Is Fruit Meant For Man

[goodsamaritan]

The problem is that Vitalis is mentioning an old canard favoured by ZCers like William, that much of modern fruits are overly inbred etc. This is a very biased argument as the same argument can(and should as well) be used for all domesticated meats as they come from animals which have become severely inbred over many millenia of domestication, not even counting the severely negative effects of modern artificial insemination in that regard.

Lovely observation, Geoff.

Seems land animals these days are highly selected for certain qualities.  This was so eloquently written in Guns Germs and Steel by Jarred Diamond.

Now ocean creatures are a more wild lot with lots of variety and sometimes more potent nutrition than land animals.  I love it at 12noon to 2pm in our wet market when all that ocean bounty pours in every day of the week.  It's just awesome.

[KD]

I understand terms like "meant for" are usually just short hand phrases but I think it's a bad point to start off a discussion. The real questions I'm concerned with are whether fruits are healthy for me, and the two sources of information I see as informative towards answering that are the history of humans eating them as well as scientific information on what happens in the body when they are eaten. With the evidence of today I think it's pretty obvious that fruits had a relatively small role in human diets pre-agriculture and should therefore have a relatively small role now. I believe this is backed up with the science on insulin and everything else related to a large sugar intake (whether it's "natural" fruit sugar or not).

This is exactly what I was trying to say, not that fruits are NOT meant for us

---


Yuli, Miles: too much work for me dudes, sorry. my initial reason for bringing it up was in dealing with fruits with mammoth seeds, like mango, duian, jackfruit etc.. that are ALSO incredibly sweet, rather than to engage whether seeds eating/swallowing/spitting is good or bad.

Vitalis says "Fruits ARE for man...."

He didn't say that. He said almost the opposite (see above). People are apparently missing the fact that the video was created by raw vegans Matt Monarch and Angela Stokes Monarch, not some anti-fruit folks and that Vitalis extols wild fruits in the video.

hmm ok. I don't know how once again you manage to misconstrue what I wrote as these are two SEPARATE comments that I agree with him AND that I agree with the title.. I already made the comment that his perspective is coming from an omnivorous viewpoint that does not demonize fruit itself, but that DOES make the point that even wild uncultivated fruits are not MEANT to be a significant part of our diet, and that consuming even these foods from wild sources can only be done by basically artificaly manipulated conditions. I'm of the perspective that even this isn't altogether negative (and even the possiblity that fruits could have other functions in our modern diet), but the points about fruits abundance and other such rationalizations are themselves false.

The problem is that Vitalis is mentioning an old canard favoured by ZCers like William, that much of modern fruits are overly inbred etc. This is a very biased argument as the same argument can(and should as well) be used for all domesticated meats as they come from animals which have become severely inbred over many millenia of domestication, not even counting the severely negative effects of modern artificial insemination in that regard.

Almost all of his information to my knowledge is based on the problems of cultivated foods (including meats AND plants - he has similar videos agains 'vegetables' and cattle) and selecting as much uncultivated and wild food and eating as our ancestors. My impression is that for him this is far more important than raw, carnivory, or any other concept and advocates traditional practices that include cooking, dairy etc... He does not believe in eating meat from cattle and other livestock if it can be avoided. I've yet to be exposed to any other non-vegan 'guru' that is as against domestic farmed plants and animals

[yon yonson]

yeah i remember daniel talking about only eating wild meats in that video where he east raw bison. i didn't really think about it too much at the time, but lately i've been eating mostly/all wild venison and grass fed bison and i get it now. today i had some of my usual grassfed beef brisket. it doesn't even compare. hardly any taste compared to wild meats. hopefully i can keep finding sources of wild meats.

[dsohei]

+1 on the "wild" meats or farmed animals that are close or identical to their ancient ancestors.
currently i'm doing a rotation & elimination diet instructed by my low-carb paleo-advising naturopathic doctor to finally begin to cure my gut dysfunction and mild rheumatoid arthritis and chronic fatigue. this entails eating red meat, or 1 type of meat only once every 4 days. i've noticed that after 2 days of not eating red meat i get depressed, angry, annoyed and lethargic. the poultry, fish, and eggs just don't do it for me no mater how wild/grass fed/pastured they are!
i am about to mail order flash frozen venison/elk/deer (multiple versions of deer), bison, yak, and ostrich for the variety since i can get lamb and beef locally.

[TylerDurden]

Well, being pro-wild foods  in general is a good sign, it`s mainly Rawists who seem to hold that view, though.

[KD]

yeah, FWIW I totally agree with you that that argument - particularly from those that support grain-fed meats over food items obviously consumed at least tens of thousands of years ago- is poor. I mean they still might be right in a metabolic sense (hopefully I don't get grilled on terminology here) as far as what is right for them to eat, but there is certainly some hypocrisy there.

[PaleoPhil]

Well, being pro-wild foods  in general is a good sign, it`s mainly Rawists who seem to hold that view, though.

