Raw Bone Meal

[oxman1204]

Does anyone make this with cheap equipment ? How do you find it digests and do you think it is easily abosrbed, I would think this would be something you should take with water like medicinal clay or in raw milk,probably best to eat with a fat like butter,cream,beef/lamb/goat/pork/duck fat etc. But has anyone noticed improved mineral status using this ?

[kurite]

Heres a link:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/raw-omni-plus-tooth-healing/

[Michael]

Hopefully Van will chip in with his experiences about homemade bonemeal.  You should be able to find various threads on the subject if you search the archives.

I have only recently started to experiment with grinding bones myself following Vans advice.  He suggests obtaining a farrier's rasp/file (used for shaping/filing horses hooves!) and preferably rib bones stripped of as much soft outer material as possible.  Hold the rasp/file vertically onto a chopping board and rub the bone against it's sharp grooved surface in an up/down motion.  Consume grindings immediately.  Clean the rasp/file with a dry wire brush.  Keep bone and rasp/file in freezer.

Personally, I've found it quite difficult and time consuming so far but Van insists it takes him 5 mins per day.  I'm sure he'll share his far greater experiences along with any benefits he may have noticed.

Update: Oh, Kurite must've posted at the same time as I!    Yes, that's one of the links.  I think you'll find it mentioned elsewhere too.

[RawZi]

    How about chicken bones?  Anyone use a meat grinder that grinds their bones well enough to eat it mixed?  How does that work?  What grinder works for you? 

[Michael]

I haven't tried chicken bones RawZi but it may be worth a go.  I'm not sure that my meat grinder/mincer would work but the VitaMix/VitaPrep 3 may be a possibility.  It's supposed to be able to grind wood to a sawdust but I'm reluctant to try it in case it breaks the machine.

[RawZi]

meat grinder/mincer would work but the VitaMix/VitaPrep 3 may be a possibility.  It's supposed to be able to grind wood

    Would you mind telling me which meat grinder you have?  I'll have to look at that VitaPrep 3.  It seemed to me Vitamixes were not made like they used to be a couple of decades ago, no longer sturdy was my problem with ones after '99.

    I want chicken bones for both me and my cats, and maybe my son if he'll ever eat chicken (which I doubt).  He could really use the calcium.  Between the time he was fruitarian erspecially and his neurological condition, he's used up so much.

[RawZi]

    Is there a machine that will grind something like bison bone slowly?

    I've never eaten bone-meal.  I assume it would digest better that dolomite or calcium lactate pills.  I never took the latter, but I think I took dolomite as a child.

[Michael]

Would you mind telling me which meat grinder you have?

I don't know if the grinder/mincer that I have is available in the US but it is a brand called Buffalo as seen here: http://www.nisbets.co.uk/products/productdetail.asp?productCode=K335.

I expect that you're right about the decreasing quality of Vitamix machines RawZi.  But, I've had my VitaPrep for a couple of years without problems so far although I don't use it a great deal to be honest.  At least in the US they do come with long warranties so should never represent a problem.  I would expect the VitaPrep to be able manage chicken bones but haven't tried it.  I would imagine chicken bonemeal would prove incredibly helpful to your son as well as yourself and cats.  It would certainly digest and be far more bioavailable than commercial dolomite or Ca tablets of various forms.  In addition, of course, it would contain the full gamut of bone matrix complex nutrients (known and unknown!) rather than specific elemental extracts which could prove absolutely vital.

I don't know of a machine that could slowly grind bone but would be interested in such a machine myself.  I seem to recall that Lex constructed such a machine himself for his jerky grinding.  Perhaps he could advise?

[RawZi]

    Cool.  Thank you, good idea Michael.

[Michael]

No worries RawZi.  BTW, I just googled for a machine capable of grinding chicken bones and skimmed various random forums.  There seemed to be a general consensus that a Vitamix would do the job or even a good food processor.  A high quality meat grinder was considered the best method, however.  Of course, I can't vouch for any of those methods myself as I have no experience of it.  I just thought I'd let you know! 

[raw]

not necessarily need raw bone meal when you can seat under the sun. i better prefer to get raw bone meal in the winter.

[donrad]

Why raw? The minerals which are the value in bones can be extracted but I havn't found a way to pulverize without a sledge hammer. Don't think the minerals are affected by heat or my stock pot, just made more available.

[Michael]

That's an interesting point well raised donrad.  I'm also of the understanding that minerals themselves remain undamaged by the appliance of heat.

My concern with bone stock is not the minerals themselves but any other heat created toxins which may be produced from other nutrients present such as proteins.

Perhaps Tyler is aware of any studies on any heat created toxins present in bone broth?

[SkinnyDevil]

1) Where does one get human-grade raw bone meal (store bought)?

2) Does anyone have any data on the functional difference between type of bone (say, chicken vs cow)?

[Michael]

1) Where does one get human-grade raw bone meal (store bought)?

I think this has come up in previous tooth healing threads and, if I recall correctly, some members (I think PaleoPhil?) have tried using Dr Ron's bone formula as found here: http://www.drrons.com/bone-calcium-from-grassfed-New-Zealand-cattle.htm.

It sounds like it's a pretty good product to me although it would, of course, work out far more expensive than grinding your own raw bones as discussed in various threads by Van.

