lamb, beef and poultry (chicken, goose, duck). Bone marrow, liver, heart, brain, and some particular fat (fat around the kidney of pork, fat under the skin of lamb, etc.) are my favourite. Today, I eat some half dried lamb kidney and that was salty and delicious. 

My leg cramps are still present, with or without salt.

I wonder if one can find all the necessary nutrients one needs in land animals. We probably need some nutrients in wild seafood that we can't find in domesticated animals. I have much more energy since I ate oysters yesterday.


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2008, 08:34:07 pm »
Cramps can be a sign of magnesium deficiency. You might want to see if eating raw pumpkin seeds does the trick. Of course, avoiding dairy helps too, given the excess calcium in it.

I truly envy your job. It seems the only people who have it easy on this diet are farmers, butchers and the like, as they are much closer to the food-source. Here in the UK< draconian restrictions forced through by the government and the EU really restrict our freedom of choice as regards obtaining the right foods.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

carnivore

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2008, 08:53:46 pm »
In France, we can't get the brain and the spinal cord of beef from the slaughterhouse. These are the most precious part of the animal!

Sometimes, we kill for us our own pork and lamb (beef is too huge!). In secret of course.

I choose to work in a farm partly because I want to know what I eat!

Magnesium supplementation has never do anything for my cramps.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2008, 09:04:42 pm »
I'm very lucky in that I'm able to get hold of raw brains from time to time, despite the UK's banning of the sale of brain and spinal cord. I mean, it's ridiculous, if we want to eat a certain food, we should be allowed to do so.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2008, 09:10:33 pm »
I get cramps in my neck/jaw and legs, I get bad cramps after surfing long hours. Although cramps when I'm surfing mean get out you've had enough.

Cramps have lessoned for me but still there...cramps are a hard one, I tried the no dairy, pumpkin seeds, magnesium supplements route. I feel adding blood helps me, I would like to add more, i think more blood is going to be good for me!

Bloody is very salty, maybe this is the answer. Cramps are linked to lactic acid so more minerals means less acid right? ???

Being a butcher this would allow you to get access to blood, I would love to hear from you if you can add blood to your diet and if this helps your cramps.


Andrew



« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 11:24:55 pm by wodgina6722 »
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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2008, 11:00:41 pm »
Regarding "ecohe23", she has a unique condition.  She says she has had a hysterectomy.  I think we have to discuss missing internal organs and special disabilities and current diseases people are trying to solve.

As for my digestion of fats and meats, my contribution is I try to eat animal foods only 1 meal a day.  The rest of the day I just graze on fruits like papaya (helps digest), pineapples (helps digest), coconuts for the juice and the fats in the meats.

I also do not bother buying tough meats.  I just buy the tender stuff.  I want to enjoy my food.  sirloin, top round, liver, kidneys... all tender.

So far so good.
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Satya

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2008, 11:38:49 pm »
Regarding "ecohe23", she has a unique condition.  She says she has had a hysterectomy.  I think we have to discuss missing internal organs and special disabilities and current diseases people are trying to solve.

Oh yes, this is a major, major consideration.  Not only are organs removed in a hysterectomy, but the ability to produce hormones and such changes the body a tremendous amount.  Intestinal displacement can result among many other problems.

I mainly eat tender cuts.  Didn't the natives even recently go in for the tender organs and muscles, throwing the rest to the dogs?

xylothrill

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2008, 02:21:01 am »
Dear Members,

Please refrain from discussing personal issues of members from other forums or groups who aren't members here. It can be confusing to our members who aren't also members of those other groups or forums.

To quote our registration agreement:
Quote
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is...invasive of a person's privacy.

A discussion of a personal nature is fine so long as the person is a member here and has posted such info for our members to see otherwise those discussions are better left where they originated.
 
Also fine is to quote posts of an informational, non-personal nature so long as the source and author are cited.

Regards,

Craig

Offline Nicola

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2008, 03:50:44 am »
Cramps can be a sign of magnesium deficiency. You might want to see if eating raw pumpkin seeds does the trick. Of course, avoiding dairy helps too, given the excess calcium in it.

Lex:

I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms.  I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.

There's a lot of debate about salt.  It's documented that many Indian tribes - especially in South America - would make regular trips to the ocean to get salt.  The traditional Inuits also prepared their meals with, and drank brackish water which contains a low concentration of salt.  Most of the African tribes consume large amounts of blood as a staple which contains most of the salt in an animal's body.