OK, so now that the misconception that he only talks about eating foods that are as close to wild as feasible when it comes to fruits has been put to rest, do you have any other objections to moving this thread out of Hot Topics and putting it one of the raw Paleo sections? I thought it was your opinion that we should try to promote raw Paleo so it will be considered more mainstream? If so, shouldn't we be celebrating a video that's pro raw and pro Paleo and welcoming a new ally instead of putting it into Hot Topics? Granted, I don't know a lot about this Vitalis guy, but I do know he has been becoming increasingly raw Paleo and it seems counterproductive to tag his video as anti-RP without a good reason.

You could change the title to something less misleading avoid further confusion. Perhaps something like "Daniel Vitalis promotes raw Paleo including raw wild fruits"?

[TylerDurden]

Well, the hot topics forum is for controversial stuff. I agree with the notion of wild foods being better, but, given that many RVAFers don`t have access to any raw wild game, I don`t think it`s a good idea to denounce all cultivated foods, as such. At least raw, grassfed beef is better than any cooked foods, for example.

[PaleoPhil]

 

Well, the hot topics forum is for controversial stuff. I agree with the notion of wild foods being better, but, given that many RVAFers don`t have access to any raw wild game, I don`t think it`s a good idea to denounce all cultivated foods, as such. At least raw, grassfed beef is better than any cooked foods, for example.

He does not denounce raw grassfed beef, he recommends it, because it's closer to wild than feedlot beef. If you watch the video carefully and check out his other videos and writings, you'll see that he isn't saying that everyone should only eat wild foods, because that simply wouldn't be possible for most people. Instead, he's recommending that people try to eat as close to wild as they can. In other words, just like none of us can truly eat Paleo by hunting, butchering and feasting on a wooly mammoth and eating prehistoric berries, so most of us cannot eat only wild foods, but we can try to move closer to eating wild/Paleo.

It looks like Vitalis is the first public figure who advocates raw Paleo, though I don't know all the details of the diet he recommends.

[TylerDurden]

Strictly speaking, being authentic rawpalaeo does not require us to eat palaeo-era animals like mammoths. A 100 percent diet of raw wild foods is really only what is required.

[Hannibal]

you'll see that he isn't saying that everyone should only eat wild foods, because that simply wouldn't be possible for most people.

Even if it was possible all the wild fruits would be quickly eaten and there would be a huge scarcity.
The same would be with the wild animals.

[Raw Kyle]

Strictly speaking, being authentic rawpalaeo does not require us to eat palaeo-era animals like mammoths. A 100 percent diet of raw wild foods is really only what is required.

And who made that up? I would think if you were being 100% strict about it a paleolithic diet would be...a diet consisting of 100% paleolithic food.

[Sully]

How about a raw wild diet, consisting of the closest thing you can get to wild foods  And eating them in season.

Concord grapes instead of seedless grapes etc, some people don't have time to hunt or gather. Buying domestic foods closest to wild ancestors would be an ideal alternative.

Raw Hunter Gatherer Diet sounds more fitting.

[PaleoPhil]

Even if it was possible all the wild fruits would be quickly eaten and there would be a huge scarcity.
The same would be with the wild animals.

I agree.

How about a raw wild diet, consisting of the closest thing you can get to wild foods   And eating them in season.

Concord grapes instead of seedless grapes etc, some people don't have time to hunt or gather. Buying domestic foods closest to wild ancestors would be an ideal alternative.

Raw Hunter Gatherer Diet sounds more fitting.

I agree, as does Vitalis in this and other videos, though he isn't purely raw Paleo. I'm curious how close to our approach he is at this point. It sounds like he is moving in our direction, though some of his products are clearly not Paleo, and I don't know if they're all considered truly "raw" or not.

Strictly speaking, being authentic rawpalaeo does not require us to eat palaeo-era animals like mammoths. A 100 percent diet of raw wild foods is really only what is required.

By that definition this video qualifies as "authentic" raw Paleo. He advocated raw wild fruits while also stating that it's OK to eat some wild-like fruits and even some more domesticated fruits when not enough wild fruits are available. It also meets the definition of raw Paleo of this forum ("choosing a more historically natural approach to diet, fitness and lifestyle").

[goodsamaritan]

Even if it was possible all the wild fruits would be quickly eaten and there would be a huge scarcity.
The same would be with the wild animals.

In the tropics if we didn't have civilization that cut down trees, paved roads and made farmland, we'd have too much fruit for people.

Even today during seasons of certain fruits, they'd just rot.  Not enough buyers.  Not enough consumers.  And every month a new fruit is in season.

Same thing with fishing with nets, the people in the fishing village fish way more than they can eat.

[Hannibal]

In the tropics if we didn't have civilization that cut down trees, paved roads and made farmland, we'd have too much fruit for people.

Yeah, I agree.
But here in Poland there's much less wild fruits - primarily bilberries, cranberries, cowberries, a little of raspberries, blackberries. There are also some wild apples and pears but I haven't found them yet. Besides they are only in summer.
Even if there were much more forests there would still be a scarcity.