[RawZi]

googled for a machine capable of grinding chicken bones and skimmed various random forums.  There seemed to be a general consensus that a Vitamix would do the job or even a good food processor.  A high quality meat grinder was considered the best

    I'm looking over some meat grinders and believe it or not, grain mills.  I have two small grain mills myself, from years ago when I used to chef.  The grain mills I'm looking at are more expensive than the meat grinders.  I'm thinking they're stronger.  Anyone here ever try grinding meat or chicken bones in a grain grinder? 

Does anyone have any data on the functional difference between type of bone (say, chicken vs cow)?

    I don't have data.  Bird bones are light and porous.  I think they may have more collagen too.  I'm sure there are lots of differences.

[TylerDurden]

Perhaps Tyler is aware of any studies on any heat created toxins present in bone broth?

There's little scientific data on bone broths since the vast majority of the population don't consume that stuff any more. However, bone broths still do contain heat-created toxins. A bit less than other kinds of cooked foods, I assume, since advanced glycation end products are formed in fewer quantities if the animal foods are cooked in moisture.

[Michael]

There's little scientific data on bone broths since the vast majority of the population don't consume that stuff any more. However, bone broths still do contain heat-created toxins. A bit less than other kinds of cooked foods, I assume, since advanced glycation end products are formed in fewer quantities if the animal foods are cooked in moisture.

It's my understanding that many of the heat-created toxins are produced in the presence of protein and carbs.  I would suppose, therefore, that the negligible levels of these in bone would result in significantly lower creation of heat-created toxins.

Is Alphagruis (our resident scientist) still around to lend his expertise and comment on this?

I'm thinking they're stronger.  Anyone here ever try grinding meat or chicken bones in a grain grinder?

I've never owned or used a grain miller unfortunately.  I would be surprised if it was suitable for bone but it's worth a try.  What type do you have RawZi?  I would expect a high quality mill with stone grinding plates to be the most suitable.  I'm not sure if ceramic would be up to the task.  Could you test the idea on one of your existing grinders?  If it breaks then at least you'd never be tempted to use it for the production of neolithic foods! 

I don't have data.  Bird bones are light and porous.  I think they may have more collagen too.  I'm sure there are lots of differences.

I would also suspect more nutrients would be available particularly if cartilage often found were also included.

[TylerDurden]

No, A left the forum, going on a trip abroad. As for heat-created toxins, that's all wrong, as they are also formed in fats as well as carbs and proteins. Alpha-Lipoxidation Endproducts(ALEs) are such an example. No idea re bones - all I can recall is dog-owners reporting that their animals could easily swallow some kinds of bones raw, but would choke on cooked bones.

[SkinnyDevil]

Why raw? The minerals which are the value in bones can be extracted but I havn't found a way to pulverize without a sledge hammer. Don't think the minerals are affected by heat or my stock pot, just made more available.

Perhaps, but it's not just minerals you get from bone is it? What about the fiber that is altered? Dogs, for example, do well eating raw bone, but vets always say that cooked bones are dangerous to their digestive tract.

[yuli]

Perhaps, but it's not just minerals you get from bone is it? What about the fiber that is altered? Dogs, for example, do well eating raw bone, but vets always say that cooked bones are dangerous to their digestive tract.

I think thats just because the smaller cooked bones splinter when broken, and can get lodged in their throat. You can give large cooked bones to your dog no problem, just not things like chicken bones.

Mmmm....I enjoy bone broth, after I finish all my marrow I don't wan't to throw away the bones, seems like a waste. So I always make a big broth after, after the broth is almost done I stir in a few egg whites (cause those are the only animal parts I won't eat raw), garlic, beet liquid, hot pepper and shoyu (it tastes like an asian egg-drop style soup to me), I find it enjoyable (sometimes nothing beats a HOT SOUP when you need it) and doesn't give me any problems that I noticed. Out of all the cooked foods bone broth is probably not only the least harmful but also pretty good for you.
Sure it may have some toxins, so does breathing the air, I think it has relatively few compared to most cooked food.

[Hannibal]

Out of all the cooked foods bone broth is probably not only the least harmful but also pretty good for you.

I don't think so.
IMO there's nothing good in them.

[yuli]

IMO there's nothing good in them.

Really? Nothing at all?
I am no scientist but bone broth contains:
Calcium
Phosphorus
Magnesium
Potassium
Sulfate
Fluoride
Collagen
Chondroitin sulfate
Hyaluronic acid
Glycine....etc
Lots of trace minerals...

The minerals leek into the water from the bone and can be easily absorbed...I read making the water more acidic will cause even more minerals to leak in...so like adding some ACV or lemon.

Also bone broth is used in both traditional and new medicine, how can there be nothing good in it...I myself feel quite good from it...but not good from eating many cooked foods. Some people on here eat rendered fat and say its ok...IMO bone broth is better then that.

[Hannibal]

You can eat softer raw bones and get those minerals without any drawbacks.
Traditional medicine is neolithic one - it has got so many elements that are health hazardous.

[KD]

Bone broths were some of the first cooked foods I tried re-integrating into my diet after being as 100% for many months again. I felt really queasy and nauseous had a sore throat etc...havn't had the same issues with occasional cooked muscle meats. Too (cooked) greasy and dense I guess. I'm sure there is some value in the minerals for some. I do believe cooking can make certain things more 'bio-available'...whether they are necessary or harmless is another argument.