Our modern meat processing plants remove the animal's blood so we lose that source of salt.  I'm also not so sure that paleo humans didn't consume salt if it was available.  Almost all animals will use a saltlick, or lick salt rich soil if it is available.  It appears that we need at least some source of sodium chloride in our diets.

Compared to most people I don't get much salt.  Based on what I add, it's only about 1 1/2 to 2 grams per day.

Pumpkin seeds? I would tell Lex to add pumpkin seeds to his mix; he might poke his GI system with them and cause a little trouble...but as long as they are raw that will not happen???

Nicola

Offline Nicola

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2008, 04:05:08 am »
For me, I simply can't digest tough meat : too difficult to chew. It stays in the stomach for hours, and I evacuate it in my stools.


I can eat lots of my mutton leg and I did it like a carnivore but that is never all digested; Geoff are you shore that you digest all? Lex mentioned that this did not work with him and he reported about animals poos having "fiber" in them.

Carnivore your cramps are just part of the whole picture - you should be able to get fresh blood instead of extra salt.

I have been eating aged kidney; it tastes salty but I don't know if this is any good?

Nicola

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2008, 04:08:07 am »
I digest suet provided it's of good quality. No problems with the other stuff. I love aged kidney.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Nicola

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2008, 04:31:07 am »
If the suet you're getting doesn't work, then either buy suet from a different (grassfed) source, or buy different kinds of fat, such as marrow. I've never had any problems with marrow. And you don't have to eat all the gristle if you don't want to.

You have told me this before - so you think my body is playing tricks with me and will not digest it all because...perhaps if I ask Grandad (97 years old) to send me some English suet then I will not find any bits in my stool any more! With marrow this can happen too.

I am eating the gristle because you clamed that it gets digested - I, Carnivore, Andrew and ...put words in to pratice and the result is  ???

The problem is, I don't wan't to believe that I am banging my head against a brick wall - like if I practice, then my body will get the message!

Nicola

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2008, 04:37:13 am »
If you don't like the gristle, don't eat it. I love the stuff, and I have no problems with it. Everyone is different.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Nicola

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Re: Protein and fat digestion
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2008, 04:41:49 am »
Lex connected his leg cramps (in the night) and other problems to lack of salt; by adding extra salt to his meat mix things got better.

I have asked others - some of them eat extra salt and still have leg cramps. I googled and can not find a clear answer; they are all not built up on a paleo diet of meat and fat...

The following answer regarding "salt" is from a person on meat and fat with problems (IBS...) and also complains of diarrhea / protein and fat not getting digested (he does not eat completely raw and has only just started with beef and suet; before he was eating dairy and eggs/chicken):

Yes, I do react to salt with emotional anxiety if I overdo it, so I limit it, but still use it to help support my adrenals and also to ensure I have adequate chloride to produce HCl in the stomach since I do not drink the raw blood of animals (which usually provides a rich source of chloride).

It also helps to stimulate HCl production. A lot of my digestive issues stem from low-HCl and incomplete food breakdown. I often notice small chunks of undigested food in my stool, which indicate things aren't breaking down completely  I try supplemental HCl, but too much irritates my delicate gastric and intestinal mucosal lining.

I do not react with cramping or water retention from the salt I use because it comes with a myriad of other naturally occurring trace minerals and is not refined in any way. There is a big difference between refined and processed table salts and the natural ones I use which are 1) not processed or heated in any way, thus preserving their molecular structure/integrity, and 2) come with a high quality compliment of naturally occurring trace minerals that balance the sodium and chloride.


Well I think a few or a lot have problems and do not track them down: all our bodys need to produce stomach acid and many don't drink blood...some add salt others don't need or the mind will not let them. Many say they don't have problems with digestion with or with out salt but they do have cramps or other problems.

Perhaps other carnivores can relate...with and with out salt?

Craig, I thought the heart would beat more with extra salt - more pressure - water retention. If you didn't sweat...would you still add extra salt? Did you go for a period with out salt vs. with salt? How do you get on with water retention? Why is salt good for the adrenals - I thought more pressure would influence the adrenals in a negative way?

We have a member who lives on the Philippines; he must sweat and does not eat salt - perhaps his children don't get any extra salt as well?

It is hard to get a clear picture - the body gives messages and we don't understand or just ignore them.

Minerals are more interesting than carbs (to me); minerals are whats left of the body when we are no more!

Nicola


 

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