[ster546464@yahoo.co.uk]

durianrider is clearly watching these forums, as he made a counter video to it , probably after seeing this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFojZ4agaRM

[ster546464@yahoo.co.uk]

should be noted, vitalis does not label himself any diet, but does eat raw meat. he also promotes alcohol in moderation, dairy if its the right type, and even cooked food.

he made a fascinating video exploring the history of natural drugs and alcohol and how its been used throughout the ages, and for people to dismiss thousands of years of history and uses of alcohol by saying they will never drink it because they are raw paleo, is just a bit silly.

Vitalis used to be a raw vegan, but he also studied the psychology behind raw veganism and studied things like eating disorders and identity and ego, and he realised that raw veganism is also bad for you mentally aswell as physically. Simply labelling yourself to any diet, or having your identity to any diet, or having your identity as someone who avoids certain foods, will only lead to eating disorders and mental illness, most prevalent in raw vegan communities.

[PaleoPhil]

durianrider is clearly watching these forums, as he made a counter video to it , probably after seeing this thread.

The people in DR's forum tipped him off in the forum about Vitalis' video. DR replied by writing something about he would have some fun with it and he apparently did.

Some background for everyone: The question that Matt Monarch asked Vitalis in the video was inspired by some earlier accusations made by fruitarians against Vitalis after they saw some of his Youtube videos. Matt was giving Daniel the opportunity to refute the accusation, not accusing him of it himself.

should be noted, vitalis does not label himself any diet, but does eat raw meat. he also promotes alcohol in moderation, dairy if its the right type, and even cooked food.

Thanks for the additional info. I knew he was eating colostrum powder, but didn't know he was eating other dairy too. What type of alcoholic beverage(s) does he drink?

I thought in one of his videos he said he was moving more toward Paleo, but I don't remember which one. Have you seen him say that? Of course, his idea of "Paleo" could be very different from ours and he clearly isn't very strict about it if he is. Of course, not being strict is part of his current philosophy. That's OK if your body can take it, but some people have to be strict to avoid negative consequences.

Vitalis used to be a raw vegan, but he also studied the psychology behind raw veganism and studied things like eating disorders and identity and ego, and he realised that raw veganism is also bad for you mentally aswell as physically. Simply labelling yourself to any diet, or having your identity to any diet, or having your identity as someone who avoids certain foods, will only lead to eating disorders and mental illness, most prevalent in raw vegan communities.

That would be true of all human beings who are aware of what they eat, since everyone eats a "diet" of some sort. Maybe he means extreme diets?

[ster546464@yahoo.co.uk]

I agree, even if he is paleo, he does believe people should not be strict about any diet they are on, unless it's obvious things like avoiding white sugar and white flour etc but they come naturally.

I'll find the video, one was hosted on naturalnews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZJ_wlOYAmM , watch all 6

He didn't say what alcohol in particular he drinks, just said fermented ones that are not pasteurised.

Are you a member of 30bananasday, (should be called 70 bananas a dayy, anyway).
How else would you know they were taking about daniel vitalis on that forum ?

[ForTheHunt]

durianrider is clearly watching these forums, as he made a counter video to it , probably after seeing this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFojZ4agaRM

You can subscribe to these videos and more likely he's on the mailing list of the raw food world.

Anywho, there's clearly something wrong with DurianRider. Either he's just one of the hugest insecure douchebags I've ever seen, or he's mentally ill.

[kurite]

...Bananas don't want to propagate through suckers DR! We just destroyed their ability to reproduce through viable seeds.

[PaleoPhil]

Are you a member of 30bananasday, (should be called 70 bananas a dayy, anyway).
How else would you know they were taking about daniel vitalis on that forum ?

By just taking a look-see. You don't need to register to check out their forum. Some of the posts are so outrageous they're good for laughs. Some include very sad stories of deteriorating people, with others telling them "It's just detox--eat more sweet raw fruit." It helps me to not eat too much fruit--my addiction--when I see how they've fecked up themselves with the crazy amounts of fruit they eat. DR says he's up to 70 bananas a day nowadays.

[kurite]

By just taking a look-see. You don't need to register to check out their forum. Some of the posts are so outrageous they're good for laughs. Some include very sad stories of deteriorating people, with others telling them "It's just detox--eat more sweet raw fruit." It helps me to not eat too much fruit--my addiction--when I see how they've fecked up themselves with the crazy amounts of fruit they eat. DR says he's up to 70 bananas a day nowadays.

I still read up on that forum (although I dont post). Its really funny how I use to make myself believe half of the shet they talk about. On the other hand they also occasionally bring up good points for us paleos to talk about.

[goodsamaritan]

I still read up on that forum (although I dont post). Its really funny how I use to make myself believe half of the shet they talk about. On the other hand they also occasionally bring up good points for us paleos to talk about.

What are those good points?